"Upstream" with Erik Torenberg Turpentine

This week on Upstream, Nathan Labenz of The Cognitive Revolution podcast and Brian Chau, a machine learning engineer who recently founded the Alliance for the Future, talk about Brian's efforts in Washington, D.C. to influence AI policy based on informed AI optimism. After their conversation, Nathan and Erik chat about the AI landscape. Access global engineering without the headache and at a fraction of the cost: head to https://choosesquad.com and mention “Turpentine” to skip the waitlist.
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This show is produced by Turpentine: a network of podcasts, newsletters, and more, covering technology, business, and culture — all from the perspective of industry insiders and experts. We’re launching new shows every week, and we’re looking for industry-leading sponsors — if you think that might be you and your company, email us at erik@turpentine.co.
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SPONSORS: BEEHIIV | SQUAD
Head to Beehiiv, the newsletter platform built for growth, to power your own. Connect with premium brands, scale your audience, and deliver a beautiful UX that stands out in an inbox. 🐝 Head to https://Beehiiv.com and use code "UPSTREAM" for 20% off your first three months.

💥 Access global engineering without the headache and at a fraction of the cost: head to https://choosesquad.com and mention “Turpentine” to skip the waitlist.
--
RECOMMENDED PODCAST: @turpentinefinance
Host Sasha Orloff (3x Founder & CEO) is joined by top founders and finance leaders at high growth tech companies who share how they navigated huge make-or-break decisions, rode inflection points, and architected success. If you want to learn the mental models and tactics top business leaders and CFOs, subscribe below. Debut episode features Casey Woo unpacking his wild ride managing billions in budgets at WeWork – arguably one of the craziest capital stories ever.
Listen on Spotify: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/e3-chris-bakke-on-negotiating-with-elon-musk-and/id1704418764?i=1000652828571
Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/e3-chris-bakke-on-negotiating-with-elon-musk-and/id1704418764?i=1000652828571
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Alliance for the Future: https://www.affuture.org/
Brian's article on research progress in AI: https://www.affuture.org/research/3-diminishing/
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X / TWITTER:
https://twitter.com/psychosort (Brian)
https://twitter.com/labenz (Nathan)
https://twitter.com/eriktorenberg (Erik)
https://twitter.com/Upstream__Pod (Upstream)
https://twitter.com/TurpentineMedia (Turpentine)
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For guest or sponsorship inquiries please contact Sam@turpentine.co

This week on Upstream, we’re releasing an episode from Turpentine’s show Live Players with Samo Burja. Erik and Samo discuss China’s universities and the future of China’s elites. Access global engineering without the headache and at a fraction of the cost: head to https://choosesquad.com and mention “Turpentine” to skip the waitlist.
--
This show is produced by Turpentine: a network of podcasts, newsletters, and more, covering technology, business, and culture — all from the perspective of industry insiders and experts. We’re launching new shows every week, and we’re looking for industry-leading sponsors — if you think that might be you and your company, email us at erik@turpentine.co.
--
SPONSORS: BEEHIIV | SQUAD
Head to Beehiiv, the newsletter platform built for growth, to power your own. Connect with premium brands, scale your audience, and deliver a beautiful UX that stands out in an inbox.  🐝to https://Beehiiv.com and use code "UPSTREAM" for 20% off your first three months.

💥 Access global engineering without the headache and at a fraction of the cost: head to https://choosesquad.com and mention “Turpentine” to skip the waitlist.
--
RECOMMENDED PODCAST: @turpentinefinance
Host Sasha Orloff (3x Founder & CEO) is joined by top founders and finance leaders at high growth tech companies who share how they navigated huge make-or-break decisions, rode inflection points, and architected success. If you want to learn the mental models and tactics top business leaders and CFOs, subscribe below. Debut episode features Casey Woo unpacking his wild ride managing billions in budgets at WeWork – arguably one of the craziest capital stories ever.
Listen on Spotify: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/e3-chris-bakke-on-negotiating-with-elon-musk-and/id1704418764?i=1000652828571
Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/e3-chris-bakke-on-negotiating-with-elon-musk-and/id1704418764?i=1000652828571

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X / TWITTER:
https://twitter.com/SamoBurja (Samo)
https://twitter.com/eriktorenberg (Erik)
https://twitter.com/Upstream__Pod (Upstream)
https://twitter.com/TurpentineMedia (Turpentine)
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TIMESTAMPS:
(00:00:00) - Episode Preview
(00:00:57) - Universities as an example of US-China parallel evolution
(00:02:53) - Academia during The Cultural Revolution
(00:04:00) - The elite Chinese universities
(00:06:00) - Signaling theory of education
(00:06:30) - What the increase in educated leaders means for China’s ruling class
(00:07:52) - China as America’s mirror
(00:08:30) - China’s “woke”
(00:11:29) - How Xi wants China to not fail in the same way the Soviets did
(00:12:50) - Crackdown on university students
(00:14:46) - Sponsor: Squad | Turpentine
(00:15:00) - Rise of student activism in the US
(00:19:05) - The translation of regional/ethnic inequalities into ideological ones
(00:22:30) - The political ideological paradox generates an opportunity to organize young people
(00:24:30) - Role of gender in divergent politics and the East Asian “woke”
(00:27:12) - Chinese feminism
(00:34:58) - The formation of elites in US and China
(00:36:40) - Materialist focused education in China vs legal focused education in US
(00:39:47) - Printing university degrees is like printing money by devaluing degrees
(00:40:19) - Fight over Harvard Extension School
(00:42:20) - Will American universities have as much power in the next 10 years as they do now?
(00:46:05) - What positive and negative changes will China see in the near future?
(00:47:00) - Silicon Valley in China
(00:49:09) - The shift in leadership from businessmen to academia in China

For guest or sponsorship inquiries please contact Sam@turpentine.co

This episode was initially recorded before a live audience in 2018. Erik talks with Naval Ravikant and Balaji Srinivasan about the history of money and centralization and why crypto has the potential to fulfill the promise of the internet. Access global engineering without the headache and at a fraction of the cost: head to https://choosesquad.com and mention “Turpentine” to skip the waitlist.
--
This show is produced by Turpentine: a network of podcasts, newsletters, and more, covering technology, business, and culture — all from the perspective of industry insiders and experts. We’re launching new shows every week, and we’re looking for industry-leading sponsors — if you think that might be you and your company, email us at erik@turpentine.co.
--
SPONSOR: BEEHIIV | SQUAD
Head to Beehiiv, the newsletter platform built for growth, to power your own. Connect with premium brands, scale your audience, and deliver a beautiful UX that stands out in an inbox.  🐝to https://Beehiiv.com and use code "UPSTREAM" for 20% off your first three months.

Squad:💥 Access global engineering without the headache and at a fraction of the cost: head to https://choosesquad.com and mention “Turpentine” to skip the waitlist.
--
RECOMMENDED PODCAST: Turpentine Finance
Host Sasha Orloff (3x Founder & CEO) is joined by top founders and finance leaders at high growth tech companies who share how they navigated huge make-or-break decisions, rode inflection points, and architected success. If you want to learn the mental models and tactics top business leaders and CFOs, subscribe below. Debut episode features Casey Woo unpacking his wild ride managing billions in budgets at WeWork – arguably one of the craziest capital stories ever.
Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5BflNhFxxLjqT2RA47352G
Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id1704418764
Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@turpentinefinance
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TIMESTAMPS:
(00:00) Intro
(00:30) Decentralization and Blockchain: A Deep Dive with Naval Ravikant and Balaji Srinivasan
(06:22) Personal Journeys into the World of Cryptocurrency
(08:27) Debating Bitcoin vs. Blockchain: Perspectives and Predictions
(12:22) Sponsors: Squad | Turpentine
(14:33) The Social and Economic Implications of Blockchain Technology
(19:55) Blockchain Beyond Money: Envisioning Future Applications
(22:43) Crypto as a Social Phenomenon: Tribalism and Governance
(28:10) Envisioning a Decentralized Future: Microeconomics and Global Impact
(31:36) The Irony of Missing Out: Venture Capitalists and Karma
(36:02) The Global Impact of Blockchain on Identity and Ownership
(36:54) Navigating Regulations in a Decentralized Economy
(38:29)The Role of Crypto in Redefining Wealth Distribution
(40:05) Balaji and Naval's Vision
(46:48) What Do Failure Models Look Like?
(51:43) How Blockchain Can Provide New Career Opportunities, Not Just In Silicon Valley
(53:33) The Potential and Challenges of Emerging Technologies
(54:55) Identity in a Blockchain World
(58:23) On Blockchain Intersecting With Other Emerging Technologies
(59:57) What Types Of Players Are Going To Be The Big Winners And Losers?
(1:00:56) Empowering the Next Generation of Builders
(1:04:04) Visionary Ideas for Changing the World
(1:05:41) Wrap
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X / TWITTER:
https://twitter.com/naval (Naval)
https://twitter.com/balajis (Balaji)
https://twitter.com/eriktorenberg (Erik)
https://twitter.com/Upstream__Pod (Upstream)
https://twitter.com/TurpentineMedia (Turpentine)
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For guest or sponsorship inquiries please contact Sam@turpentine.co
Music license: OYOCYNQ0XUH22PB8

This week on Upstream, Erik is joined by Nathan Labenz and Noah Smith for a deep dive on how AI will impact job markets, the social contract, and the role of the government. Access global engineering without the headache and at a fraction of the cost: head to https://choosesquad.com and mention “Turpentine” to skip the waitlist.
--
SPONSORS: BEEHIIV | SQUAD | BRAVE
Head to Beehiiv, the newsletter platform built for growth, to power your own. Connect with premium brands, scale your audience, and deliver a beautiful UX that stands out in an inbox.  🐝to https://Beehiiv.com and use code "UPSTREAM" for 20% off your first three months.

Squad:💥 Access global engineering without the headache and at a fraction of the cost: head to https://choosesquad.com and mention “Turpentine” to skip the waitlist.
Brave: Get first-party targeting with Brave’s private ad platform: cookieless and future proof ad formats for all your business needs. Performance meets privacy. Head to https://brave.com/brave-ads/ and mention “MoZ” when signing up for a 25% discount on your first campaign.
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RELATED SHOW: 10x Capital Podcast
Check out our show The 10x Capital Podcast with David Weisburd, where David talks to the investors behind the investors: https://10xcapitalpodcast.com/

RECOMMENDED PODCAST: Turpentine Finance  
Host Sasha Orloff (3x Founder & CEO) is joined by top founders and finance leaders at high growth tech companies who share how they navigated huge make-or-break decisions, rode inflection points, and architected success. If you want to learn the mental models and tactics top business leaders and CFOs, subscribe below. Debut episode features Casey Woo unpacking his wild ride managing billions in budgets at WeWork – arguably one of the craziest capital stories ever.

Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5BflNhFxxLjqT2RA47352G 
Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id1704418764

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TIMESTAMPS:
(00:00) Intro
(00:50) AI and the Future of Employment
(03:57) The Intersection of AI, Robotics, and Biotech
(05:00) Economic Disruption
(06:40) Future of Jobs in an AI-Dominated World
(08:27) AI's Impact on Economy
(10:34) Pessimism Surrounding AI's Economic Impact
(12:17) Comparative Advantage in the AI Era
(13:50) AI Replacing Human Jobs
(19:03) Sponsor: Squad | Brave
(21:24) New Social Contract in the AI Era
(34:38) Human Wages in an AI-Dominated Economy
(39:36) Impact of AI on Job Market
(41:45) Fear of AI Taking Over Human Jobs
(47:51) Role of Government in AI Development
(50:09) Potential Risks and Benefits of AI
(53:15) Future of AI and Its Social Impact
(58:38) Fear of Totalitarian States and AI
(01:03:13) The Need for a Positive Vision for AI
(01:11:03) Wrap up
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X / TWITTER:
https://twitter.com/noahsmith (Noah)
https://twitter.com/Labenz (Nathan)
https://twitter.com/eriktorenberg (Erik)
https://twitter.com/Upstream__Pod (Upstream)
https://twitter.com/TurpentineMedia (Turpentine)
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For guest or sponsorship inquiries please contact Sam@turpentine.co

This week on Upstream, Erik is joined by David Friedman for a deep dive on anarcho-capitalism, utilitarianism, and more. To get Brave: Head to https://brave.com/brave-ads/ and mention “MoZ” when signing up for a 25% discount on your first campaign.
--
RECOMMENDED PODCAST:
Turpentine Finance  
Host Sasha Orloff (3x Founder & CEO) is joined by top founders and finance leaders at high growth tech companies who share how they navigated huge make-or-break decisions, rode inflection points, and architected success. If you want to learn the mental models and tactics top business leaders and CFOs, subscribe below. Debut episode features Casey Woo unpacking his wild ride managing billions in budgets at WeWork – arguably one of the craziest capital stories ever.

Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5BflNhFxxLjqT2RA47352G 
Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id1704418764
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Autopilot explores the adoption and rollout of AI in the industries that drive the economy and the dynamic founders bringing rapid change to slow-moving industries. From law, to hardware, to aviation, Will Summerlin interviews founders backed by Benchmark, Greylock, and more to learn how they're automating at the frontiers in entrenched industries.
Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6YQZkKHN7EP2yWedAvSxBC?si=18377c69a2804333
Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/autopilot-with-will-summerlin/id1738163836
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SPONSOR: BEEHIIV | BRAVE | SQUAD
Head to Beehiiv, the newsletter platform built for growth, to power your own. Connect with premium brands, scale your audience, and deliver a beautiful UX that stands out in an inbox.  🐝to https://Beehiiv.com and use code "UPSTREAM" for 20% off your first three months.

Get first-party targeting with Brave’s private ad platform: cookieless and future proof ad formats for all your business needs. Performance meets privacy. Head to https://brave.com/brave-ads/ and mention “MoZ” when signing up for a 25% discount on your first campaign.

💥 Access global engineering without the headache and at a fraction of the cost: head to choosesquad.com and mention “Turpentine” to skip the waitlist.
--
Timestamps:
(00:00) Intro
(00:46) The Friedman Family's Intellectual Lineage
(03:18) Market Failures and Government Intervention
(06:11) Privatizating Everything
(09:33) The Mechanics of Anarcho-Capitalism
(12:47) Why David Isn't a Utilitarianism
(16:33) Midroll: Brave | Turpentine
(18:19) David's Moral Framework
(23:36) Is Global Coordination Possible?
(30:46) Privatizing Military and National Defense
(32:54) Addressing Poverty in an Anarcho-Capitalist World
(35:40) Competitive Dictatorship
(40:54) Historical Precedents for Private Law
(42:31) The Inefficiency of Governments
(44:06) Coordination under Decentralization vs Centralization & Surveillance Capitalism
(55:07) Law & Punishment under Anarcho-Capitalism
(58:28) The Problems with Restorative Justice
(01:07:31) Addressing Common Criticisms of Market Systems
(01:14:41) Exploring the Moral Case for Economic Growth
(01:16:26) Existential Risks from Global Warming, AI, Nanotech, and Biotech
(01:18:49) The Market's Short-Term vs. Long-Term Dilemma
(01:20:13) Utilitarian Thought Experiment
(01:22:03) Income Sharing Agreements
(01:26:20) Equality of Opportunity vs. Outcome
(01:30:15) Why Do We Care about Equality?
(01:47:40) Anarcho-Capitalism and Crypto
(01:51:04) David's Legacy
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LINKS:
David's Website: http://www.daviddfriedman.com/
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X / TWITTER:
https://twitter.com/eriktorenberg (Erik)
https://twitter.com/Upstream__Pod (Upstream)
https://twitter.com/TurpentineMedia (Turpentine)
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Upstream is a production from Turpentine
Producer: Sam Kaufman
Editor: Eul Jose Lacierda
For guest or sponsorship inquiries please contact Sam@turpentine.co

In this special roundtable episode, Erik Torenberg is joined by Brad Hargreaves (the founder of Common, co-founder of General Assembly, and writer of Thesis Driven) and Noah Smith (podcast host, economist and writer of Noahpinion). They discuss the future of real estate and housing in America, the impact of regulations, and the potential of new cities.

📖 RECOMMENDED PODCAST:
Econ 102 is Noah and Erik's podcast diving into the news, business, culture and society from the lens of economics. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/econ-102-with-noah-smith-and-erik-torenberg/id1696419056

Thesis Driven is a podcast hosted by Brad Hargreaves features conversations with the leading voices at the intersection of real estate, cities, innovation, and the built world. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thesis-driven-leader-series/id1724813949

**These shows are produced by Turpentine: a network of podcasts, newsletters, and more, covering technology, business, and culture — all from the perspective of industry insiders and experts. We’re launching new shows every week, and we’re looking for industry-leading sponsors — if you think that might be you and your company, email us at erik@turpentine.co.

_
SPONSOR: BEEHIIV | BRAVE | SQUAD
Head to Beehiiv, the newsletter platform built for growth, to power your own. Connect with premium brands, scale your audience, and deliver a beautiful UX that stands out in an inbox.  🐝to https://Beehiiv.com and use code "UPSTREAM" for 20% off your first three months.

Get first-party targeting with Brave’s private ad platform: cookieless and future proof ad formats for all your business needs. Performance meets privacy. Head to https://brave.com/brave-ads/ and mention “MoZ” when signing up for a 25% discount on your first campaign.

💥 Access global engineering without the headache and at a fraction of the cost: head to choosesquad.com and mention “Turpentine” to skip the waitlist.
–
Links:
Noahpinion’s https://www.noahpinion.blog
Thesis Driven https://www.thesisdriven.com/
–
X / TWITTER:
@bhargreaves (Brad)
@eriktorenberg (Erik)
@noahpinion (Noah)
@TurpentineMedia (Turpentine)

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TIMESTAMPS
(00:00) Intro
(00:28) Understanding Real Estate Economics
(01:34) Role of Technology in Real Estate
(02:22) 2008 Financial Crisis and Real Estate
(06:31) Role of Banks in Real Estate
(10:14) Future of Real Estate and Housing
(16:01) Sponsor: Brave | Turpentine
(17:44) Impact of Regulations
(24:51) Real Estate Architecture’s Evolution
(29:48) Role of Developers in Real Estate
(40:21) Challenges of Building State Capacity
(51:53) Potential of New Cities
(01:00:33) Success of New Urbanist Towns
(01:01:53) Wrap