Positive Disintegration Podcast Emma Nicholson and Dr. Chris Wells

In episode 31, Chris and Emma talked with Celi Trépanier, author, blogger, and parent, about the gifted community and the challenges of raising gifted kids and being a gifted adult. Together, we talk about the importance of friendships, connections, and support within the gifted community.
Celi was Chris’s first friend in the gifted world. Celi held space and supported Chris during those first years when she was studying the theory of positive disintegration and giftedness while trying to find a way forward in her work. Celi and Chris share their story and talk about the important role friendship plays in gifted journeys.
We also addressed the disconnect between research and practice in gifted education, as well as the disconnect between teachers and parents. Misunderstandings about gifted children, the lack of awareness that this difference goes beyond an educational label, and the stereotypes about the gifted were all mentioned. It’s clear from our conversation that giftedness doesn’t always feel like a gift. We talked about bullying and its impact on children and the fact that there’s bullying in adult spaces as well.
However, we also talked about the importance of holding space within the gifted community. How we can support each other and help each other through “the muck of giftedness.” It’s not easy for those of us who are sensitive to be vulnerable and share in online communities on social media, but we still find ways to be present for the people who need us. All three of us have provided mirrors to our audiences because we want to help others feel seen and understood.
Links from this episode
Crushing Tall Poppies (Celi’s website)
Educating Your Gifted Child (Celi’s book)
Laughing at Chaos (Jen Merrill’s website)
If This is a Gift, Can I Send it Back? (Jen’s book)
You can read about Chris’s autoethnography here and here
Parents of Gifted and Twice-Exceptional Kids (Facebook group)
SENG
GHF Learners
Alabama Association of Gifted Children
Tall Poppy Syndrome (Wikipedia)
Celi’s popular post that was mentioned: A Gifted Child Checklist for Teachers
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In episode 30, Chris and Emma were joined by Katy Higgins Lee, MFT, a therapist and clinical supervisor in private practice in Santa Rosa, California. She works with neurodivergent adults with a focus on giftedness and twice-exceptionality. This episode is our contribution to Neurodiversity Celebration Week.
We learned about the terms neurodiversity and neurodivergence, and the appropriate application for individuals compared to groups. Katy talked about the way that neurodivergence can be either innate (e.g., ADHD, autism) or acquired (e.g., PTSD, traumatic brain injury).
We asked Katy the question, Is giftedness a type of neurodivergence? We agreed with her that giftedness is more than an IQ score, and fits the definition of neurodivergence since this is an experience of reality that diverges from what can be considered typical. Asynchronous development was mentioned, which is a definition of giftedness from the Columbus Group that incorporates the overexcitabilities.
Katy discussed being neurodiversity-affirming and non-pathologizing. We learned that we can view these differences as identities or neurotypes, rather than disorders or disadvantages.
Neurodiversity-affirming means using identify-first language rather than person-first language. For instance, autistic person rather than person with autism. We also talked about not using functioning labels such as “high-functioning” vs “low-functioning” autism and instead considering differences in support needs.
It’s also critical to be trauma-informed and LGBTQ+-affirming. Katy said it’s especially important to remember the need to be trans-affirming as part of a neurodiversity-affirmative practice because many neurodivergent people are also trans, nonbinary, or otherwise gender non-conforming.
We discussed overexcitabilities being part of the gifted experience, and the autistic and ADHD experience, and how that wasn’t clear from Katy’s introduction to OEs in the gifted community. It’s time to change the narrative and help the gifted world catch up—OEs are a part of the neurodivergent experience beyond the connection with giftedness.
The term giftedness is losing credibility in the neurodiversity community partly due to OEs not being seen as types of neurodivergence, which can hinder people on their journey of self-discovery. It’s not an either/or proposition of OE or ADHD (or autism). Missed identification of neurodivergence types in gifted individuals is a cause of trauma for many.
We talked about the overlap between ADHD and autism, as well as the way that other differences seem closely connected such as giftedness, gender differences, Ehlers-Danos Syndrome, and OCD. We discussed how stereotypes about ADHD, autism, and giftedness, and even their names, have caused problems in understanding these experiences. Giftedness is a term with a lot of misconceptions, but it is an important difference to acknowledge and understand. Even though parents of gifted children are often gifted themselves, they don’t necessarily see it in themselves or recognize its impact on their lives.
Links for this episode
Katy’s Tending Paths accounts on Facebook and Instagram.
Katy’s website
Dr. Nick Walker’s website
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Join the Adults with Overexcitabilities group on Facebook
Please, consider supporting the podcast. Positive Disintegration is brought to you by the Dabrowski Center.
If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you!


This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit positivedisintegration.substack.com

In episode 29, Chris and Emma discussed The Ugly Duckling, the classic fairy tale by Hans Christian Andersen, from the perspectives of giftedness, neurodivergence, and positive disintegration. We discussed aspects of our personal journeys and the impact of discovering Dąbrowski’s theory, and how these relate back to themes in the tale.
Some of the themes we cover include—the realization in our 40s that we’re happier than we ever expected to be, overcoming the feeling of brokenness, and the traumas that accumulate over a lifetime of being gifted and an outlier.
We also discuss the experience of dynamisms, Dark Nights of the Soul, appreciating the process of positive disintegration, and learning to be grateful for certain kinds of suffering. We talk about growth not being automatic, but hard-won, and the work involved in inner transformation.
The experience of discovering OEs—and the moment of self-recognition—is very important for many coming to terms with who they are. Emma talked about the three elements involved:
* The initial discovery of OE
* Understanding one’s own OE profile
* Self-acceptance
We’ve made it our mission to bring the theory and OEs to other people. We’re building community and offering the opportunity for connection to anyone who needs us. We also want to hang the ‘mirror’ of OE in as many places as possible, so people can experience the same magic of self-recognition the Ugly Duckling did!
Quotes
The full quote Chris mentioned (~23:50) is: “Suffering, if we experience it correctly, makes us sensitive to the suffering of others, awakens in us a new awareness, and creates a breach in our excessively egocentric attitude toward the surrounding world.” (Dabrowski, Personality-Shaping through Positive Disintegration, pp. 30-31)
Quotes from The Ugly Duckling:
* “I never dreamed there could be so much happiness, when I was the ugly duckling.”
* “He felt quite glad that he had come through so much trouble and misfortune, for now he had a fuller understanding of his own good fortune, and of beauty when he met with it.”
* “Being born in a duck yard does not matter, if only you are hatched from a swan’s egg.”
Links for this episode
The Ugly Ducking (The original story)
The Ugly Duckling: A Story of Giftedness and Disintegration (Emma’s blog post)
Conversations on Gifted Trauma by InterGifted
Chris’s “Quote Collages” are on the Dabrowski page. Here’s another one that was mentioned about Disintegration in Michael Piechowski’s work.
Three elements of discovery in Emma’s video
Episode 2: Overexcitabilities and Pseudoscience
Episode 14: Relationships and Vulnerability
Dr. Maggie Brown (ResearchGate profile, or click here for her website)
Integrating perspectives: View the tiger from multiple angles
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Join the Adults with Overexcitabilities group on Facebook
Please, consider supporting the podcast. Positive Disintegration is brought to you by the Dabrowski Center.
Subscribe here for the Dabrowski Center’s monthly newsletter and information about the 2024 Dabrowski Congress.
If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you!




This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit positivedisintegration.substack.com

In episode 28, Chris and Emma were joined by Kate Arms, JD, PCC, for a discussion on what positive disintegration looks like in organizations and workplaces. How are organizational dynamics similar to positive disintegration in individuals?
Kate’s approach to her work is one where the business itself, or the “system,” is considered the coaching client, and she observes not only the individuals but also the interactions between them. She feels that dynamisms show up as much in the interactions, and leadership, as in the individuals.
A business, start-up, or organization can move through the levels of development—from the first grumblings of discontent in the workforce to a place of shared accountability and vision—and can transform. They are also prone to their own three factors; the start-up dream of the founders, the external pressures (like customers and market forces), and the emerging “third factor” of a growing workforce culture and shared vision.
Kate shared tips for employees and employers for dealing with positive disintegration. We discussed the difficulty of being overexcitable and working in organizations where the individual is forced to conform and toe the line. We also talked about positive maladjustment, and the good that can come when a business or non-profit tackles social issues and works to create change in the world.
Links from this episode
Signal Fire Coaching (Kate’s website)
Dr. Eric Vorm’s presentation from the 2022 Dabrowski Congress
Episode 6 on Autopsychotherapy and Self-Leadership
Follow us on social media:
Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/positivedisintegrationpod)
Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/positivedisintegration_podcast/)
Twitter (https://twitter.com/DabrowskiPod)
Join the Adults with Overexcitabilities group on Facebook
Join Dabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Community on Facebook
Please, consider supporting the podcast. Positive Disintegration is brought to you by the Dabrowski Center.
Subscribe here for the Dabrowski Center’s monthly newsletter and information about the 2024 Dabrowski Congress.
If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you!
Thank you for listening to Positive Disintegration. Please share with someone who might benefit from our work.



This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit positivedisintegration.substack.com

In episode 27, Chris and Emma were joined by Dr. Tracy Winter, an ICF-credentialed coach with a PhD in Human Development. In her coaching practice, she works with neurodivergent adults and specializes in the gifted / 2e population. We talked about Tracy’s dissertation research on gifted adults “being seen,” where most of her participants fell into two groups: they were not seen as gifted, or they were mis-seen in a way that was not aligned with their self-perceptions.
We discuss the importance of “mirroring”—finding yourself reflected in others—and the loneliness that can happen when we are not seen for our authentic selves, even when we have a support network around us. Tracy holds up a “flat mirror” with clients to help them see themselves accurately, and we talk about how devastating it feels when neurodivergent and gifted people only see ourselves in a distorted “funhouse mirror” if they cannot find people like themselves to connect with.
Tracy talks to us about overexcitability in neurodivergent clients, and what it’s like to work with the Theory of Positive Disintegration in her practice. She shares other developmental models she finds helpful, including Kegan’s Subject-Object Theory of Development and Cook-Greuter's Constructive Developmental Theory in her work, along with classic theorists such as Erikson.
We talk about the difference between a coach and a therapist, what you can expect from an ICF-certified coach, and the importance of an authentic relationships in both clinical work and coaching. We also discuss the activation of dynamisms in clients, and the benefits and pitfalls of nudging someone into disintegration, and the importance of “meeting people where they are” when talking about experiencing a disintegration—whether that be with a client or with a loved one in a relationship.
Links from this episode:
Nerd Coach (Tracy’s Website)
Download Tracy’s dissertation from the Media tab of her website
Tracy on LinkedIn
Tracy’s episode on Unleash Monday
Emma’s Triangle of Loneliness video
Chris’s paper on the Inner Experience of Giftedness [PDF download]
SENG
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Join the Adults with Overexcitabilities group on Facebook
Join Dabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Community on Facebook
The Dabrowski Center now has an official mailing list. We don’t want to assume that because you’ve subscribed to the podcast, you want to be on our general mailing list. If you do, please subscribe here for our monthly newsletter and information about the 2024 Dabrowski Congress.
Please, consider supporting the podcast. Positive Disintegration is brought to you by the Dabrowski Center.
If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you!
Thank you for listening to Positive Disintegration. Please share with someone who might benefit from our work.



This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit positivedisintegration.substack.com

In episode 26, we continued the conversation with Nth Bar-Fields and Joi Lin in the second half of our two-part series about their experiences as profoundly gifted individuals.
In Part 2, we talked about health and mental health issues, including experiences with substances and addiction. We discussed how being neurodivergent can also lead to diversity in the realm of physical health and how medical providers may not be equipped to deal with our needs.
We mentioned the overexcitabilities and how they manifest in our lives. We acknowledged that these intense experiences and curiosity might lead us to want to explore things in both the inner and outer worlds.
We also talked about saving the world. How we can do our own small part locally, playing to our strengths, and the value of collaborating with other gifted people to make a real difference within our communities and globally.
Links from this episode
Elysian Trust
Chris’s episode with Jen Harvey Sallin on Conversations on Gifted Trauma was mentioned because that episode was recorded the morning of the episodes with Nth and Joi.
Interested in joining Elysian Trust? The email address is info@elysiantrust.org
Click here to find out more about the six Elysian Trust member societies.
News: The Dabrowski Center now has an official mailing list. We don’t want to assume that because you’ve subscribed to the podcast, you want to be on our general mailing list. If you do, please subscribe here for our monthly newsletter and information about the 2024 Dabrowski Congress.
Follow us on social media:
Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/positivedisintegrationpod)
Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/positivedisintegration_podcast/)
Twitter (https://twitter.com/DabrowskiPod)
Join the Adults with Overexcitabilities group on Facebook
Please, consider supporting the podcast. Positive Disintegration is brought to you by the Dabrowski Center.
If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you!
Thank you for listening to Positive Disintegration. Please share with someone who might benefit from our work.




This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit positivedisintegration.substack.com