Jo & JJ Go Mental Joanna Denton and Dr. JJ Kelly

Jo and J.J. welcome the inspirational Reb, Transformational Life Coach who is the driving force behind the Rise With Reb programs and community. Reb shares how she went from a wheelchair to walking, despite what the doctors said. She, Jo, and J.J. discuss why it’s so hard to let go of old habits, the responsibility we have of sharing our story on social media, the importance of advocating for yourself and doing your own research, and how not to live in a pity fest. 
 
Takeaway:
[2:02] Reb takes her own experience of overcoming physical, mental, and emotional challenges and now helps other women take control of their health and build up confidence. 
[4:48] We can really begin to work on ourselves when we take a good hard look at our own destructive willful patterns and our drive behind them. Reb shares how she got out of a bad relationship and realized it no longer served her to both be in the relationship and emotionally manipulate herself into thinking she needed a partner to be happy. 
[6:02] It can be a long road to forgive ourselves for enduring abuse and partaking in bad habits, but it is a true weight to let go of guilt and shame. 
[8:21] Reb talks about her fibromyalgia, and how she sought two types of therapy to really begin to process the childhood trauma and heal her body from the inside out.
[10:22] The more we heal ourselves, the more we can show up and be of service to others in a way that doesn’t drain us or leave us depleted. 
[11:51] There is a fear of letting go of our habits because they have been so deeply entrenched in our identity and how we make decisions. They keep us rooted. Jo shares that her stubbornness and willful behavior can be demonstrated in eating items that she knows don’t serve her health, and believing what her inner critic has to say. 
[16:03] People can take the first baby steps by admitting they are terrified, but still moving towards growth. 
[17:11] Jo talks about the phenomenon that we have different aspects within ourselves, much like an orchestra and the different chairs and positions. We can choose which “musician” or subpersonality comes out, and use it to our advantage in our personal and professional lives. J.J. explains why she may not like this way of thinking, but can see the analogy and some benefits, as long as it doesn’t block us or help us make excuses. 
[23:33] Reb lost followers when she chose to focus her content on recovery and body positivity. J.J. and Jo discuss how a collective should be a space where we rise up together.  If people are dragging each other down, even unintentionally, it can get really toxic really fast. 
[27:45] It’s a hard line to see and be able to catch yourself to see if you are wallowing, or sharing. It’s even harder and more complicated to call people out and stop them from wallowing, but it is really an act of love. 
[32:59] Reb feels free in speaking her belief because it comes from her heart. You can’t cancel her! 
[35:11] Re talks about her morning routine that serves her mental and physical health. Things don’t have to be perfect, but we can do the best we can every way and also lovingly call ourselves out when we aren’t doing what we know we need to do. If you fall off your routine, notice it, and then do better. 
[41:11] Reb waited 6 years to see a specialist, and realized when she finally saw them that she herself had already done so much research that she knew pretty much everything they had suggested. 
[42:09] What’s next for Reb? Creating a programme that helps people tap into their intuition and discover their power and confidence. Her vision is to create a programme that the NHS can refer to that features a network of healers and coaches in many different modalities. 
 
Connect With Us:
Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly
 
Reb:
Rise with Reb |  Twitter | Instagram | Podcast 

There is a heaviness in the air, with plenty of opportunities to focus on emotional intelligence and mental health recently between World Suicide Prevention Day and the 20th anniversary of 9/11. Today Jo and J.J. focus on grief, both from the perspective of the griever and from the person trying to comfort others through their grief. Too many people don’t know what to say or how to comfort someone who is facing loss, leaving the griever feeling even worse than they already did. Jo and J.J. explore the right approach to carrying ourselves and others through grief. Jo also shares an experience about willfulness and effectiveness in DBT and why people really need to learn to let go of the need to be right and just accept what is. They talk about defining values, setting boundaries, and, on a lighter note, why #begrannymolly is Jo’s new life goal.
 
Takeaway:
[1:21] J.J. reflects on her experience of being rescued from the draining aftermath of 9/11 and how she has drawn a hard line to protect herself on the 20th anniversary. For her, this meant avoiding social media, documentaries, and deliberately filling her energy up.
[6:58] Reaching out on a personal level when someone is grieving about anything matters, but the overused phrase “I’m sorry for your loss” is probably the wrong thing to say.  Jo offers a few statements that you can try instead.
[11:27] Too many people are afraid of facing death, or even talking about it. But that can lead to even greater hurt for the people that are grieving and surrounded by people who don’t know what to say because they haven’t figured out how to manage their own anxiety about death and loss.
[15:50] Side story — Jo’s 93-year-old Granny Molly was a member of the Geriatric Mafia - think three little old ladies (one registered blind, one deaf as a post and the third one with a dodgy hip) causing havoc on the bus and in the supermarket #begrannymolly.
[18:29] Everyone has to find the balance between the need to be right with the need to be effective. In DBT terms the behavior that gets in the way of being effective is called willfulness, which is just about the least offensive way to talk about stubborn, offensive, messed up behavior.
[21:03] How do you decide when to go into battle and when to walk away? Define your values, and if a situation is toxic, you have the right to walk away from it. The next step is to determine how far you need to go to get support from others, especially in work relationships between managers and employees.
[25:43] The physical reactions that you experience in tense situations can help you identify your anxiety level and decide how you should move forward. You can’t waste too much of your time worrying about what other people might be thinking about your actions.
[28:06] J.J. has found a new role model in Jo’s rock star family!
 
Connect With Us:
Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly

They’re baaack! Jo and J.J. kick off Season 2 the only way they know how - by spelling out that sometimes we can get this emotional intelligence piece wrong.  Many well intentioned leaders approach emotional intelligence as a tick box exercise, merely going through the motions, rather than really understanding the objective.  That faux emotional intelligence in corporate societies will likely try to cover up a more self serving agenda. Jo brings an article on the topic from the Harvard Business Review, and it leads to her and J.J. discussing how to spot inauthentic emotional intelligence, how we can develop actual skills to listen to what people really need, and why modern day EQ can seem so darn self serving. Also, J.J. shares an update on her third book, and what the process of finishing it is kicking up for her emotionally. 
 
Takeaway:
[2:11] J.J. shares an update on her third book, and it’s going to stir up a lot of stuff about the ego and narcissism, but it made her laugh, so that’s a good sign. She and Jo discuss the process of writing and how the sweet spot is always on the other side of the fear. 
[10:30] Fun fact for those who may not know: VAT stands for “value added taxes”.   Who knew?
[11:15] Jo reads from Harvard Business Review’s article, Is Your Emotional Intelligence Authentic or Is It Self-Serving? 
The author writes about three most common emotional intelligence counterfeits he has seen leaders get trapped in: 
A need to be the hero disguised as empathy.  A need to be right masquerading as active listening.  A need for approval dressed up as self-awareness.  [14:51] If some of these describe you, don’t panic! It doesn’t mean you are an awful person, we are often trained to do these to fit into our job or the larger thread of society. 
[18:17] We can feel the energy of inauthenticity on a primal level. 
[21:54] The White Knight syndrome is a co-dependent move where you think you are more together than everyone you socialize, and only you can help them. The Sexist Rescuer is also the person that swoops in to “help” someone and save them from sexism, but with a need to be recognized attached to it. 
[23:47] Emotional intelligence only works if you are asking yourself the hard questions. We may get a hit of shame, but it’s our only chance of moving forward. If you are in a group considered the minority, it is your responsibility to do the work on what triggers you and your blind spots. 
[29:12] There is verbal and emotional abuse veiled in emotional intelligence, which is the worst kind of abuse of power, and it’s up to us to take a hard look at ourselves and acknowledge our blind spots. 
 
Connect With Us:
Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kelly
 
 Is Your Emotional Intelligence Authentic or Is It Self-Serving? 
Madonna Inn 

What a season! As Jo and J.J. wrap up Season 1, they identify a few of the themes that came up with the fantastic array of guests. Between fear, shame, embracing your weirdness and much more, Season 1 was chock full of learning from each other and calling in new perspectives. This week, they highlight a few stand-out moments and give us a sneak peek of what we can look forward to in Season 2.
 
Takeaway:
[4:43] As Jo was reading the Sunday papers over breakfast, she came across an article she found interesting. Titled, “I Didn’t Have Burnout. It was a Lie,” designer Rebecca Minkoff explained why she dreaded going back to work after maternity leave, and why it may not have been her own burnout but external factors. This brings up the conversation of the pros and cons of more people speaking openly about burnout and putting a label on it. It may help people speak up and have language and feel less alone, but we can also over-identify with labels and not take accountability.
[9:44] Jo has gotten direct feedback from her presentations on burnout that talking about it helps bring it into the light and helps people feel less like they are losing their minds. When we know that it’s exhaustion rather than a character flaw or defect, we have structure and can get an actionable plan more into place.
[12:59] Jo and J.J. recap the amazing guests they have had this first season, and although the guests have all been quite different, each one of them offers their intelligence, perspective, and wisdom to the episode. A few of the themes that came from conversations include letting go of control, embracing your authentic nature and even the weirdness that may come along with it, and intentionality. A big one that came up, as it did here in the episode with author and coach Kristine Goad, is that the biggest adventure in life is to be yourself.
[17:05] Another theme was shame and guilt. We often have no idea the guilt or shame we carry around, as evidenced in the recent episode with Reverend Erika Allison who talked openly about her healing after conversion therapy. Jo used to feel guilty for not working during holidays. Most people suffer from the worry that they are not good enough, so they self-medicate with shame. Before we even try to problem solve and put our minds on the case, we must validate our emotions and sit in them for a moment.
[22:06] We are encouraged by society to burn ourselves out and be anxious. Products are sold by tapping into people’s fear and desire to constantly be better, skinnier and appear more wealthy. When you finally start to feel as though you are good enough, you can partake in these things from a place of joy instead of lack.
[25:42] These conversations are complex because if you are balancing self-care and acting according to your values, then productivity will go up. However, the more people can feel you setting boundaries, the more they sometimes want to push them.
[30:28] There are subtle and not-so-subtle ways that work environments try to trample people’s boundaries. Middle management is sometimes caught between the higher-up boss and the employee: this is when good communication and the ability to regulate emotions is critical.
[34:02] Great leaders can also help millennials and the younger workers have the right tools in place to both be great at their job but also have boundaries in place. Jo has been on both sides, and feels that a manager and employee can aim for constructive conversations around it.
[35:32] There are so many levels to power dynamics but there are easy ways to change.
[37:58] Women working for women can be challenging, and internalized sexism is definitely a thing. People may act like they have power over you, but it’s up to you to confirm it.
[41:14] What’s coming up for the next season? Great guests, listener questions, a deeper dive into topics, and a lot of laughs and learning along the way.
 
Connect With Us:
Joanna Denton | Dr. J.J. Kel

So often we hide our differences so we can fit in and belong. For some, doing this at work is extremely difficult or not even an option. This week, Jo and J.J. welcome Faith Clarke, Organizational Health and Inclusion Specialist who works with value-driven and diverse teams so they can deliver on business and social impact promises at the highest level. Faith is extremely passionate about inclusion for BIPOC and neuro-distinct individuals and advocating for those who “don’t belong”. She discusses the importance of mental health and how her children taught her to focus more on wisdom than having control. She talks about how organizations can change one small thing at a time and the importance of listening to the underserved and those having difficulties directly rather than assuming what they need.
 
Takeaway:
[3:46] Faith talks about the importance of mental health in parenting children with complex needs. She is a mom to autistic children, and it became very clear to her early on that maintaining her own self-care was the only way to nourish herself and her children in the process; staying in fixing mode 24/7 was never going to be sustainable.  
[5:29] Faith explains why she refers to her children as neuro distinct rather than neuro-typical. We are all diverse, and it fits better because her children deal with a wide range of distinct experiences including OCD, depression, and characteristics of autism.  
[8:42] The more we operate in the illusion that we are in control of everything and everyone, the more suffering we will feel. Faith talks with Jo and J.J. about mining from wisdom rather than the past. As a Caribbean woman, she quite literally has faith that she is able to handle challenging times and has a deep resilience for what life throws at her.
[10:50] Half of the struggle in autism is being in a world not quite meant for you. A large part of Faith’s mission is helping people create an environment that helps those who are neuro-distinct feel as though they can fully contribute in a way that fits for them.
[12:29] The stuffing down of emotions like anger and sadness is often what leads to the messes that need cleaning up and the bigger reactions like anxiety or panic attacks.
[17:24] Why do we have to fight for advocacy in the United States? Jo questions why it isn’t just the case that if someone gets diagnosed, they get the support and information they need without so much red tape and the need to jump over hoop after hoop. Jo’s jaw hits the floor thinking about the challenges built into the United States medical systems (particularly as she comes from a country with a free national health system). Faith explains that the person saying yes is often not the one being affected, and the system is built on a very old and patriarchal one with a lot of conscious and unconscious biases and blind spots.
[28:09] Smart people can self-medicate their anxiety with certainty and control, and when dealing with the neuro-distinct, that can be a recipe for disaster. Instead, we are better off starting from the ground floor to make the workplace more inclusive with recommendations by the people themselves that are affected most day to day.
[28:56] We come up with the right solutions when we ask the right questions to the right people. Faith says we should start with including the people actually at the table and hear what barriers they face in contributing.
[30:12] It may seem too good to be true, but work can actually be restorative and nourishing. It doesn’t have to be soul-draining, and when we build a workflow in a way that works with people instead of against them, we are more effective and productive.
[36:42] There are some key things companies should look for to see if there really are barriers in contribution: are people disengaged, is there too much or not enough conflict?  (the point on not enough conflict is an interesting one, as this can often be symptomatic of a team environment that d

Jo and J.J. welcome Reverend Erika Allison, Queer interfaith minister, speaker, author, and spiritual counselor. Rev. Erika talks about her own experience with conversion therapy, and how harmful it can be, causing long-term effects and even high cases of suicide. She talks about her healing and recovery, and the choice to forgive and let go of anger. Her book, Gay the Pray Away, guides readers on their own journey and can also serve as a powerful resource for someone who has a loved one coming out as a member of the LGBTQ+ community. She, Jo, and J.J. send a message to parents that almost anything can be worked through, and as more structures fall apart, we will welcome people more for who they truly are with open hearts.
 
Takeaway:
[3:24] Rev. Erika experienced firsthand how critical of an issue mental health is. She experienced conversion therapy and the lifelong healing journey that came with it. A staggering statistic is that if you come out of conversion therapy alive, you have a 92% chance of lifetime suicidal ideation. Mental health is something Rev. Erika is committed to working on forever, and her enthusiastic way helps even the most resistant person listen.
[6:49] Conversion therapy is an attempt to change someone’s orientation or gender identity. It can be done for social reasons, religious reasons, and many times it’s out of love and fear on the part of parents and family that the person will go to Hell, etc. This makes it even more confusing, and even though it has been widely discredited by professional mental health and medical organizations, it still goes on today. SOCE (sexual orientation change efforts) believes homosexuality is a curable disease, which can cause a profound amount of harm to an individual.
[11:29] Fear can cause us to lessen the ability to think critically and believe whatever outside authorities tell us. In families worried about their children being queer, they can revert back to believing whatever “the man” tells them. This can mean a religious figure, a doctor, etc.
[12:59] Rev. Erika talks about the long-term implications of her conversion therapy. She thought that because it hadn’t changed her sexual orientation there was no damage done, but she had to do a lot of work on how it affected her level of trust in relationships and the shame that came with the therapy.
[15:19] We tend to think our trauma isn’t as bad or important as someone else’s, but that can hold us back from healing. For Rev. Erika, the more she journaled, the more she tapped into her subconscious mind and saw harmful beliefs and blind spots that were scary, but necessary as part of the work.
[18:34] Jo has always been very academic, and the more work she did, the more she saw her beliefs that her parents telling her to “do her best” meant to her to “be the best”. This put a large amount of pressure and stress on her, feeling as though she was a failure and defective if she wasn’t at the top.
[21:37] Rev. Erika sought out communities that took responsibility for the impact of their intentions, words, and behavior. This is where Buddhism helped, and meditation and mindfulness helped her detach from her thoughts and become more of an observer.
[23:38] Conversion therapy can make someone feel as though they can’t trust themselves or their gut feelings. Rev. Erika saw this clearly when she hired a coach to help her breakthrough professional and personal barriers, and they commented that she had one foot on the gas, and also one foot on the brake. On the one hand, she was forging forward with her work and her message, but at the same time, there was something holding her back, stopping her from stepping completely into her work.  On reflection, she realized that she was trying to protect herself from someone saying something or judging her in a way that triggered beliefs she had about herself. She, Jo, and J.J. discuss how triggers are our responsibilities too, and you can only get t