88 episodes

Life is full of difficult things, from tiny everyday disappointments to life-altering events. Everyone’s at least a little bit Not OK, something grief expert and psychotherapist Megan Devine knows from the inside out. In wide ranging, insightful, deep conversations, Megan talks with people about their often invisible losses - and what they’ve learned about being seen and supported in difficult times. 

With guests pulled from the front lines of entertainment, medicine, education, and activism, the conversations in It’s OK that You’re Not OK are funny, complex, emotional, and hopeful - maybe not your typical dinner party topics, but none of us are entirely OK, and it’s time we start talking about that.

New episodes each and every Monday, from the author of the best-selling book, It’s OK That You’re Not OK, and iHeartMedia. Find Megan online at @refugeingrief & follow the show @ItsOKPod

It’s OK That You’re Not OK with Megan Devine iHeartPodcasts

    • Health & Fitness
    • 5.0 • 17 Ratings

Life is full of difficult things, from tiny everyday disappointments to life-altering events. Everyone’s at least a little bit Not OK, something grief expert and psychotherapist Megan Devine knows from the inside out. In wide ranging, insightful, deep conversations, Megan talks with people about their often invisible losses - and what they’ve learned about being seen and supported in difficult times. 

With guests pulled from the front lines of entertainment, medicine, education, and activism, the conversations in It’s OK that You’re Not OK are funny, complex, emotional, and hopeful - maybe not your typical dinner party topics, but none of us are entirely OK, and it’s time we start talking about that.

New episodes each and every Monday, from the author of the best-selling book, It’s OK That You’re Not OK, and iHeartMedia. Find Megan online at @refugeingrief & follow the show @ItsOKPod

    What’s It All For? Loss and Meaning In Midlife with Chip Conley

    What’s It All For? Loss and Meaning In Midlife with Chip Conley

    Midlife has a lot of messy stuff in it: divorce, the death of your parents, menopause, health scares, empty nests, career changes, feeling increasingly irrelevant - “midlife” has terrible branding, according to author, modern elder, hospitality expert, and CEO and co-founder of Modern Elder Academy Chip Conley. 

     

    What if midlife (and beyond) could include an ever deepening sense of self and more satisfying connections - right alongside all that cascading loss? 

     

    Chip and Megan start out talking about midlife, and wind their way to the power of telling the truth about your own life. In the middle, there’s grief: scary diagnoses, the deaths of friends, a near death experience, and some personal wake up calls to the meaning of life. 

     

    It’s Ok that You’re Not Ok in the mixed bag of midlife. 

     

    6 things you’ll learn in this episode:


    How “hospitality” manifests itself inside grief (and life)
    How suicide deaths in your friend group impact the rest of your life
    What it’s like facing a cancer recurrence *just* as you’re feeling yourself come back to life
    Why community is crucial to our survival
    Coming out as a gay man in the 1980’s, and what coming out to yourself might mean now
    Why you want multigenerational relationships, no matter how old you are now



    Content note: this episode contains mention of suicide, along with brief mention of the method. 

     

    Related episodes:

    Baratunde Thurston on the power of community



    Notable quotes: 

    “One of the challenges with grief is the feeling like it will never end. If you can actually understand what it means to be in that messy middle, you can actually move through the grief more in a more natural, humane, and accelerated fashion.” - Chip Conley

     

    “It is not required that you change the world because of what you've experienced in your life.” - Megan Devine

     

    About our guest:

    Chip Conley is a strategic advisor for hospitality and leadership at Airbnb, founder of the Modern Elder Academy, which helps people in their ‘third age’ find a new path forward, and author of Wisdom @ Work: The Making of a Modern Elder. He was a founder board member for Burning Man. Find him on social @ChipConley



    About Megan: 

    Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries. 

    The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.

     

    Additional resources:

    Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions: your questions, answered.



    Chip’s book - Wisdom @ Work: The Making of a Modern Elder

    Modern Elder Academy

    Man’s Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl

    The Rumi Collection: An Anthology of Translations of Mevlana Jalaluddin Rumi

     

    Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed 

     

    Books and resources may contain affiliate links.



    Get in touch:

    Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, tag us on social with your thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

     

    Follow the show on TikTok @itsokpod and use the hashtag #ItsOkPod on all social platforms

     

    For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok, and follow Megan on LinkedIn

     

    For more information, including clinical training

    • 47 min
    Living with Chronic Illness: A Conversation for Everyone with a Body, with Sarah Ramey

    Living with Chronic Illness: A Conversation for Everyone with a Body, with Sarah Ramey

    Look, there are some things in life - a LOT of things in life - that just can’t be fixed or made better, you have to figure out how you’re going to live with them. If you’ve ever felt othered and invisible because of an illness or disability - this episode is for you. If you’ve ever loved someone with a chronic illness, or you’re a medical provider in any capacity, this episode is 3000% for you. And if you’re grieving some other loss or hardship, you’ll recognize so much of yourself in this conversation: that human desire to be seen, loved, and supported, exactly as you are. 

     

    Sarah Ramey spent DECADES trying to find answers for why her body was falling apart. Her book, The Lady’s Handbook for Her Mysterious Illness, describes the complex, convoluted path through conventional and alternative medicines, her frustrations with being deemed a liar and hypochondriac, and the overlapping issues of misogyny, ableism, and well meaning but unhelpful support. 

     

    5 things you’ll learn in this episode: 


    What it’s really like having a chronic, invisible illness (and if you have one, you’ll feel seen!)
    How truly messed up the medical system is: Sarah’s years’ long efforts to be believed by doctors, and at a minimum: not be overtly harmed while seeking care
    How does being in a female body shift your odds of being believed - for ANYTHING, but especially mysterious, chronic illnesses? 
    Sarah’s music was featured in the hit show “Wednesday,” on Netflix. Can you be a successful musician and have a disability? 
    Why hope is a complex concept when your life is constrained by illness or disability (and why hope is still REALLY important)



    To join the next embodied writing course mentioned in the show, sign up at roottherapymaine.com



    Notable quotes: 

    So much of the experience of having one of these illnesses is sort of having to turn yourself inside to make everybody else be able to see what you can feel, but they can't see. - Sarah Ramey

     

    There's just this incredible dehumanization that has sort of taken over medicine. If you have a problem that is disbelieved by medicine, it often feels like, why did I come at all? Why am I paying even a single dollar to be made to feel like I am a worthless, bad person, who's a liar and a malingerer? - Sarah Ramey

     

    You have to start with believing what the people living it are telling you. Nothing else can happen unless you listen, and you believe. - Megan Devine 



    About our guest:

    Sarah Ramey is a writer and musician (known as Wolf Larsen). Her work has been featured in The Paris Review, NPR, The Atlantic, The Washington Post, Ms. Magazine, and the Netflix show, Wednesday. Her book, The Lady’s Handbook for Her Mysterious Illness was a starred selection for Publisher’s Weekly, Kirkus Reviews, and Booklist. Learn more at sarahmarieramey.com and wolflarsenmusic.com.

    Sarah has been living with serious chronic pain and illness for seventeen years. 

     

    About Megan: 

    Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries. 

     

    The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.

     

    Additional resources:

    To join the next embodied writing course mentioned in the show, sign up at roottherapymaine.com

     

    Read Sarah’s memoir: The Lady’s Handbook for Her Mysterious Illness 

     

    Listen to Sarah’s solo album: Quiet at the Kitchen Door 

     

    Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live

    • 1 hr 4 min
    Collective Grief and Communal Joy: with Baratunde Thurston

    Collective Grief and Communal Joy: with Baratunde Thurston

    Can you heal pain by focusing on joy? 

     

    Baratunde Thurston gave what’s been called “the greatest TED talk of all time.” He’s written about being Black in America, he’s got a podcast about community involvement called How to Citizen, and he’s got a television show that explores the beauty and diversity of America. 

     

    There’s a duality running through all of this work, and in Baratunde’s personal life: mourning and celebration. From the early death of a parent, to men’s emotional health, to violence against Black men and boys, to the healing power of play and community, this week’s episode is a fascinating discussion of both grief and celebration - and why you don’t get one without the other. 

     

    In this episode we cover: 

     


    Baratunde says he’s “wired for optimism” - which makes identifying his own grief… complicated
    Transactional emotions - for example, feeling your grief so you can “get beyond it”
    The need for Black male role models
    How you can lose a parent at a young age and not recognize the impact until you’re an adult
    Why seeing other people be good parents can bring up grief
    What it’s like to see violence against people who look like you - over and over and over
    Black joy and mens’ community (plus the hashtag #BlackMenFrolicking)
    Why is it hard to play as an adult - and find other adults to play with? 
    How to use your powerpoint slides to keep emotions in check (and why Baratunde isn’t using slides in his talks anymore) 
    The nature of our interconnectedness as a species and a planet 



    Notable quotes: 

    “I'm looking at other joyful, hopeful ways of being that don't require waiting for someone to (change), or accepting suffering as the main narrative. Those don’t fit me anymore. And so I acknowledge parallel paths to freedom - things like joy and silliness.” - Baratunde Thurston

     

    “We're about men's business which is stoicism and pain and suppressed human experiences. That's what it is to be a man.” - Baratunde Thurston

     

    “My hope is grounded in our creative possibility, in our own creativity. We can be destructively creative, but I also think we can be beautifully, you know - hopefully, creative.” - Baratunde Thurston



    About our guest:

    Baratunde Thurston is an Emmy-nominated, multi-platform storyteller and producer operating at the intersection of race, tech, democracy, and climate. He is the host of the PBS television series America Outdoors with Baratunde Thurston, creator and host of How To Citizen with Baratunde, and a founding partner of the new media startup Puck. His comedic memoir, How To Be Black, is a New York Times best-seller. In 2019, he delivered what MSNBC’s Brian Williams called “one of the greatest TED talks of all time.” 

     

    Baratunde serves on the boards of BUILD.org and the Brooklyn Public Library and lives in Los Angeles, California. Find more at baratunde.com



    About Megan: 

    Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries. 

    The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.

     

    Additional resources:

    Baratunde’s book - How to be Black 

    Baratunde’s TED talk How to Deconstruct Racism, One Headline at a Time  ‘America is addicted to watching me die…’ - Article in Puck 

    Black Men Frolicking

    Baratunde’s Podcast - How To Citizen

    PBS America Outdoors

    Baratunde’s website

    Baratunde’s media outlet, Puck.news

    Baratunde mentioned Valarie Kaur - ge

    • 1 hr
    Is There Grief In Politics? with Dr. Gabor Maté

    Is There Grief In Politics? with Dr. Gabor Maté

    Is there really a way to understand politics if you understand grief? In this bonus episode with Dr. Gabor Maté, we explore the interconnections of grief, trauma, politics, and policies. If you think politics and grief have nothing in common (or you think you don’t care about politics!) this short conversation might change your mind. 

     

    In this episode we cover: 

     


    Why people get uncomfortable connecting grief & politics
    How evidence of trauma shows up in politics (and what Megan and Hillary Clinton have in common)
    Why conversations about emotions, emotional skills, and mental health have to include conversations about policies and politics 

     

    About the guest:

    Dr. Gabor Maté is a renowned speaker and author, with expertise in trauma, stress, addiction, and child development. He’s the NYT best-selling author of The Myth of Normal, the award-winning In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, and many other books. 

     

    Find him at drgabormate.com

     

    About Megan: 

    Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries. 

    The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.



    Additional resources:

     

    Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed  



    Books and research mentioned in this episode 


    The Myth of Normal by Gabor Maté


    Article on Hillary Clinton’s traumatic family history 
    NYT Fighting Maternal Mortality Among Black Women



    Books and resources may contain affiliate links. 

     

    Get in touch:

     

    Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, tag us on social with your thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

     

    Follow the show on TikTok @itsokpod and use the hashtag #ItsOkPod on all social platforms

     

    For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok, and follow Megan on LinkedIn

     

    For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at megandevine.co

     

     

    Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A sessions: your questions, answered.
    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    • 10 min
    Why Do We Celebrate Trauma (aka: Resilience)? with Dr. Gabor Maté

    Why Do We Celebrate Trauma (aka: Resilience)? with Dr. Gabor Maté

    Did anyone teach you that understanding your grief is the key to being (or becoming) a healthy human being? Probably not. 

     

    In this expansive episode, Megan speaks with world-renowned author and physician Gabor Maté about the role of trauma and grief in our personal lives and in society at large.  Dr. Gabor Maté on grief, this week on It’s OK that You’re Not OK, the podcast. 

     

    In this episode we cover: 

     


    What is “personal agency” and why does losing personal agency create disease? 
    Why calling grief a disorder has social, relational and political ramifications
    How do elephants grieve? Is it really so different from humans? 
    Women as the emotional shock absorbers for the rest of the world
    Why we often ignore other peoples’ pain to make ourselves comfortable
    Does taking pain seriously make you more hopeful? 
    Dr. Gabor Maté’s conversation with Prince Harry (!) 

     

    About the guest:

    Dr. Gabor Maté is a renowned speaker and author, with expertise in trauma, stress, addiction, and child development. He’s the NYT best-selling author of The Myth of Normal, the award-winning In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, and many other books. 

     

    Find him at drgabormate.com



    About Megan: 

    Psychotherapist and bestselling author Megan Devine is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. She helms a consulting practice in Los Angeles and serves as an organizational consultant for the healthcare and human resources industries. 

    The best-selling book on grief in over a decade, Megan’s It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, is a global phenomenon that has been translated into more than 25 languages. Her celebrated animations and explainers have garnered over 75 million views and are used in training programs around the world.



    Additional resources:

    Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed  

     

    Books and research mentioned in this episode 


    The Myth of Normal by Gabor Maté
    Scattered Minds by Gabor Maté
    The Wisdom of Trauma - documentary exploring Gabor Maté’s work to understand the connection between illness, addiction, trauma, and society.  
    Jaak Panksepp researched connections between human emotion processing and other mammals
    Hold Onto Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld & Gabor Maté
    Research on early trauma in elephants
    The Washington Post article about Megan’s loss
    NYT Mothers are The ‘Shock Absorbers’ Of Our Society 


    Article on Hillary Clinton’s traumatic family history 
    NYT Fighting Maternal Mortality Among Black Women

     

    Books and resources may contain affiliate links.



    Get in touch:

    Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of It’s OK that You’re Not OK. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review, tag us on social with your thoughts, and share the show with everyone you know. Together, we can make things better, even when they can’t be made right. 

     

    Follow the show on TikTok @itsokpod and use the hashtag #ItsOkPod on all social platforms

     

    For grief support & education, follow us at @refugeingrief on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok, and follow Megan on LinkedIn

     

    For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at megandevine.co
    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    • 47 min
    It's Ok That You're Not Okay: Season 3!

    It's Ok That You're Not Okay: Season 3!

    Season three begins Monday May 8th, with all new shows and amazing guests. Follow now so you don’t miss an episode!
    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    • 57 sec

Customer Reviews

5.0 out of 5
17 Ratings

17 Ratings

215 B ,

All of Megan Devine’s work on grief

I so appreciate Megan Devine’s body of work on grief and her ability to challenge our anti grief culture in North America. Thank you Megan for your insight, dedication and knowledge. You’ve helped make the unbearable ( loss of a 19 year old son to aggressive cancer ) slightly more bearable, grateful for your podcasts and books!

Thank you Megan Devine for speaking so eloquently to the tough stuff, the hard parts of life.
Appreciate your work so much.
Having lost my son , you have been a lifeline!
Jackie MacKay

CourtSlobo ,

This Show is for Every Single Human

Megan Devine is one of the few voices who puts truth to pain and guides us towards honest ways of living with the realities of being human, when being human hurts more than we ever thought possible.

nomanleft4me ,

Megan is a Gift

I’ll never get tired of hearing her talk. Megan has such a refreshing and inclusive way of talking about death and grieving. She gives people permission to be themselves by acknowledging the many diverse experiences people have during the hardest times in their lives. She’s honest, open hearted and truly deserves respect for taking her own experience with grief and using it to create a world where people who are grieving can get the support and acknowledgment they truly deserve. So much love and respect to you, Megan.

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