The Pupillage Podcast The Pupillage Podcast

For the final episode of the Pupillage Podcast, we look into the future: what lies ahead for the Bar? Are the robots coming for our wigs and gowns? We heard from three guests who have given this a lot of thought and found that the changes ahead are bigger than we could ever have imagined…

Guests

Jamie Susskind: author, speaker and barrister at Littleton Chambers http://www.littletonchambers.com/barrister/jamie-susskind/ and https://www.jamiesusskind.com/. To follow Jamie on Twitter @jamiesusskind and you can buy Future Politics here https://www.amazon.co.uk/Future-Politics-Living-Together-Transformed/dp/0198825617/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1537175876&sr=1-1&keywords=jamie+susskind+future+politics

Alex Glassbrook: barrister at Temple Garden Chambers https://tgchambers.com/member-profile/alex-glassbrook/ and author of the Law of Driverless Cars: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Law-Driverless-Cars-Introduction/dp/1911035282

Dr Christopher Markou: Fellow of Jesus College Cambridge https://www.law.cam.ac.uk/people/cp-markou/6574


Useful Links

A futurist’s reading list:

Future Politics by Jamie Susskind: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Future-Politics-Living-Together-Transformed/dp/0198825617/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1537175876&sr=1-1&keywords=jamie+susskind+future+politics

‘Tomorrow’s Lawyers’ by Richard Susskind
Forthcoming book by Richard Susskind ‘Online Courts and the Future of Justice’: https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Online-Courts-Justice-Richard-Susskind/dp/0198838360/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=online+courts+and+the+future+of+justice+susskind&qid=1565944646&s=gateway&sr=8-1

‘Hello World’ by Hannah Fry https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hello-World-How-Human-Machine/dp/1784163066/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1565946419&sr=1-1

For the decision of Leggatt J (as he then was) referred to by Alex Glassbrook: Gestmin SGPS S.A. v Credit Suisse [2013] EWHC 3560 (Comm) https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Comm/2013/3560.html

‘Weapons of Math Destruction by Cathy O’Neill by https://smile.amazon.com/Weapons-Math-Destruction-Increases-Inequality/dp/0553418815/ref=smi_www_rco2_go_smi_g3905707922?_encoding=UTF8&%2AVersion%2A=1&%2Aentries%2A=0&ie=UTF8


‘The Black Box Society’ by Frank Pasquale https://smile.amazon.com/Black-Box-Society-Algorithms-Information/dp/0674970845/ref=sr_1_1?crid=21KT2GUNTQ3VD&keywords=black+box+society&qid=1565968786&s=gateway&sprefix=black+box+so%2Cstripbooks-intl-ship%2C276&sr=8-1


‘Novacene’ by James Lovelock https://smile.amazon.com/Novacene-Coming-Age-Hyperintelligence-Press/dp/0262043645/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=novacene&qid=1565968810&s=gateway&sr=8-1


Glossary

ADM: Automated Decision Making, the process of making a decision by automated means without any human involvement e.g. a refund for an Amazon purchase to be returned; an online decision to award a loan.

Blockchain: a secure, encrypted, peer-to-peer transaction ledger used to record transactions

AI: Artificial Intelligence, an area of computer science which aims to create ‘intelligent’ machines (computers).

What if you are doing the GDL or the BPTC, or you’re searching for pupillage or busy
doing pupillage or you’re finally practising as a barrister… but you have a nagging
feeling that you’re the wrong person in the wrong place? And it’s not just that you
don’t want to be a barrister, but – horror of horrors – you don’t want to be a lawyer.
This episode is a little different from the others: in it we hear from people who have
decided to move away from the law. Our guests tell us how it felt to come to the
realisation that they wanted to get off the road marked ‘lawyer’ and travel somewhere
else; what practical steps they took to create their new careers and why it is that a
training in law stands you in good stead no matter where you end up. We loved hearing
about their experiences – we hope you do too!

Guests
Katrina Kutchinsky: for more information about Katrina, see
http://leagueofher.com/katrina-kutchinsky-founder-story/
Katrina’s PR company: https://www.akacomms.com/ and follow her on Twitter
@katrina_KK

Kathryn Perera: Director of NHS Horizons, @kathrynperera

Alex Aldridge: founder and publisher of Legal Cheek www.legalcheek.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/alex-aldridge-99728913/?originalSubdomain=uk
and follow Alex on twitter @AlexAldridgeUK

Olivia Potts: cordon bleu patissiere https://ahalfbakedidea.co.uk/, writer, author of A Half
Baked Idea available here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Half-Baked-Idea-courtroom-
Cordon/dp/0241380456/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=half+baked+idea&qid=1565876083&s=book
s&sr=1-1 and follow Olivia on twitter: @_Poots_ and Instagram @ahalfbakedidea

Alex Macqueen: actor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Macqueen and follow him twitter:
@Alex_Macqueen

What if you love the idea of being a lawyer but, in the end, don’t really fancy being a barrister? There are so many varied and exciting careers to be had under the rubric ‘lawyer’. In this episode we explore a few of the alternatives, and hear from our guests what the world is like beyond the Bar.

Guests
Christina Blacklaws: President of the Law Society until 2019:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/christinablacklaws/?originalSubdomain=uk
EJ Johnston Hawke: trainee solicitor at Edwards Duthie Shamash,
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/ej-johnston-hawke-42132343
Millicent Grant: President of the Chartered Institute of Legal Executives July 2018-July
2019
https://www.cilex.org.uk/about_cilex/the_cilex_council_archive/the_cilex_president
Master Lisa Osofsky: Director of the Serious Fraud Office
https://www.sfo.gov.uk/about-us/biographies/

Useful Links
Young Legal Aid Lawyers: http://www.younglegalaidlawyers.org
Becoming a legal aid lawyer: https://www.chambersstudent.co.uk/where-to-
start/newsletter/becoming-a-legal-aid-lawyer
Chartered Institute of Legal Executives: www.cilex.org.uk
Serious Fraud Office careers: https://www.sfo.gov.uk/about-us/careers/
Law society of England and Wales: https://www.lawsociety.org.uk

Glossary
Magic Circle firm: name given to the group of five city law firms in London considered to be ‘the best’ (Allen & Overy, Clifford Chance, Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer, Linklaters,
Slaughter and May).

Legal Aid work: legal aid is state funding for individuals unable to pay for legal representation in criminal, and some housing, family and immigration cases. Legal aid work is work in these areas. The fees are paid by the state, and administered by the Legal Aid Agency.
SFO: Serious Fraud Office a specialist prosecuting authority tackling the top level of serious or complex fraud, bribery and corruption. The SFO takes on a small number of large economic crime cases involving serious or complex fraud.

After 12 months of pupillage you’re told you’re not going to be offered tenancy. It’s really tough, there’s no doubt about it. But it’s most definitely not the end of the world lots of highly successful barristers (and some judges!) have done third sixes. In this episode our guests remind you to keep in mind how far you’ve come, encourage you to
be proactive and tell you how to pivot quickly, figure out your place in the market and bag a third six. They also give you some top tips for how to handle that third six, impress chambers and and convert pupillage into tenancy.

Guests
Ryan Turner, barrister at Lamb Chambers: https://www.lambchambers.co.uk/who-can-
help-you/barristers/ryan-turner
Olivia Potts, former barrister and now cordon bleu baker: https://ahalfbakedidea.co.uk
on twitter @_poots_ and Instagram @ahalfbakedidea
Alistair Richardson, barrister at 6 KBW College Hill
https://www.6kbw.com/people/barristers/alistair-richardson

Useful Links
The list of chambers recruiting for third sixes: https://www.barcouncil.org.uk/careers/third-
six-vacancies-and-best-practice/
Some more information on the STAR interview technique:
https://www.thebalancecareers.com/what-is-the-star-interview-response-technique-2061629

Last year data protection law firmly made its presence felt in all of our lives when we got dozens of emails about privacy notices and the GDPR: as Christopher Knight, one of our guests on today’s episode points out, data protection applies to everyone everywhere. So what does that mean for a data protection law practice? And what is the difference anyway between data protection law and information law?
Meanwhile, the news is full of issues which potentially concern planning and environmental lawyers, from HS2’s troubles to the housing crisis, to Extinction Rebellion’s demands for a reduction in carbon emissions, and the Mayor of London’s commitment to a reduction in air pollution.
We wanted to investigate what it’s like to have a practice in these areas of law, so in this episode we talk to barristers Christopher Knight and James Pereira QC about their respective practices in Data and Information Law and Planning and Environmental law. We learn how to keep calm amongst the Data Protection Act’s subclauses, and why a planning practice is partly about listening to people’s stories and selling a vision of the future.

Guests
Christopher Knight: barrister at 11KBW https://www.11kbw.com/barristers/christopher-
knight/
James Pereira QC: barrister at Francis Taylor Building
https://www.ftbchambers.co.uk/barristers/james-pereira-qc

Useful Links
11KBW’s Panopticon: https://panopticonblog.com/

Privacy International: https://privacyinternational.org/

Open Rights Group: https://www.openrightsgroup.org/

Media Law Defence Initiative: https://www.mediadefence.org/

Article 19: https://www.article19.org/

Big Brother Watch: https://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk

The Information Commissioner’s website: https://ico.org.uk

Peter Carey’s Freedom of Information Handbook: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Freedom-
Information-Handbook-Peter-Carey/dp/1907698183 and his book on Data Protection
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Data-Protection-Practical-Guide-law/dp/0198815417/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1567084243&refinements=p_27%3APeter+Carey&s=b
ooks&sr=1-1&text=Peter+Carey

Glossary
FOIA: Freedom of Information Act
GDPR: General Data Protection Regulation
DPA: Data Protection Act
ICCPR: International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights

These practice areas are, in the words of one of our guests, not for the weak-hearted. But if you are up for the varied and exacting challenges that a personal injury or clinical negligence presents, you will find yourself richly rewarded. We hear from Farah Mauladad who explains to us what it takes to cross-examine someone who went into hospital perfectly fit and came out tetraplegic, and from Gerard McDermott QC whose clients have often suffered catastrophic and life-changing injuries: he leaves us in no doubt that health and safety really
matters.

Guests
Farrah Mauladad: barrister at Crown Office Chambers
https://www.crownofficechambers.com/barristers/farrah-mauladad/
Master Gerard McDermott QC: barrister at Outer Temple Chambers
https://www.outertemple.com/barristers/gerard-mcdermott-qc/ and to follow Gerard on
twitter https://twitter.com/mcdermottqc?lang=en

Useful Links
Association of Personal Injury Lawyers: https://www.apil.org.uk
Action against Medical Accidents: https://www.avma.org.uk

Glossary
CFA: Conditional Fee Agreement – sometimes known as ‘no win no fee’