Management Caf‪é‬ Virtual not Distant

Step into the Management Café with your hosts Tim Burgess and Pilar Orti. 

This conversation was inspired by an article Pilar read in Organizational Dynamics: "How managers can help employees navigate tough decisions without burning out by Andrew Molinsky and Laura Noval. They describe a specific type of burnout, that which arises from having to continuously perform challenging tasks. This is different from the burnout that comes from chronic overwork or being under prolonged stress.

And it requires different solutions. An employee might have a low overall workload, might be exercising and getting enough sleep and ticking all the boxes for managing "overwork burnout". Yet these if they are required to perform challenging tasks beyond their capacity to cope... they will burn out. So how can we support employees in this situation? The article's authors propose several ways organisations can help employees prepare, carry out and recover from challenging tasks.

Managers play a key role in guiding employees through difficult work. Firstly in recognising that a particular task is a "necessary evil" and will take a toll on the person who performs it. Then by acknowledging this impact to the employee and supporting them. This can reduce the emotional burden on the employee and help them avoid burnout.

01:45 mins The article talks about the type of burnout that comes when the employee is required to do things that are particularly challenging. The authors call these tasks "necessary evils". To quote directly from the article "Burnout happens when an employee continuously performs tasks that cause emotional, material or physical harm to another person (also known as ‘necessary evils’). Disciplining others or delivering bad news are examples of necessary evils. It requires an employee to be focused and self-controlled, which at times can cause significant stress and impaired task performance."

4:20 One of the examples of a "necessary evil" task comes from an employee in a drug recovery programme who is required to remove someone from the programme because they violated the rules. This is a tough decision but, in a way, it is the right thing to do. It's easy to see how performing this task would take it's toll on the employee, particularly if the task must be done regularly or without support.

5:00 Pilar shares a story of someone working at an educational institution where their role requires them to tell students that they need to pay for an additional service. And the students can have a big, emotional reaction. If the employee has to deal with this situation repeatedly, it will lead to burnout.

6:30 With this type of burnout you might not have a large overall volume of work, you might be getting enough sleep and doing all the right things. But too much of the necessary evils still leads to burnout.

7:00 The article lists two types of challenging tasks. A competence challenge is a task which is technically challenging - requiring the employee to work at or beyond their capability. A character challenge conflicts with their sense of who they are as a person. Tim would add a third element of capacity. An employee might be able to have one challenging conversation each day, but not have the capacity to do ten of those conversations. And Pilar adds another dimension of expectation: sometimes we can get overloaded even when the volume is not that high, but our expectations turn it into overwhelm.

8:15 It can be good to go into a competency or capacity challenge as long as it isn't for a sustained period. Tim shares a story about challenging work at Shield GEO. They asked a simple question at the end of each day to a team that was under stress:

"Could you do another day like this tomorrow?"

Asking this simple question was much less intrusive than a time and motion study. People's answers helped identify what tasks were causing overload - but they also helped people understand that they were

A short bonus episode to let you know what's brewing in the Management Café.

In about a month, we'll be starting a new series, on manager emotions.
In each episode, we'll dive into a specific emotion, discussing what it feels like, its purpose, and how it can help or hinder us as managers.
Our recent episode on regret resonated with listeners, and we both enjoyed it very much! It highlighted the importance of discussing emotions as a manager and how they shape our management practices. So we've decided to cover some other feelings and emotions. 
Throughout the series, we'll share our own experiences and those shared with us by others. We'll explore not only the manager's experience of each emotion but also their experience of employees who are going through those emotions. When you think about emotional contagion and the impact of being around someone experiencing a particular emotional reaction, you can see how there will be plenty to get our teeth into. 
Some of the emotions we plan to cover include:
- Overwhelm
- Disconnection
- Hopelessness
- Anger
- Confusion
- Joy
- Compassion
We'd love to hear from you, listeners!

If you have any stories, thoughts, or insights related to these emotions or any other emotions you think would make for an interesting episode, please share them with us. You can reach out via email at managementcafepodcast[at]gmail.com or through the contact form on our website, managementcafepodcast.com.
Additionally, if you come across any books, articles, or resources that you believe would contribute to the series, please let us know. 
Look out for the Manager Emotion Series, where we'll take a deeper look at the human side of management and explore how emotions shape our experiences as managers and leaders.

Until then, coffee's over for us, now it's over to you! 

Our hosts in the Management Café believe that everyone has the potential to be better at something. And for them, as for many of us, helping someone grow is one of the most rewarding aspects of being a manager. Similarly for employees it's a wonderful feeling to have a manager who believes in us, gives us opportunities to improve and offers their support.

However it's important for managers to recognise that not everyone wants to get better right now. Perhaps they are finding their self-actualisation outside of work. Perhaps they don't currently have the bandwidth for growth because they have too much going on inside or outside of work.

As always context is important. The person needs to be open to growth (Pro Tip - ask them!!). And it helps if the role or organisation provides appropriate opportunities for growth. But even outside their immediate role we can often find meaningful ways to help someone if we take a broad enough view of the person and their goals.

00:30 mins In his book Work Rules, Laszlo Bock talks about acknowledging that sometimes people aren't in the right context to fulfil their potential. And in that situation, the organisation might best help the person by putting them into a different context. That might be working with a different team or role. Or even moving to a job at another company.

3:40 Our hosts believe that everyone has the potential to do better at something.

4:20 Pilar shares her mixed experiences of offering people the chance to take on different roles within her theatre company. Some people were not ready to take on a new opportunity.

5:30 For Tim there is a thrill that comes from watching people get better at something, even if he is only marginally involved. And giving people the opportunity to develop in a role is something that he has, at times, prioritised over the needs of the team or the business. He doesn't regret many of these decisions.

7:10 We might also choose to develop a person because we don't want to have to find someone else to do it. So is it about developing them? Or is it about you?

8:30 One of the ways Tim has rationalised his approach is that even when investing in someone's development has not shown the desired result, there is still some benefit from showing other employees that the company values giving staff the chance to develop.

9:15 Managers can position these as bets or experiments. Tim has had some difficulties with this. As the manager it was easy for him to view it as a bet. But for the person taking the opportunity it was difficult to manage their expectations.

11:00 Pilar views this as a great attitude of a learning culture. Managers will give people opportunities even when the outcome is uncertain. People are willing to go out of their comfort zone to try something. And even if the person fails on their attempt it doesn't mean that all their other contributions are erased or that they are out of a job.

12:35 Tim had a period at Shield GEO where he hired mostly early career folks and enjoyed watching them flourish. Later when the business started hiring more experienced people who wanted stability in their role and career, Tim struggled to adjust. He couldn't quite kick the urge to grow people.

14:45 Tim found the Russ Laraway 3 Career Conversations model to be very helpful. By understanding the person's past and their dreams for the future, you are better able to help them in the present.

16:40 On the 21st Century Work Life podcast Pilar recently interviewed a large creative agency who built a solution to help companies better understand people's potential and interests. This software gives people a space to talk about their skills and interests outside their direct job role.

18:00 This is similar to the experience Tim had with Bree Caggiati. Bree's role as a journalist at Shield GEO was predominantly creating written content but Tim was aware Bree had done some podcasting with a friend. When the

Several times recently in the Management Café our hosts have talked about regrets. Those formative management experiences where they look back and wish they had acted differently. Making mistakes is part of our learning journey but some situations weigh on us more than others. Revisiting them can bring a range of challenging emotions like regret, guilt and shame.

Regret is an uncomfortable feeling, it's something we avoid. The discomfort can be heightened for managers who have a duty of care over their team and the extra weight that comes with an official title and position within the hierarchy.

Yet we can't just ignore it and move on. Regret carries valuable knowledge. It helps us understand what truly matters to us. It makes us aware of what behaviours need to change to in order to match our values. And it doesn't want to let go until we've acknowledged the lesson. This can be a slow and painful but very worthwhile process.

Pilar and Tim share a few of their (many) regrets as managers and talk how these experiences changed them. For our hosts this conversation is, in the words of Hector Santiesteban, restorative and therapeutic.

SHOW NOTES


00:30 mins In episode #74 "Leading in the Flow of Work", Pilar and Tim each talked about how they previously tried to live a life without regrets. But with age and more experiences this changed. Inevitably there are lots of regrets.

2:20 Regret can be a very helpful emotion for managers. It tells us that our actions in a particular situation weren't in line with our values. And it is important that in the future we handle these situations differently. Regret is a guide for our behaviour. When a situation comes up again we can be reminded of our regret. This helps us make better decisions in the moment.

4:15 Regret is uncomfortable but knowing that we can learn from bad experiences can make them a little more bearable. Regret wants us to understand why we feel bad about our actions and to try behaving differently in the future.

5:15 We experience regret because we care about what happened. If we pay attention to our regret and explore why we cared so much about a particular situation, it helps us better understand our values and how we want to live.

6:30 Tim used to tell himself that he'd never regret something if he felt he'd made a good decision based on what he knew then. But he came to realise that a lack of knowledge or awareness didn't necessarily excuse his actions and decisions. He'd still experience regret.

7:15 If we reject our regrets and hide behind phrases like "it's just business" then we are denying ourselves a valuable opportunity to learn.

8:00 Pilar highlights two different learning experiences. The first is regret from doing something we know we shouldn't do. The second is more nuanced - we think we're doing the right thing but we aren't. We are lacking the knowledge or experience to know better. So regret comes in to teach us.

8:50 Tim shares a story of one of his big regrets, when he reacted poorly to one of his team members who was struggling during a difficult period. The way Tim handled this situation nagged away at him for a long time. Looking back he can see he turned away from an opportunity to connect with and support the person. As a result they both suffered more.

12:00 This realisation took a long time to arrive and revealed itself in stages.

14:00 Talking about these situations with others can help us see things differently.

15:30 Pilar has a big regret from her period teaching A level students for Theatre Studies. A situation came up where her natural approach of positive reinforcement didn't work. She can still picture her student's face when it went awry! But for Pilar, the lesson was learnt and she decided to get better at corrective feedback.

20:15 Another of Pilar's regrets came from ignoring her gut instinct when taking on client work. The next time her gut started to tell her "no",

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Let's face it, management has a mixed reputation. It seems like everyone has a story to tell about their manager doing something poorly. But when we break it down, often times it's that we've had a bad experience with a manager. That person might actually be an ok manager overall or even a good manager. But in this instance they did something wrong.
Something we keep coming back to in the Management Café is how managers' mistakes impact the humans they manage. And these impacts are not trivial. People's jobs are important to them. They are linked to financial security, to their plans for the future, to their sense of self-worth and wellbeing. Bad experiences and bad managers can affect the employees for a long time afterwards.
There are many reasons why managers make mistakes. Some people just aren't suited to the job. Some aren't a good fit for a particular company or team or individual or situation. Some are still learning. It might not even be in the manager's control - for example bad behaviour might originate from someone more senior or the organisation itself. And of course managers are fallible just like everyone else. Sometimes they just mess up. 
Most confusing of all is that these conditions are fluid. And it is about perception. A good manager for employee A might be a bad manager for employee B. The manager might think they did the right thing and their superiors or peers or team members might agree. But the affected employee can still disagree. Any they might all be right! As always, it's a tough job being a manager...

SHOW NOTES


00:00 mins Content warning! Talking about bad management can be triggering.

00:30 Pilar talks about her father, a senior engineer who did not like management.

2:00 People often grumble about management in general, but in reality they are talking about bad managers. There is a big difference.

3:40 It might take just one mistake for an average manager to be viewed as a bad manager. And once they are perceived as a bad manager it can be difficult to shift.

6:00 Nobody comes into management fully formed. We learn as we go and we make mistakes - many of which have an impact on the people we manage. So a person who is learning and growing as a manager will feel regret and guilt. This is not given enough importance by organisations. It's a difficult job and managers should be better supported.

7:20 Some managers take a defensive stance to protect themselves against the human impact of their actions. The phrase "It's not personal, it's just business" comes to mind...

8:15 Context is so important. If we want someone to do their best work, the environment and fit need to be right. This will be different for different people. And it can change with the circumstances. Tim shares an anecdote of managing someone who started off thinking he was a good manager, but ended up thinking he was a bad one.

10:45 When interviewing candidates, Tim could sometimes see the scars left on people through their experiences with bad managers. As Pilar points out, this experiences are carried forward into future interactions. It forms part of the psychological contract that we create with our workplace. (Check out episode #5 for more on this.)

13:40 If an employee has only experienced micromanagement, that becomes their expectation of what management is.

14:00 Manager "readmes" can be helpful for employees and managers to make their expectations and needs more explicit.

15:30 There is often a big disconnection between the people making a decision and the people impacted by that decision. Pilar shares an example from the Harvard Business Review article "Leading in the Flow of Work" (the bulk of this article was discussed in episode #74), where a hospital's administration suddenly introduced a meeting during a critical part of the day for the clinicians and staff required to atten

Tim and Pilar discuss an article featured in the Jan/Feb 2024 edition of the Harvard Business Review: "Leading in the Flow of Work" by Hitendra Wadhwa, Founder of the Mentora Institute.

Hitendra posits that "rather than (being) a trait to be acquired, leadership is a state to be activated" through preparation, self awareness and reflection. By managing our internal state and matching our actions to the context, we will function better and more authentically as leaders.

The article especially focusses on conversations and how leaders can get better outcomes by making conscious choices about what to do. It's an attractive premise, to be able to skilfully navigate the challenges of fluid interactions by pausing and then choosing, in the moment, an appropriate action for the situation.

This model lists five core energies: Purpose (committed to a noble cause), Wisdom (calm and receptive to the truth), Growth (curious and open to learning), Love (connected with those you work with and serve) and Self-realisation (centered in a joyful spirit). This is supported by 25 actions which help activate these core energies.

For our hosts this discussion is bittersweet. There is excitement at the prospect of making better decisions during important interactions. And there is also regret that our past selves didn't have the advantage of our current knowledge. Ironically of course it is that same regret which makes us the older and wiser person we are today...



0:30 mins Pilar appreciated several examples from the article of someone turning a potential confrontation into a better situation via the person shifting their approach.

2:30 Tim had previously associated flow states with sports - quite a different interpretation which is about acting without conscious thought or decision, just using instinct and muscle memory. But within the context of the article the flow state is where we are "calmly aware of our inner and outer conditions and able to adapt our behaviour as needed". Pilar describes this as a split personality between being present and reviewing what's going on. And being able to shift behaviour based on this conscious awareness.

5:25 We can all relate to the feeling of something not going the way we expected. When we unpack it afterwards we gain new insight and realise we should have acted differently. Alas, the moment has passed. Certainly both our hosts have experienced this many times!

6:25 The article shares a compelling example, from Jonathan Aitken's biography of Margaret Thatcher, about a pivotal meeting between Thatcher and Mikhail Gorbachev. At a crucial point Gorbachev was able to change his approach and in the process, change the course of history. He reminded himself of his intention coming into the meeting. He reframes his perception of how Thatcher is acting. And he finds alignment with her on principles.

8:20 Pilar shares that a realisation that has been transformational for her: that people are generally not acting with malice - they are trying to do what they believe is right.

8:50 We can practice and get better at understanding and acting within the moment itself. But it takes a lot of effort. And time.

10:50 Letting go of our everyday habits and ego can free us to choose the best way to act. It also requires the empathy of understanding what is happening for the other person.

12:15 Our hosts wrestle with the regrets that come with learning and evolving. But our experiences make us the person that we are today.

14:15 Leadership is not a static state: "The personality and behaviour of someone will change with the context that the person is in, the thoughts and feelings that individual is experiencing and who else is present". Pilar shares a story about how a change in context made a big difference in her performance.

17:00 This framework reminds us that our habitual behaviours aren't always going to work. If we are able to be aware and present in the mome