Survival of the Friendliest: Lady Carnarvon talks to Rutger Bregman about the "real" Lord of the Flies and the power of kindness

I welcome Dutch historian Rutger Bregman to the podcast after first messaging him on Instagram and we talk about what I took from his book Humankind and my own wish to bring people together to remember friendship and kindness. 

Rutger reflects on Dutch directness and equality shaped by living with water, from the 1953 flood to the Delta Works, and shares why he writes for a general audience about big questions of human nature. 

We discuss his challenge to the “veneer theory” and his belief in “survival of the friendlies,” alongside a real shipwreck story near Tonga where six boys survived 15 months through cooperation. Our conversation turns to bullying, family and attachment, the Second World War and Rutger’s research for Moral Ambition on how resistance spreads simply by asking others to help.

01:10 Dutch Culture and Directness

04:01 Water Engineering and Delta Works

05:41 Early Civilizations and Conflict

06:58 Why Bregman Writes Big History

08:12 Debunking Human Nature Myths

10:07 Cooperation at Highclere Today

12:49 Tempest and Amoral People

13:55 Real Lord of the Flies Story

19:00 Bullying Attachment and Family

21:41 Victorian Fathers Revisited

22:40 Reform Politics And Women

23:28 Why Study War

24:04 Resistance Myth Debunked

25:24 Heroes Are Asked

27:29 Unconventional Organizers

30:25 Kindness After Loss

32:19 Kindness Is Contagious

35:03 Lessons From Animals

36:18 Veneer Theory And Dickens

37:59 British Indirectness

You can hear more episodes of Lady Carnarvon's Official Podcasts at https://www.ladycarnarvon.com/podcast/

New episodes are published on the first day of every month.