Mountain & Prairie with Ed Roberson Ed Roberson

This is a special episode recorded live in Bozeman at the premiere of the important new short film titled "Good Fire, Bad Fire: Inside the Race to Restore America’s Forests."
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On the evening of May 16, 2024, around 200 folks gathered at Bozeman’s Museum of the Rockies to watch the 15-minute film, which captures the breathtaking beauty of our nation’s forests and delves into the urgent crisis threatening their existence. Following the screening, I moderated a panel discussion featuring an extremely impressive line-up of some of the nation’s leading conservationists and forest-health experts. The on-stage conversation gave us the opportunity to dig deeper into some of the issues raised by the film, and glean valuable insights into the importance of responsible forest management from ecological, recreational, economic, and policy perspectives.
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“Good Fire, Bad Fire” was directed by filmmaker Eric Ian, and produced by the team at the Property and Environment Research Center, better known as PERC, who also hosted the event.  The panelists you’ll hear in this episode are:
 
Brian Ferebee, Chief Executive of Intergovernmental Relations for the U.S. Forest Service
Randy Newberg, renowned conservationist and Host of Fresh Tracks and Hunt Talk with Randy Newberg
Morgan Varner, Director of Fire Research at Tall Timbers
Corey Lewellen, District Ranger for the Bozeman Ranger District
Hannah Downey, Policy Director at PERC
Brian Yablonski, CEO of PERC (and a past Mountain & Prairie podcast guest)
 
I could’ve spoken with each of these experts individually for several hours, but having them all share a stage and combine their wide range of expertise into a single conversation was a powerfully educational experience.
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While you can listen to this episode on its own, I would strongly encourage you to first spend 15 minutes watching “Good Fire, Bad Fire” as a primer.  There’s a link in the episode notes and it’s embedded on the episode webpage.
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I’d also encourage you to check out the episode notes for a full list of all of the topics we discussed, which included everything from a history of fire as a resource management tool to the Forest Service’s evolving approach to wildfires and forest health. We talked about forest health’s impact on hunting and fishing, the pros and cons of policies such as the ESA and NEPA, on-the-ground success stories, optimistic good news about the future of forest health, and much more. There were tons of resources mentioned, all of which are listed and linked on this episode’s webpage.
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A huge thanks to Brian Yablonski and the team at PERC for creating such an important film and for inviting me to participate in such an enlightening conversation. I hope you enjoy the film as much as I did, and I hope that this discussion provides some new insights into the all-important issue of forest health in the American West.
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WATCH THE FILM: "Good Fire, Bad Fire" Full episode notes and links: https://mountainandprairie.com/good-fire-bad-fire/ ---
TOPICS DISCUSSED:
3:15 - Introductions 
6:15 - Where the USFS stands right now on its approach to wildfire and forest health (Brian F)
8:45 - A hunter and public lands advocate’s perspective on the state of the forests (Randy)
10:30 - A brief history of how fire became a resource management tool in the US and before the US (Morgan)
13:45 - Discussing obstacles to the forest management work described in Good Fire, Bad Fire (Corey)
18:00 - How we can streamline large federal processes like the ESA and NEPA (Hannah)
21:00 - Why PERC became involved in this forestry work (Brian Y)
23:15 - What is preventing ideal progress on forest management in Montana (Brian F)
27:30 - How Randy would recommend hunters and anglers take action and advocate for forest health
31:00 - Discussing how lessons in forest management from the Southeast can

This is a special Shed Session episode, normally published exclusively for Mountain & Prairie Patreon supporters. In it, I answer the most common question I receive, which is some variation of "How do I start a podcast?"
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In this episode I answer that question in excruciating detail, laying out everything I know about it, based on my own bumbling, meandering, eight-year journey through Podcastlandia.
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I hope this episode will provide a little bit of actionable guidance that will allow you to put your own unique ideas into the world.
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To listen to all past, present, and future Patreon-exclusive episodes, you can sign up at www.mountainandprairie.com/patreon. Memberships start at as little as $2 per month.
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Back to the regular episodes next week!!
 
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TOPICS DISCUSSED:
[2:15] - Intro
[6:55] - Disclaimers
[10:00] - How and why I started Mountain & Prairie
[22:13] - Intentions
[28:12] - Getting started + endurance
[39:25] - Finding your voice, authenticity, enthusiasm
[52:55] - Finding an audience
[1:03:09] - Interview techniques
[1:08:48] - Finding guests
[1:11:40] - Dealing with negative feedback
[1:15:14] - Equipment and editing
[1:21:38] - Money (least important!)
[1:25:54] - Further reading
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RESOURCES:
All Patreon-Exclusive Podcast Episodes Ed's 2024 Freeflow Course on the Rogue River Seth Godin Books: Purple Cow, Tribes, This is Marketing, The Practice Steven Pressfield Books: The War of Art, Nobody Wants to Read Your Sh!t Originals by Adam Grant 1000 True Fans by Kevin Kelly Conan interviewing Jack White Spreadsheet with all my podcast equipment

Dan Stellar is the State Director for the Arizona Chapter of The Nature Conservancy, where he leads the organization’s efforts across a wide range of cutting-edge initiatives, including forest health, water conservation, resilient cities, healthy grasslands, and more. Arizona is one of the nation’s largest and most biodiverse states, which creates a host of extremely unique conservation challenges and opportunities– both in its arid, wide-open landscapes and densely populated urban centers. As you’ll hear, Dan and his team are implementing conservation solutions that not only benefit people and nature specifically in Arizona, but they are also creating actionable conservation frameworks that can be applied all over the American West.
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Dan was born and raised on the East Coast, and he has spent his career in the non-profit sector, applying his talents to important issues both domestically and abroad.  He began his tenure at TNC Arizona in 2016, when he assumed the role of Deputy State Director. He quickly fell in love with Arizona and TNC’s critical work in the state, and, in 2020, he assumed the role of State Director. Dan is also a committed endurance athlete, and he’s run a mind-blowing number of marathons and half-marathons. And on top of all of that, he’s a dedicated father, husband, and family man.
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Dan and I share so many common interests in conservation, endurance sports, and family, so I was super excited to have the opportunity to learn more about the specifics of his work and his fascinating personal and professional journey. We started the conversation with an overview of what makes Arizona such a unique place from a conservation perspective, then we dug into the details of TNC’s work in forest heath, rivers, aquifers, outdoor recreation, and resilient cities. We talked about some of the lessons he learned from traveling and working internationally, why he chooses to push himself so hard athletically, and how he goes about building such strong relationships with stakeholders, partner organizations, and his TNC team members. Dan is also a voracious reader, so we obviously chatted about books, and he wrapped up the conversation with very wise parting words.
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I really felt like I’d met a real kindred spirit in Dan, and I greatly appreciate everything that he and his team are doing to make Arizona– and the West– a better place. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did.
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Dan Stellar TNC Arizona's 2023 Annual Report Spring 2024 Field Notes Magazine Full episode notes and links: https://mountainandprairie.com/dan-stellar/ ---
This episode is brought to you in partnership with the Colorado chapter of The Nature Conservancy and TNC chapters throughout the Western United States. Guided by science and grounded by decades of collaborative partnerships, The Nature Conservancy has a long-standing legacy of achieving lasting results to create a world where nature and people thrive.

On the last Tuesday of every month throughout 2024, Mountain & Prairie will be delving into conversations with a wide range of The Nature Conservancy’s leaders, partners, collaborators, and stakeholders, highlighting the myriad of conservation challenges, opportunities, and solutions here in the American West and beyond.

To learn more about The Nature Conservancy’s impactful work in the West and around the world, visit www.nature.org
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TOPICS DISCUSSED:
3:30 - Setting the scene for conservation work in Arizona
8:45 - Forest health work in Arizona
15:00 - Aligning profit motives with forest health goals
22:00 - Whether or not there are down-sides to forest thinning
25:15 - Discussing the Verde River
31:15 - Discussing the Big Chino Aquifer 
35:00 - Collaborating with the Trust for Public Land to build a new park in Arizona
39:45 - TNC’s work with cities in Arizona
46:00 - Dan’s passion for running, and his attraction to doing hard

Sandy Colhoun is the President of the National Outdoor Leadership School, also known as NOLS.
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Founded in 1965 by legendary mountaineer Paul Petzolt, NOLS is widely considered to be the world’s premier wilderness school, and its mission is “to be the leading source and teacher of wilderness skills and leadership that serve people and the environment.” NOLS operates in many of the world’s wildest outdoor classrooms, and it provides the highest quality instruction in many outdoor skills, including wilderness travel, mountaineering, rock climbing, sea kayaking, and more. But perhaps most importantly, through these outdoor adventures, NOLS students learn the foundational and all-important life skills of leadership, teamwork, humility, and responsibility.
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Sandy was named the seventh President of NOLS in October of 2023, after serving as the interim President and, before that, as a member of the NOLS Board of Trustees. Prior to his work with NOLS, he had spent much of his career in the worlds of education and journalism, most notably leading a $750 million fundraising campaign at Colby College in Maine. Sandy is also a proud graduate of a NOLS Wind River Mountaineering course, and he’s no stranger to hardcore outdoor adventures– he worked as a ski patroller in Park City, climbed in Alaska, Nepal, and Bolivia, and cycled up and over the Himalayas from Tibet to Nepal. As you’ll hear in our conversation, he’s focused, driven, and lots of fun, and he’s s fully committed to leading NOLS into the future.
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I’m a proud graduate of a 1999 semester-long NOLS course, which was hands-down one of the most formative and valuable experiences of my entire life. Yes, I learned plenty of outdoor skills that have served me well for nearly 25 years now, but the most important lessons were those that taught me the value of good exhibition behavior, being comfortable in uncomfortable situations, and keeping a positive attitude when life gets difficult. If not for that semester, I highly doubt I would’ve ever moved out west, worked in conservation, or started this podcast. So, I’m obviously a superfan of all things NOLS.
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I was so excited to chat with Sandy, and we covered a lot in our hour-long conversation. We discussed the history of NOLS, what separates NOLS from other wilderness schools, risk management, exhibition behavior, expanding one’s comfort zone, a description of the ideal NOLS student, Sandy’s own leadership style, his vision for the future of NOLS, how he will measure success, leaders that Sandy admires, favorite books, and much more. Be sure to check out the episode notes for links to everything we discuss.
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A huge thank you to Sandy for being so generous with his time and for everything he and the entire team at NOLS do to make the world a better place. Thanks for listening, and I hope you enjoy!
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NOLS Sandy Calhoun Ed's Freeflow Institute Workshop Full episode notes and links: https://mountainandprairie.com/sandy-colhoun/ ---
TOPICS DISCUSSED:
4:00 - A brief history of NOLS
8:15 - What sets NOLS apart from other outdoor schools
10:30 - Discussing NOLS’ partnerships
13:00 - How NOLS manages risk
16:30 - The talent of NOLS instructors
19:00 - What “expedition behavior” is
22:15 - How NOLS recruits students in a world that prioritizes job opportunities and career advancement
24:45 - How NOLS expands one’s comfort zone
28:45 - The ideal NOLS student
30:15 - Determining the next chapter of NOLS in the early 2020s
33:30 - Sandy’s career pre-NOLS
37:00 - Sandy’s leadership style
42:30 - How Sandy got his mind around the task of taking the helm at NOLS
46:00 - Measuring future success at NOLS
49:00 - Leaders that Sandy admires
52:15 - Sandy’s book recommendations
58:15 - Sandy’s parting words of wisdom, and how you can support NOLS
 
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ABOUT MOUNTAIN & PRAIRIE:
Mountain & Prairie - All

Kami Bakken is a river guide and outdoor advocate, and she currently serves as the Director of the Freeflow Foundation and Director of Ambassador and Grant Programs for Rivers for Change. A native of Minnesota, Kami headed West for college at Colorado State University, where she earned a degree in Human Dimensions of Natural Resources. Since graduating in 2018, she has been fully focused on helping others explore and appreciate the mountains and rivers of the American West, while also advocating for their protection and conservation.
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Kami and I met in 2023 when she was the facilitator on my Green River Freeflow Institute workshop through Dinosaur National Monument and the Gates of Lodore. During our weeks of preparation for the course and our five days on the river, I was so impressed by her expertise in outdoor education and river travel, and perhaps more importantly, by her ability to connect with a wide range of people in a sometimes-intense wilderness setting. She’s humble yet confident, earnest yet hilarious, and I credit her with so much of the success of that workshop.
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When I was in my late 20s and deep in a traditional career in the real estate business, I dreamed of having a life and career like Kami’s– one that combined adventure and wide-open spaces with purpose-driven work. So I wanted to chat with her in depth to learn more about how she has made it all happen. If, like I was, you are interested in learning the realities of following a non-traditional but deeply fulfilling career in the outdoors, then you’ll definitely learn a lot from Kami.
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We met up a few weeks ago at my house in the Springs and had a wide-ranging and funny conversation about her life, career, adventures, and crazy misadventures. We talked about what drew her to Colorado for college, and some of the challenges of adjusting to such a new place and environment where she didn’t know anyone. We discussed some of her wild experiences traveling in the West and internationally– including a few run-ins with cult-like groups– and how she took the leap to become a sea kayaking guide and eventually a western river guide. We talk a lot about her commitment to pushing outside of her comfort zone, overcoming fear and discomfort, and why she’s drawn to conservation work. We also discuss the financial realities of seasonal work, how her non-profit work compliments her guiding work, her career plans for the future, and her roles with the Freeflow Institute and Foundation.
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And it’s worth noting that Kami and I will be heading out on the river again this summer for another Freeflow workshop, this time on Oregon’s Wild & Scenic Rogue River– August 15th through 20th. As of this recording, there are still a few spots left, so you can follow the link in the episode notes to learn more about the workshop and apply. As of this moment, you can use the secret code “ED200” to get $200 off of the tuition.
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A huge thanks to Kami for agreeing to let me ask her a bunch of weird questions, and more importantly, for all of her leadership and support on our river trips. Enjoy!
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Kami on Instagram and LinkedIn Freeflow Institute Freeflow Foundation Upcoming 2024 Freeflow Program on the Rogue River Full episode notes and links: https://mountainandprairie.com/kami-bakken/
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TOPICS DISCUSSED
4:00 - Where Kami is from
5:00 - Why Kami went to Colorado State, and how her family felt about that decision
9:00 - How her early experience in Colorado led her to WWOOF (and apparently a couple of cults)
15:30 - Kami’s return to CSU, and her entry into the world of outdoor recreation
19:30 - Kami’s travel adventures post-graduation
22:00 - Kami’s time with Protect Our Winters
24:15 - Kami’s transition to professional guiding
27:45 - Where Kami’s desire for connection and impact led her career next
31:45 - What Kami’s friends from college were doing while she was ra

Hampton Sides is a Santa Fe-based historian and bestselling author who has written many books that are favorites of Mountain & Prairie listeners, including "Blood and Thunder," "On Desperate Ground," and "Ghost Soldiers." His newest book is "The Wide Wide Sea: Imperial Ambition, First Contact and the Fateful Final Voyage of Captain James Cook," which is available now and sitting high on the New York Times bestseller list. If you’re a longtime Mountain & Prairie listener, then I’m sure you’re glad to see that Hampton has joined me for yet another podcast conversation.
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Much of Captain Cook’s epic third voyage takes place far from the mountains and prairies of the American West, in tropical paradises including Tahiti and Hawaii. But what you may not realize, is that a big portion of his final voyage was spent exploring and mapping the west coast of North America, from the rocky shores of present-day Oregon and Washington, all the way up to Alaska. While I was somewhat familiar with Cook and his explorations, I didn’t fully understand or appreciate the mind-blowing scale of his journeys or his impact on world history.
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As is the case with all of Hampton’s books, he melds together deep and extensive research with thrilling storytelling to make the process of understanding history as entertaining as it is educational. While Cook is obviously a central figure in "The Wide Wide Sea," the book also profiles numerous fascinating Polynesian and Indigenous historical figures, including the Tahitian man named Mai, whom Hampton and I discussed at length in our September 2021 episode. If you haven’t already listened to that episode, I’d encourage you to do so when you’re done with this one– there’s a link in the episode notes.
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Hampton and I met up here in Colorado Springs, one of many stops on his book tour for The Wide Wide Sea. As usual, we had a fun and at times very funny conversation about history, his research and writing process, and all things Captain Cook. We started out discussing why Hampton is drawn to write about controversial historical figures, and we talked at length about how he combined historical accounts from Europeans with those from the Indigenous communities that Cook visited. We talked about the mystery of Cook’s dramatic personality change, how Cook’s arrival disrupted the equilibrium of Polynesian cultures, Cook’s leadership style both before and after his personality change, how Hampton organized such massive amounts of research, and how and why he works so hard to get his books into the world. He also gives a sneak peek into his next book, which will based here in Colorado and explores one of the West’s most notorious massacres.
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A huge thank you to Hampton for taking time out of his busy schedule to chat with me again, and thank you for listening. Enjoy!
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Hampton Sides The Wide Wide Sea by Hampton Sides
Hampton’s M&P episode discussing Mai
BOZEMAN FILM EVENT: Good Fire, Bad Fire ---
TOPICS DISCUSSED:
4:30 - Discussing Hampton’s recent time on the road, and why Hampton values in-person readings
7:00 - Why write about Captain Cook
10:45 - Captain Cook, pre-1776
16:45 - Cook’s ship
21:15 - Exploring Cook’s mental health
25:30 - Exploring humans’ predisposition towards greed
29:30 - The importance of doing boots-on-the-ground research for history
32:00 - How Cook kept scurvy at bay
34:30 - Hampton’s biggest unexpected discovery while writing The Wide Wide Sea
38:00 - Whether or not Hampton experienced apprehensions about telling the story of a complicated person like Cook
42:00 - Discussing the circumstances that led to Cook’s death
45:45 - Discussing some of Cook’s personality traits and cultural differences between Cook and the Māori 
49:30 - How Hampton organizes his quotes for writing
53:45 - How Hampton actually sells his books
58:00 - Hampton’s plans for the