Chasing Consciousness Freddy Drabble

What technological solutions can mitigate our ecological and economic crises? Why are horizontally integrated 'smart' data sharing networks so important? What are 'Glocalisation' and Bio-regional governance? Will we rise to the challenge in time to survive the next extinction event?

Today we have the technological solutions to our economic and ecological crisis offered by the Third Industrial Revolution to consider. Some may jump to the conclusion that technology and industrialisation are what got us into this mess in the first place and depending on my mood on any one day I might agree with you, but there’s no turning back the clock on the scientific and technological revolutions, so if you can’t beat it then reform it; And many social elements of the digital and internet revolution seem to have started doing just that, quite independently. That said it has been the campaign and deep vision of my guest today for more than 40 years to go further than just talking about it, to push beyond political divides by prioritising life over blind growth and productivity, and get big entities like governments and trade federations to start thinking like this.

He is of course the economist, social theorist, activist and author of 21 books, Jeremy Rifkin. His work focuses on the impact of scientific and technological changes on the economy, the workforce, society, and the environment. Today we’ll be focusing on this new book the “Age of Resilience”, his 2014 book “The Zero Marginal Cost Society”, and his 2011 book “The Third Industrial Revolution”; Rifkin has been an advisor to the leadership of the European Union since 2000 and several other European heads of state, particularly on ushering in the smart, green revolution; he has advised the Peoples Republic of China on the build out and scale up of the Internet in a sustainable low-carbon economy; And he is currently advising the European Commission on the deployment of the Smart Europe initiative.

What we discuss:
00:00 Intro.
06:20 Dysfunctional economic system from 1st and 2nd and Industrial Revolution.
08:00 Exponential Climate change feedback loop from industrialisation.
08:30 New Communication, Energy, logistics and water paradigm changes alter society radically.
10:20 Infrastructure paradigms define our world view.
15:00 Dropping productivity and efficiency after 2008.
17:50 Near-marginal cost economy e.g Solar, wind, internet commerce.
20:00 Jeremy’s 3rd Industrial Revolution vision, all at near zero marginal cost.
21:30 Component 1: Communication via the internet.
22:30 Component 2: Energy internet - sharing surplus globally.
23:55 Component 3: Logistics internet fed by the energy internet.
24:30 Component 4: The Water internet.
31:00 The 3IR infrastructure system is by its nature distributed using data over the internet.
38:00 "The Age of Resilience" Book.
38:20 Biophilia, Eco-consciousness, and an empathic society.
44:10 “Periods of Happiness.. are the black pages of history” Hegel.
47:00 Mirror neurones and empathic neurocircuitry.
55:00 Extinction events lead to unity.
55:50 Shadow 1: Big data. Can this common be democratised?
01:02:52 Bio-regional governance.
01:04:45 “Glocalisation”.
01:19:00 Shadow 2: The internet business model.
01:29:40 Shadow 3: No motivation for corporations to move from multinational investment to ‘glocal’ investment.
01:39:00 Differences between Claus Schwab’s “4th Industrial Revolution” and Jeremy’s 3rd.
01:50:00 The Ginsburg “Moloch” allegory.

Jeremy Rifkin, “The Age of Resilience: Reimagining Existence on a Rewilding Earth”
https://search.app.goo.gl/g97t6pL
Jeremy Rifkin, “The Third Industrial Revolution”
https://search.app.goo.gl/gbMdqE9
Jeremy Rifkin, “The Zero Marginal Cost SocietyThe Zero Marginal Cost Society”
https://search.app.goo.gl/eiZXAy5
The Human Microbiome Project NIH
https://hmpdacc.org/

Why do complex systems self-organise? What is cellular uncertainty and stem cell plasticity? Can we create artificial digital life that’s subject to the same creative adaptability that nature and life demonstrate?



Today we have the extraordinary phenomena of self-organisation in Complex Systems to look into. We’re going to be looking into the conditions for a system to be considered complex, how a certain amount of randomness in the system releases the creativity required to permit adaptability, and how the feedback loops within that adaptability lead to a self-correcting organisational principle that keeps the system’s order and randomness in balance as it evolves. We’re going to be seeing how that self-organisation is operative at almost every level of scale in the universe and in life and death, and trying to get our heads around what that means for the nature of reality and consciousness.



So who better to discuss this with than stem cell biologist and diagnostic pathologist Neil Theise. Neil is is a professor of pathology at the NYU Grossman School of Medicine and a pioneer of adult stem cell plasticity research. In 2018 the news of his discovery of the interstitial, a vast communication network throughout the human body went viral and was featured in the New York Times and Scientific American among many others. Theise is also a long term student of Zen meditation and Kabbalah. And his studies of complexity theory, summarised in his new book “Notes on Complexity: A scientific theory of connection, consciousness and being”, have led to interdisciplinary collaborations in fields as diverse integrative medicine, consciousness studies and the science-spirituality interface.



Since speaking with biologist Michael Levin on Cellular cognition, and cognitive scientist John Vervaeke on collective intelligence, in the last series; I’ve been keen to speak to Neil about stem cell plasticity and self-organising systems, as their elegant sophistication begs so many questions about the nature of reality and consciousness. So without further ado, let’s go!



00:00 Intro

05:45 Livers have stem cells, Neil’s first of many discoveries

13:50 “Cellular Uncertainty” - Stem-cell plasticity.

17:43 Heisenberg’s ‘Uncertainty principle’ analogy.

20:20 Cellular sensitivity

22:00 The TechnoSphere - interacting with virtual creatures

26:20 Emergent bottom-up structure, self-organising inside the game

27:20 Artificial Life.

29:20 Complexity Theory explained by Ants.

34:20 Randomness allows the creativity to adapt to changes: in the environment Divergent ants.

35:20 A minimum of elements are needed over time to become self-organising.

36:50 Cells, ants and humans all self-organise: micro macro phenomena.

38:40 No planning or top-down intelligence managing complex systems.

42:55 ‘Wholarchies’ not hierarchies.

47:50 Living systems and complexity arise at the boundary between perfect order and fractal chaos.

49:55 Extinction is also part of complexity, as much as creative adaptivity.

50:30 “What makes you able to be a living system, inevitably, given enough time will lead you to die. You can’t separate life and death”.

53:10 Self correction

55:50 Cancer, economic crashes, extinction events: Pruning away the corrective negative feedback loops leads to collapse.

57:30 Every scale of nature adheres to complex system behaviours.

59:50 Complementarity exists at all levels of scale - Niels Bohr.

01:01:40 Biological complementarity.

01:04:50 Breaking down the separations between discrete organisms.

01:10:50 Not upward or downward causation but complementarity.

01:35:50 Zen meditation insights which led to scientific insight.

01:18:20 The risk of over-rating our personal experience.

01:23:20 Where you find mind, you find life.





References:

Neil Theise, “Notes on Complexity: A scientific theory of connection, consciousness and being”

Evan Thompson - Deep Continuity (of Life and Min

How are traumatic memories stored in the body? How has Somatic Experiencing helped thousands of people release the symptoms of trauma through bodily practices rather than talky therapy? How did Peter resolve his own devastating childhood trauma? What will a trauma aware society be like?



In this episode we have the fascinating question of the different ways traumatic memories are stored to think about, and how the body itself and not only the brain is instrumental in the way the memory’s are made and processed, and so in how we might ease the symptoms of the trauma later on. We’re going to delve into the brain-body connection in traumatic memory, looking at the way trauma can influence our bodily states and so in turn the way we can use bodily methods in a bottom-up approach, to re-train the brain to feel safe and integrate traumatic memories. 



For this there can be no better person than the psychotherapist, Dr. Peter Levine, the creator of the Somatic Experiencing therapy method, founder of the Institute of Somatic Education and author of many books on trauma and therapy, including “Waking the Tiger”, “Healing Trauma”, “Trauma Through a Childs Eyes”, “Trauma and Memory” which we’ll be discussing today, and his brand new book, which this episode is happy to celebrate the release of “An autobiography of Trauma: A healing Journey”.



Minus 1 minute

What we discuss:

00:00 Intro.

06:00 Conscious memories start earlier than we might imagine.

07:00 Descartes was wrong, better “I move, I sense, I feel, I have images, I have thoughts: therefore I am.”

07:30 The mid-1960’s session with Nancy that started it all for Peter.

14:20 The 3 different nervous system bodily states: fight or flight, freeze and social engagement.

20:00 Body/Nervous system bi-directionality: Influences between Polyvagal theory and Somatic Experiencing.

26:00 Exercises to switch the hyper-aroused message coming from the body.

29:00 Animal kingdom research into ‘shaking off’ daily life threatening experiences.

31:00 The very sensations that help animals release, are scary to us so we block them.

31:40 Vitality, movement and exuberance VS a disembodied society.

33:20 As children we learn to limit our exuberance, so as not to disturb adults.

35:30 Different types of memory and the role of the body in recording them.

36:00 Declarative conscious memory.

36:45 Autobiographical conscious memory.

38:30 Emotional unconscious memory (associative).

39:00 Procedural/body unconscious memories (to protect oneself).

39:45 Peter as Chiron “The Woundd Healer” archetype.

45.10 Being heard, witnessed and listened to: why reflection and mirroring are important.

47:00 “I don’t think there is consciousness without being mirrored”.

47:40 A trauma aware society.

51:00 Being heard and mirrored leads to resilience.

54:00 Peter’s devastating childhood trauma and shame: “An Autobiography of Trauma”

57:00 Confronting shame tends to intensify it.

59:30 Why share such a personal vulnerable story with the world?

01:01:00 The dream that helped him choose whether or not to publish this deeply personal story.

01:02:20 Encouraging others to tell their stories: cathartic sharing.

01:04:45 Sharing vulnerability with the compassionate other.

01:05:30 Is trauma required to transform or is it just an inevitability of life?

01:07:00 Trauma is a rite of passage towards being truly compassionate.

01:07:40 Gabor Mate, “Compassionate Enquiry”.

01:08:00 Curiosity can’t co-exist with fear, use it to shift the process.



References:

Peter Levine, “An Autobiography of Trauma: A Healing Journey” 2024

(Available at Ergos Institute, Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Amazon UK, Inner Traditions, Books A Million, and Bookshop.org)

Somatic Experiencing

https://www.somaticexperiencing.com/home

Peter Levine, “Trauma and Memory” 2015

https://g.co/kgs/vAzjvB2

“Hand in Hand: Parenting by connection” episode, Listeni

In what way is beef in UFOs religious-like? Is there evidence for collective visions of these objects and entities, or rather for their objective reality? In what way could the experience have elements of both?

In this episode we have the ever more mainstream story of UFO experiences to assess; Not necessarily the important questions around the existence of the phenomenon, which the office of the US director of National Intelligence confirmed in an official 2021 report that they were, in fact, a ‘population of objects’ (see show notes below)- but rather the belief in the phenomenon, in 2008 polled at around %37 of Americans, but by no means confined to the US. This widespread belief, along with less ridiculed beliefs bolstered by the high probability of extraterrestrial civilisations more advanced than our own existing out there in the cosmos, has had a huge sociological and cultural influence on western society.

So in this episode I want to put into a sociological context all of this quasi-religious belief; understand the role of our perception of technology; get our heads around a rare example of a modern myth forming in real time; look at the ways a phenomenon can be both physical and psychological at the same time; and examine various scientific, academic and even philosophical doors into this confounding phenomena that no matter how much the sceptics deny, just won’t go away.

So when we study belief we have to turn to a religious studies specialist, and who better to call on than Professor of Religious studies at the University of North Carolina, Diana Pasulka. She’s also the author of 3 books, “Heaven Can Wait”, a book about purgatory, “American Cosmic” on scientists who believe in UFO’s, and her new 2023 book “Encounters” on multi-disciplinary academic approaches to the UFO phenomenon and experiences with non-human intelligence.

Don’t forget listeners, that we talk about all the science in more detail with Stanford medical School’s immunologist, pathologist and inventor Garry Nolan in this series so check that out too.

What we discuss:00:00 Intro.13:08 Meaningful events propel people towards religious belief.21:30 Heidegger’s warning about underestimating the influence of technology on our culture.27:00 Plato’s “Allegory of the Cave” - A just government and the control of information.34:40 Nietzsche, the risk of assigning causal power for synchronicities to higher powers.44:00 Perspective change: The creation of a modern myth, to a real physical phenomenon.45:50 Looking for UFO crash parts in the desert with Garry Nolan, taken blindfolded by a Space Force scientist.49:00 The ‘Antenna’ hypothesis: the brain as a receiver and transmitter.56:00 Physical data analysed by top scientists, and government “management” of information.01:01:00 Where the physical and non-physical meet: idealism or VR hypotheses.01:05:00 Humans may be a sophisticated type of biotechnology.01:06:00 The use of intuition protocols to find technological solutions: intention and visualisation.01:11:30 New Encounters book: a “reorientation”.01:14:00 Iya Whitely: validating pilots experiences.

Diana Pasulka, “Encounters”.

https://g.co/kgs/tFfG3Mx

Diana Pasulka, “American Cosmic”.

https://g.co/kgs/MbQ1tXQ

Office of the Director of National Intelligence Assessment on UAP, June 2021, John L. Ratcliffe

https://www.dni.gov/files/ODNI/documents/assessments/Prelimary-Assessment-UAP-20210625.pdf

Martin Heidegger essay, “The Question Concerning Technology”

https://g.co/kgs/ed5JVEW

Iya Whitely “Trusting and Learning from Pilots”, Lecture at the SOL Foundation symposium at the Nolan Lab at Stanford Medical School

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR09GHQ5AwA

Beyond UFOs: The Science of Consciousness & Contact with Non Human Intelligence - Rey hernandez et al.

https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-UFOs-Science-Consciousness-Intelligence/dp/1721088652

Does the use of computer models in physics change the way we see the universe? How far reaching are the implications of computation irreducibility? Are observer limitations key to the way we conceive the laws of physics?
In this episode we have the difficult yet beautiful topic of trying to model complex systems like nature and the universe computationally to get into; and how beyond a low level of complexity all systems, seem to become equally unpredictable. We have a whole episode in this series on Complexity Theory in biology and nature, but today we’re going to be taking a more physics and computational slant.
Another key element to this episode is Observer Theory, because we have to take into account the perceptual limitations of our species’ context and perspective, if we want to understand how the laws of physics that we’ve worked out from our environment, are not and cannot be fixed and universal but rather will always be perspective bound, within a multitude of alternative branches of possible reality with alternative possible computational rules. We’ll then connect this multi-computational approach to a reinterpretation of Entropy and the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
The fact that my guest has been building on these ideas for over 40 years, creating computer language and Ai solutions, to map his deep theories of computational physics, makes him the ideal guest to help us unpack this topic. He is physicist, computer scientist and tech entrepreneur Stephen Wolfram. In 1987 he left academia at Caltech and Princeton behind and devoted himself to his computer science intuitions at his company Wolfram Research. He’s published many blog articles about his ideas, and written many influential books including “A New kind of Science”, and more recently “A Project to Find the Fundamental Theory of Physics”, and “Computer Modelling and Simulation of Dynamic Systems”, and just out in 2023 “The Second Law” about the mystery of Entropy.
One of the most wonderful things about Stephen Wolfram is that, despite his visionary insight into reality, he really loves to be ‘in the moment’ with his thinking, engaging in socratic dialogue, staying open to perspectives other than his own and allowing his old ideas to be updated if something comes up that contradicts them; and given how quickly the fields of physics and computer science are evolving I think his humility and conceptual flexibility gives us a fine example of how we should update how we do science as we go.

What we discuss: 
00:00 Intro
07:45 The history of scientific models of reality: structural, mathematical and computational.
20:20 The Principle of Computational Equivalence (PCE)
24:45 Computational Irreducibility - the process that means you can’t predict the outcome in advance.
27:50 The importance of the passage of time to Consciousness.
28:45 Irreducibility and the limits of science.
33:30 Godel’s Incompleteness Theorem
42:20 Observer Theory and the Wolfram Physics Project.
50:30 We ’make’ space.
51:30 Branchial Space - different quantum histories of the world, branching and merging
58:50 Rulial Space: All possible rules of all possible interconnected branches.
01:19:30 The Measurement problem of QM and Entanglement meets computational irreducibility and observer theory. 
01:32:40 Inviting Stephen back for a separate episode on AI safety, safety solutions and applications for science, as we did’t have time.
01:37:30 At the molecular level the laws of physics are reversible.
01:45:30 Entropy defined in computational terms.
01:50:30 If we ever overcame our finite minds, there would be no coherent concept of existence.
01:51:30 Parallels between modern physics and ancient eastern mysticism and cosmology.
01:55:30 Reductionism in an irreducible world: saying a lot from very little input.



References:

“The Second Law: Resolving the Mystery of the Second Law of Thermodynamics”, Stephen Wolfram

“A New Kind of Science”, Step

How has the evolution of cognition led to homo-sapiens being such effective collaborators and how is the collective knowledge and wisdom of the society distributed and passed on to later generations? How can we apply the amplified wisdom of distributed cognition to solve some of humanities biggest problems?



Today we have the important fields of Collective Intelligence and how we can use it to solve our problems as a society, to try and get our heads around. We’ll be discussing the relevance of difficulties arising from cognitive science and physics research that for some put into question the consensus story that embodied feelings were fundamental in the development of reasoning and consciousness; We also discuss the relevance of the work of Carl Jung on the Collective Unconscious; of Neuroscientist Anil Seth’s Controlled Hallucination and Don Hoffman’s User interface theory; of Iain McGilchrist’s split brain research and of Michael Levin’s take on cellular cognition. 



There is of course only one polymath who can hold that many topics in a single conversation and that’s the Cognitive scientist, and philosopher John Vervaeke. Vervaeke is the director of UToronto’s Consciousness and Wisdom Studies Laboratory and its Cognitive Science program, where he teaches an Introduction to Cognitive Science and The Cognitive Science of Consciousness. 



He has been a leading intellectual observer of the modern meaning crisis: the loss of a spiritual worldview in the West, and the decline of wisdom traditions that help individuals find meaning in their lives. His online lectures and practices integrate teachings from many different disciplines, including philosophy, psychology, religion, and cutting edge cognitive science. He is the author and presenter of the YouTube series, “Awakening from the Meaning Crisis” and his brand new series, "After Socrates."



What we discuss:

00:00 Intro.

05:35 Losing faith without losing a taste for the transcendent.

15:30 The difference between intelligence and living cognition.

18:40 Relevance realisation: What to attend to in the sea of info available.

21:00 Cognition “cares” because its life is on the line: Salience landscapes.

24:15 Humans VS persons.

30:05 Distributed Cognition explained.

30:30 ‘Reason is monological’ framework.

33:15 The rise of individualism.

34:30 Distributed computation and problem solving via the internet.

36:30 ‘Reason is dialogical’ framework.

38:00 Your best self-correction ability is with other people.

42:30 Life builds collective intelligence without language.

45:50 Issues from neuroscience and quantum physics.

50:30 Predictive processing to identify salience.

52:30 The imaginary VS the imaginal.

53:40 Imaginally augmented perception.

58:00 Causality is not the same as causal relevance: Acausal phenomena.

01:00:30 Determinism VS fractal probability. 

01:03:50 A hierarchy of cognitive selves: Michael Levin.

01:06:50 There isn’t just bottom up emergence but top down emanation.

01:07:20 Deep continuity - Evan Thompson.

01:09:30 Hierarchies of selves: Michael Levin.

01:15:30 Could we be part of single selves greater than our individual organisms?

01:17:30 Cognition is a continuum but differences of degree eventually make differences of kind.

01:19:30 Solving collective problems via distributed cognition and practices of connectedness.

01:25:20 Left/right hemisphere considerations for distributed cognition: Iain McGilchrist.

01:32:30 Adaptivity: Self-transcendence VS self-delusion.

01:35:15 Narrative bias and the Left Brain interpreter: Mike Gazzaniga.

01:37:00 Extended naturalism

01:40:24 The Collective Unconscious - Carl Jung.

01:46:25 A lot of the unconscious contents are not narrative like or persona like.



References: 

“After Socrates” You Tube series

“The meaning Crisis” You Tube series

Michael Levin - Cellular cognition episode

Evan Thompson - Deep continuity hypothesis

“Mind in Li