Imperfect Mens Club Mark Aylward & Jim Gurule

Mark introduces the topic of thought leadership and connects it directly with critical thinking
He reads the Wikipedia definition and then connects it to the profession area in our flywheel
Mark says anyone who self identifies as such is not a thought leader. The market needs to determine that
Jim jumps in and brings up Jordan Peterson. He then connects back to our flywheel and the other 4 areas of life
Jim then brings up AI and the timeliness of our topic
He differentiates between “Big” and “Small” AI. He suggests people will be increasingly creating small customized AI’s for different use cases
Mark expresses some doubts about AI because on the back end is a human with bias
Mark brings Jordan Peterson back up
Jim brings up Joe Rogan and the View
Mark says he thinks to be a thought leader you have to also be a critical thinker. He wonders if people are being thoughtful and unbiased in their responses or are they simply emoting?
Mark brings up Bill Maher
Jim supports that Jordan Peterson is credentialed and experience in various sciences and topics. He separates the View as a business…entertainment
Mark gos a bit deeper into Peterson varied area of expertise
Jim recalls his live experience with Jordan and how diverse the audience was
Mark brings up JP’s son and daughter
He thinks JP was never intending to be rich or famous and he struggled with fame for a time
Jim brings up Joe Biden and Mark shares his opinion:). Neither has much respect for Joe
Mark suggests that perhaps all thought leaders are polarizing at some level. He goes on to add to what makes a real thought leader and Jim agrees
Mark mentions Martin Luther King and Ghandi
Jim asks Mark for examples oh thought leaders who grew fast and then bottomed out and disappeared. Mark shares a couple of examples but can’t remember names
Then Jim mentions Tony Robbins and Mark shares his opinion that he thinks TR is authentic but only for a certain audience (very troubled people)
The guys explore the cult like nature of TR’s tribe and then suggest there is perhaps cult like vibes to all thought leader followers.  His rugby teams, for instance
The guys joke about “self proclaimed” thought leaders versus authentic thought leaders
Jim suggests that they all are narcissistic to some degree
Mark brings up Jim’s evolution from shy and reticent to engage to feeling lost obligated to share. Jim appreciates and expands. We have an obligation to share what we know that can help
They talk about the risk of sharing and exposing yourself to criticism
Jim reflects on his sales career and feels that everything is about persuasion
The evolution is largely based on the accumulation of expertise over time and confidence
Jim warns of the abuse of the power of persuasion
Mark chimes in with the abuses of power
He goes on to agree and then brings up celebrities and Robert Dinero…
Mark says real friends call bullshit on ego players like Dinero
Jim says it’s not what you say as much as what you do. Great leaders model. Like fathers
Jim tells his story about his Japanese assistant and Japanese leadership culture which promotes leadership by action and modeling
Mark brings JP back into the discussion and talks about how he walks his talk
Thought leaders do what they say
Jim tells a story about his friend who adds that people will see how people react to you…something you’ll never see. Mark recalls that good friends do that too…tell you how people react to you
Mark says if you have the ability to help others you are obligated to do so
Jim adds being careful about offering unsolicited advice and he says he’s pulled back
Mark talks about learning how to not conclude, but to observe…discernment
Jim shares his experience last night at a conference where he saw people who were so busy and overwhelmed that they can’t focus on the moment and/or are hypersensitive and teed up
Mark brings up his inner work with SOS and spiritual

Mark introduces episode 52 to finish off season 2!
A milestone for the guys. Trying to get the message out to more people
Today’s topic is critical thinking.   Mark says we’re lacking in critical thinking as a result of a lack of self awareness
Mark reads the definition from Wikipedia. He likes the one term “unbiased”
Jim jumps in with our flywheel and the 5 areas of life on it
Jim brings up Trump’s convictions
Jim says there aren’t many real critical thinkers and we don’t teach that skill. He suggests that being dyslexic makes him think critical
Mark gives his dad credit for telling him to question everything and Jim calls it a gift
The guys both believe you can respect processes and rules and laws and still question everything
Mark brings up science and climate change - nothing has been decided. Science is discovery
Jim says critical thinking makes us better as people - Our goal for IMC - help people get better
Jim shares his infographic about the factors that go into critical thinking
 
Research
Listening
Explanation
Flexibility
Fairness
Objectivity
Evaluation
Analysis
 
Mark identifies the major differences between critical and non critical thinking. He says listening is perhaps the most important of them all
Jim looks for win/win outcomes. What does success look like?
Marks cites the meaning of words and how we bastardize the language and words
Mark says biases are normal but we can put them aside and remain open to learning something new
Jim likes to approach new conversations with “what can I learn?”
Mark says it virtually impossible to know everything about any topic, so flexibility is important
Both guys are a bit mixed on the word “fairness”. What does it mean and who determines what’s fair. Mark says fairness is the journey but not the destination
Jim expresses his distaste for DEI. Mark agrees and thinks it’s going away
Both guys talk about sports in regard to DEI.  Jim tells a story about a big conference he attended last week. He loved the conference but didn’t like all the groups people were divided into. Why do we have to separate people into groups?  It’s the opposite of inclusive. The worst of elitism.
Mark brings up victimhood. You can’t think critically if you play victim
Mark brings up Pride month and how stupid it is
Jim brings up “the first” and how it should be the best…the first is unnecessary
Mark claims that critical thinking starts all the other dominoes falling. It fixes everything over time
Jim asks if Mark believes people are “Objective”?  He says no, but can continuously move back to objectivity. It’s a journey
Jim quotes - To get what you want, give people what they want. You don’t need to get what you want by taking from someone
Mark tells and Dennis Prager tale about marriage and arguments. He says bringing generosity to conversations is effective
Sports come up again and both guys share reflections on winning and losing and how you look at things. How you respond to them. Jim talks rugby
Mark bundles analysis, research and evaluation together. Jim separates them out
Mark says it’s fine to have an opinion…as long as you claim it as such…not a fact…how I feel
Jim says “throw some math at it”
Jim brings up the data/math on black men being killed by white police officers. There is no math to support it. We often decide how we feel and see out numbers to support our opinions
Mark says we need more context and less speculation. He also brings up climate change and “river to the sea”. Do your homework
Jim. mentions the suicide rate of men and the isolation of young men. It’s our mission to help men talk about these difficult things
Mark challenges the audience to a debate
Jim cites the value of facts, data and math. He cites neurodiversity rates in incarcerated men
Mark says there are too many facts used that aren’t actually facts
Mark says the media values being first over bei

Mark opens his intro with the guys topic of choice for today- Resistance
Jim’s traveling and is in Mexico City.  He had some typical travel resistance issues and both guys ran with that and piled on
One caveat is Jim’s sound quality is diminished, but he can be heard just fine
Mark brings up the flywheel and the book Jim brought up, Steven Pressfield’s “The War Of Art”
Mark says he thinks resistance is mostly good with exception of dangerous things and that mitigating risk is a goo idea before just jumping up and pushing back on any and all resistance
Marks bring in his “pause” approach to regain objectivity and context before jumping in
Jim jumps in and refers back to the book and expands on it’s message - “The enemy of creativity is resistance”. Jim says that in his mind resistance is a sign of progress, but it’s hard to know when its progress or danger.
Jim then shares his travel story - Mexico City and the resistance from the line at the airpot to the hotel and then the Uber experience…3 different drivers and the wrong addresses. He asked himself if maybe these were signs that he should consider doing something else.  He made the best of it
Mark then tells his Fringe Festival stand-up experience. It wasn’t his vibe but he wanted to support his girlfriend. He shares that relationships bump up against resistance. Compromise and the “20 minute rule”
Jim asks Mark to talk more about “risk” and Mark shares his experience starting his own company.  He puts this in context. He brings up his “pause” technique and put’s in some additional context
Jim shares his opinion on pivoting in the face of resistance. Mark agrees and expands
Jim says timing is a big deal in life and how to tell if its the right time or not. Mark agrees
Jim speaks about decisions versus choices. What’s the difference?
Mark shares his interaction with his son about his meditation. About how he chose to react versus how he might have 10 years ago
Jim replays with his hotel noise experience and reaction. Don’t let it get into your head. And once again its about how you respond.  Jim turned it into a nice lunch and a few beers
Mark goes back to his stand-up experience from the day before and how he was able to turn it around with the help of his girlfriend and a 7 minute conversation - a new perspective
Both guys agree that resistance is everywhere, all the time and they talk a bit about the different types
Mark brings up the 5 key areas of life and the flywheel.  Resistance is in all 5 areas
Jim say traveling is an exercise in handling your response to resistance
The guys reflect on The US versus other countries. They differ a bit about this and that’s a bit interesting
Jim says it’s often challenging to find people to help with communication and how h appreciates people who can speak English as a second language
This leads to our current division and how that’s created different languages within our own language
Mark shares how appreciative people are of trying to the speak the native language of the country you’re in
Then he moves into his public speaking
They wrap it up. Jim’s going to Chicago before returning home

Mark introduces the topic of manifestation and the power of the subconscious mind.  Then he brings up the wheel and attaches manifestation to health - mental health
Jim had introduced Dr James Doty having heard him on Lewis Howe’s podcast Mark reads from the show notes to give context to what the guys are about to discuss. Mark mentions the work he’s been doing and throws it to Jim
Jim mentions that he’s been reading and studying about manifestation for years. He talks about adversity and how it’s how you react to it that matters
Jim brings up the wheel and self awareness and lays out the 5 areas of life on our wheel
He references our past and then shares Dr Doty’s past traumas and how he overcame them. Doty mentions a billionaire he met who wasn’t happy in spite of his wealth. Your success doesn’t necessarily make you happy
Mark brings up what the podcast is all about. A forum for men to talk about things they don’t normally talk about
Mark says there’s an interesting balance between fortitude and sharing emotions
He discusses his current program and the picture of him as a 5 year old - see that kid. You are still that kid
Mark then goes into the past and Jim runs with it. We need to figure out how to process the trauma from our past in order to move on
Jim brings up our vibrational influence on the world and others
Mark tells his yoga/vibrational bowls - energy reading
Jim gives context to the vibrations we can put out. That can be good or bad
Jim says happiness should not be the goal. It should be fulfillment. The distinction between happiness, pleasure, joy, service, etc…
Mark says we misuse words like happy and crazy - what do they really mean
Jim shares another point Dr Doty spoke of. We can live in the past, present or future
The present is the goal
Jim shares his dyslexia story and how it shaped his aggressive behavior. He became self aware and has worked on it successfully
Mark shares his visualization practice and some successes that have come from it. Jim compliments Mark and gives him credit for his work and consistency
Jim goes deeper into how he uses manifestation as an inventor
He tells his patent story in the context of vibrations
Mark brings back up Jim’s past, present and future comment and gets into detail about how important processing trauma is - his anger at his ex-wife and his parents “scarcity” vibe as Depression kids
Mark mentions our sage and saboteur  The sage would see the great things that came from his divorce. He the talks about worrying about what might happen in the future and how 90% of the things he worried about never happen
Jim brings up his bitter or better concept. He sees a lot of people in pain, projecting that pain in to the world   The victim mentality and the negative vibrations that creates
Jim thinks we can help shift that pain to positivity.  Marl appreciates his ability to shift people in a better direction
Both guys agree that sometimes you hold people accountable to their negativity and sometimes you don’t. You gotta pick your spots
Jim brings up politics and suggests that talking about it without using names. Not personalizing political discussion. Positive progress can be made. Self awareness comes into play again and questions are great tools to keep discussions civil
Questions are disarming and make people think. Add positive energy and it’s magical
Great leaders create hope for the future vibrationally
Jim asks Mark to remember what moments he was able to vibrate out positivity and change the outcome of a situation
Mark brings up some sports memories and Jim jumps in
Mark shares his Sept 11 work story - how he dismissed his staff for the day and shifted the emotion in the room
Jim shares a story about his friends loss and then his rugby national championship story. He played against doctors orders and raised the energy of his whole team leading to a victory
Mark remembers a Larry Bird and Willis Reed stor

Mark begins with self awareness and the flywheel of life - How we respond to things now versus when we were younger
Jim shares his thoughts on the wheel and self awareness. “We grow bitter or we grow better”
He say we work hard not to grow into the bitter old man
Jim shares his “only in San Francisco” story. Parking meters and silly parking laws. “Only in San Francisco”
Mark comments after laughing about how upside down San Francisco is right now
Jim laughs at how he responded to the crazy - over emotional
Mark gets into the laughter and jokes about San Fran being bizarro world
Mark shares his Honda driving story and how competitive he used to be
Both guys agree that conflict is more dangerous now
Mark - “I used to lose m y shit in my car”
Mark shares his car conflict - “Merry Christmas”
Mark talks about pausing and  readdressing how he responds to other drivers now
Jim reflects again on his parking ticket story
They both laugh again at “only in San Francisco”
Mark says “all this shit’s a choice”. You either make your choices or you give your choices away…and that is also a choice
Self awareness makes you happier. You don’t have control over much
Jim says being self aware allows you to calm things down. It’s a sign of good leadership
Both guys think we are moving away from woke and back toward free speech
Mark quotes Scott Galloway’s Ted talk and “Do you love Your Kids”
Jim says our future leaders need to change the narrative - Stop scaring and misleading the kids
M ark says Biden is compromised across the board
Jim says more people are liking Trump because he speaks from his heart - not scripted
Mark says the election is going to be interesting
He says we are getting distracted from root causes and distracted with propaganda
Mark says the Dems are propping up abortion because it works. And there are maybe 10 topics more important than that. Safety, economy, border, etc…
Mark uses “the river to the sea” example. What river?  What sea?
Jim had a young man change his perspective about the protests today. The young people today don’t know what they are protesting and many of the protesters are paid agitators
Our young people have been scared, misled and screwed by Covid. There anger and frustration is almost justified. They got a shit sandwich
Mark says it’s still just “other things” and they’re still just choices
Jim brings up the frat boys who raised the flag and then a go-fund me to the tune of half a mil
Mark brings up pausing in response to negative emotions
Jim shares his dinner story with some Disney related folks and how Disney is aggressively moving away from woke. The biggest box offices are pro America movies
Mark says we will continue to hear things that don’t make sense while Biden is still in office
Mark talks about the value of focus, objectivity and respect in having challenging conversations
You have to hold people accountable to what they say and do
Jim says capitalism fixes things. The market dictates what people will do eventually
Then he brings up Bud Light, Target and Planet Fitness as examples of wokeness backfiring
Mark says life is a meritocracy. Sports is life and it’s great for kids. Work ethic, consistency, respect…These messages work everywhere
Jim mentions the San Francisco government school entity that is going bankrupt. Enrollment dropped
Different testing for different races…it’s a comedy show
Florida and California are different planets. Jim says where he lives might as well be Texas or Florida
Mark says that why many laws belong down at the local level
Mark ends with self awareness, choices, how you respond to thing - you are regaining control over your happiness
Jim says if you ever go to San Fran…remember to turn your wheels

Mark introduces the topic in the context of self awareness, which then leads to self evaluation of, in this case, communication skills
He talks about generational differences, social media and a “laziness” that he sees creeping into our communication
Jim agrees and goes deeper into the generational distinction. He believes that younger people are too sensitive to words. Almost like they set booby traps for us. He feels that we are also confusing people by mixing up words and phrases. It’s ours to help them reframe positions
Jim brings up the Palestinian/Israeli conflict and the UNC “frat boys” who refuse to let the American Flag be lowered
Mark shares his feedback on “the river to the sea” and how misguided some of these young people are
Mark shares how similar he and his girlfriend are simply because they were born during the same year. He goes on to talk about the word “Oriental” and his experience with this “slur” in his yoga class
Words are getting bastardized. Jim calls hem the “thought police”
Mark brings up Jordan Peterson. How well he listens and how effective he is with his pause before responding. He also holds people accountable to his words, not their interpretation of his words
Jim brings up the difference between being nice and being kind
Jim says there are a lot of complainers out there now.  Nobody likes a complainer…they tolerate them. No one will stick around complainers long term. They tolerate and move away. Complainers want to complain without consideration of a resolution
Mark brings up the strategy of using questions to disarm. I don’t know, I’m pretty sure, I feel, I think, I know…these are very different phrases… that mean very different things
Jim likes smart people, regardless of group affiliation.  Mark adds the importance of kindness as well
Mark says try to not focus on winning or being right. Also too many people are too easily offended
Mark talks about the power and danger of groups
Jim shares a couple of stories. One about privilege. What is it and why is it important or not so much?
The second about protesting in the 60’s versus today. That today’s protesters don’t seem to know much about why they’re protesting or what they’re protesting. Jim says young people are mad because they got shit on (Covid, etc…)
Mark says we allow too much complaining.  It’s about how you respond, to what happens to you
Jim brings the flywheel back in
Mark talks about leading conversations with questions and don’t try to change minds or be “right”
Jim’s quotes “To get what you want, give people what they want”
Begin with what success looks like
Fear drives much of our behavior…Try to find out what those fears are
Be respectful
Past present and future are all factors
Be transparent and work hard to create clarity