Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career Lenny Rachitsky

Ebi Atawodi is Director of Product Management for the Creator Experience at YouTube, former Head of Product at Uber, and a former Director of Product (Payments and EMEA) at Netflix. Known for crafting a strong, unified vision, Ebi empowers her teams to achieve outsized outcomes. In today’s episode, we go deep into vision and strategy, including:
• The four key elements of a good vision statement
• Three ways to determine your mission
• The four pillars of great product management
• How writing helps you gain clarity
• How culture influences product
• Tips on how to structure a strategy session
• Advice on building team culture and improving work relationships
• What’s coming soon at YouTube
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Brought to you by Sidebar—Accelerate your career by surrounding yourself with extraordinary peers | Jira Product Discovery—Atlassian’s new prioritization and roadmapping tool built for product teams | Wix Studio—The web creation platform built for agencies
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Find the transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/crafting-a-compelling-product-vision-ebi-atawodi-youtube-netflix-uber/
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Where to find Ebi Atawodi:
• X: https://twitter.com/ebiatawodi
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ebiatawodi
• YouTube mixes: https://www.youtube.com/@EbiAtawodi/videos
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Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
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In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Ebi’s background
(04:31) Four key elements of a product vision
(08:14) Examples of lofty but attainable visions
(11:43) Vision vs. mission 
(13:23) Examples of visions and missions from notable companies
(15:00) A simple framework for outlining a vision 
(20:51) Other methods for outlining a vision 
(23:29) The impact of writing clear headlines
(26:41) Using mockups to frame your vision
(28:24) A step-by-step approach to developing a vision
(32:58) Ebi’s “10 Things” document
(37:47) A quick summary of Ebi’s tips
(40:56) How to use the “10 Things” doc in a strategy session
(43:11) The three concentric circles of evangelizing 
(47:48) The cadence of developing a vision and bringing it to life
(49:26) Visions vs. micro visions
(52:58) First steps in developing a vision
(55:12) Infrastructure is the product
(56:39) Clarity and conviction, the main jobs of PMs
(59:58) Ebi’s narrative doc
(1:04:59) Conviction, its role in the job, and how to build it
(1:08:20) How to build company culture
(1:17:06) The monolithic culture at Uber
(1:19:09) The culture Ebi embeds in her teams
(1:23:58) How to evaluate your relationship with your engineering manager 
(1:26:02) What’s new at YouTube
(1:29:22) Ebi’s closing thoughts
(1:30:45) Lightning round
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Referenced:
• Andre Albuquerque on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andre-albuquerque
• TED’s mission: https://www.ted.com/about/our-organization#:~:text=Our%20mission%3A%20Spread%20ideas%2C%20foster,and%20create%20impact%20%7C%20About%20%7C%20TED
• Stripe’s operating principles: https://stripe.com/jobs/culture
• Microsoft’s vision and mission: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/about
• Tesla’s mission statement: https://www.tesla.com/blog/mission-tesla
• Lyft’s mission on Comparably: https://www.comparably.com/companies/lyft/mission
• Ebi’s playbooks and templates: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1tU3jpbq_xHcF4x1bdANCVBsO6rbQ8h1HqvdQfwGW4MA/edit
• Working Backwards Press Release Template and Example: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/working-backwards-press-release-template-example-ian-mcallister/
• Patrick Collison on X: https://twitter.com/patrickc
• Seinfeld meme: https://seinfeldmemes.com/you-know-how-to-take-the-reservation/
• Travis Kalanick on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/traviskalanick/
• Wimdu: https://www.wimdu.com/
• Leaving big tech to build the #1 technology newsletter | Gergely Orosz (The Pragmatic Engineer): https://www.l

Inbal Shani is the chief product officer at GitHub, where she leads core product management, along with product strategy, marketing, open source, and communities, including the development of GitHub Copilot. Prior to joining GitHub, she led engineering and product teams at Amazon and Microsoft. In today’s conversation, we discuss:
• What Inbal believes is overhyped and underhyped in the rapidly changing field of AI
• How AI-driven code generation is changing software development
• Her take on whether AI will replace developers
• How software development looks in 3 to 5 years
• How product teams operate at GitHub
• GitHub’s Next team, and other ways the company fosters a culture of innovation
• The success metrics and philosophy behind GitHub’s Copilot
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Brought to you by Jira Product Discovery—Atlassian’s new prioritization and roadmapping tool built for product teams | Sanity—The most customizable content layer to power your growth engine | HelpBar by Chameleon—The free in-app universal search solution built for SaaS
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Find the transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-future-of-ai-in-software-development-inbal-shani-cpo-of-github/#transcript
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Where to find Inbal Shani:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/inbalshani/
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Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
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In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Inbal’s background
(04:17) Why generative AI is not going to replace developers in the near future 
(05:54) Why AI-driven testing is underhyped
(07:48) What the next 3 to 5 years will look like
(10:13) Stats around the use of GitHub Copilot 
(12:07) How Copilot enables engineers to work more efficiently
(13:38) Common mistakes when adopting AI into your workflows
(16:42) How GitHub operationalizes “dogfooding”
(18:46) The philosophy behind Copilot
(20:24) Copilot’s success metrics
(24:54) How Copilot encourages collaboration
(26:37) What we lose when AI writes code for us
(29:35) A retrospective on the generative AI space
(30:47) Inbal’s thoughts on the future of AI
(32:35) How to make space for innovative product ideas
(34:37) How GitHub stays on the cutting edge of innovation
(36:44) The GitHub Next team
(39:20) Advice for early product managers
(42:17) Inbal’s “biggest learning” from her career
(45:34) Inbal’s closing thoughts
(46:19) Lightning round
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Referenced:
• How to measure and improve developer productivity | Nicole Forsgren (Microsoft Research, GitHub, Google): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-measure-and-improve-developer-productivity-nicole-forsgren-microsoft-research-github-goo/
• DORA: https://dora.dev/
• The role of AI in product development | Ryan J. Salva (VP of Product at GitHub, Copilot): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-role-of-ai-in-new-product-development-ryan-j-salva-vp-of-product-at-github-copilot/
• GitHub Universe 2023 day 2 keynote: The productivity platform for all developers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_o9kFPVeiw
• Satya Nadella on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/satyanadella/
• TomTom: https://www.tomtom.com/
• Failing Forward: Turning Mistakes into Stepping Stones for Success: https://www.amazon.com/Failing-Forward-Turning-Mistakes-Stepping/dp/0785288570/
• Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap and Others Don’t: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Great-Some-Companies-Others/dp/0066620996
• Turning the Flywheel: A Monograph to Accompany Good to Great: https://www.amazon.com/Turning-Flywheel-Monograph-Accompany-Great/dp/0062933795
• Dare to Lead Like a Girl: How to Survive and Thrive in the Corporate Jungle: https://www.amazon.com/Dare-Lead-Like-Girl-Corporate/dp/1538163527
• All the Light We Cannot See on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81083008
• The Wheel of Time on Amazon Prime: https://www.amazon.com/Wheel-Time-Season-1/dp/B09F59CZ7R
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Production a

This is a special episode of the podcast where I’ve curated my favorite interview questions that guests have shared, among over 100 podcast guests. Whether you’re a hiring manager, currently interviewing, or simply intrigued by the creative and perceptive questions that top product leaders rely on to find top talent, these questions offer unique insights into the strategies and philosophies that shape successful interviews.
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Brought to you by Sendbird—The (all-in-one) communications API platform for mobile apps | Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments
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Find the transcript at: ⁠https://www.lennyspodcast.com/my-favorite-interview-questions-from-100-guests/#transcript⁠
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Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
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In this episode, you’ll hear from:
(00:00) Lenny
(03:21) Eeke De Miliano
(03:57) Geoff Charles
(04:31) Shishir Mehrotra
(08:44) Yuhki Yamashita
(09:56) Katie Dill
(10:36) Karri Saarinen
(11:02) Camille Hearst
(11:28) Jiaona Zhang
(12:43) Noah Weiss
(13:10) Ben Williams
(14:41) Meltem Kuran Berkowitz
(15:29) Paige Costello
(16:13) Nikhyl Singhal
(17:51) Ayo Omojola
(18:20) Scott Belsky
(19:17) Lauryn Isford
(19:46) Paul Adams
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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.


Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Tom Conrad is the CEO of Zero and on the board of Sonos. He began his career in engineering at Apple, where he helped build key features that remain in iOS today. Tom was previously the VP of Product at Snap and the chief technology officer of Pandora. He also held leadership positions at notable tech flops Pets.com and Quibi, giving him a unique perspective not only on what it takes to build a successful company but also on lessons from failure. In today’s conversation, we discuss:
• Lessons learned from the infamous failures of Pets.com and Quibi
• Lessons learned from the successes of Apple, Pandora, and Snap
• Advice on choosing where to work
• Understanding the math formula of a business
• How to avoid burnout
• Why Tom says not everyone needs to be a founder
• What he’s building now
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Brought to you by Coda—Meet the evolution of docs | Jira Product Discovery—Atlassian’s new prioritization and roadmapping tool built for product teams | HelpBar by Chameleon—the free in-app universal search solution built for SaaS
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Find the transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/billion-dollar-failures-and-billion-dollar-success-tom-conrad-quibi-pandora-petscom-snap-ze/#transcript
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Where to find Tom Conrad:
• X: https://twitter.com/tconrad
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomconrad/
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Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
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In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Tom’s background
(04:40) Landing a gig at Apple
(07:41) Pioneering the blinking folder design on iOS
(11:04) Advice on choosing where to work
(12:43) The importance of trusting your gut when it comes to people
(14:05) Lessons from failed ventures
(17:32) Why and how Pets.com shut down 
(18:30) How Tom’s experience at Quibi renewed his passion for building
(28:48) Takeaways from Quibi and why it ultimately failed
(31:42) Failing is okay
(35:04) Tom’s career at Apple
(39:11) Lessons from You Don’t Know Jack
(40:24) Lessons from building Pandora
(48:24) Looking back at Pandora and what could have been done differently
(55:17) How Tom became VP of Product at Snapchat
(1:01:31) Tom’s philosophy on being involved as CEO
(1:05:51) Tom’s current role as CEO of Zero, and what he’s learned along the way
(1:10:37) How Zero builds product
(1:18:33) Advice on work-life balance 
(1:27:22) Contrarian corner: why not everyone needs to be a founder
(1:30:08) Lightning round
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Referenced:
• Ron Lichty on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ronlichty/
• What happened to Pets.com?: https://fourweekmba.com/pets-com-failure/
• 11 reasons why Quibi crashed and burned in less than a year: https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/22/21528404/quibi-shut-down-cost-subscribers-content-tv-movies-katzenberg-whitman-tiktok-netflix
• Meg Whitman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meg_Whitman
• Jeffrey Katzenberg on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffrey-katzenberg-4b3b47123/
• John Sculley on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnsculley/
• Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/
• How Pandora Soothed the Savage Beast: https://www.fastcompany.com/3001052/how-pandora-soothed-savage-beast
• Joe Kennedy on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joe-kennedy-329417/
• Why Did Yahoo Pay $160 Million for Musicmatch?: https://www.wired.com/2007/07/why-did-yahoo-p/
• TikTok Is the New TV: https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-new-show-tv-takeover/
• Evan Spiegel on X: https://twitter.com/evanspiegel
• Brian Chesky’s new playbook: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/brian-cheskys-new-playbook/
• What sets great teams apart | Lane Shackleton (CPO of Coda): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/what-sets-great-teams-apart-lane-shackleton-cpo-of-coda/
• Flashtags: https://lane.substack.com/p/flashtags
• Patrick Spence on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrickspence/
• The Philosophy of Ikigai: 3 Examples About Find

Paul Millerd spent several years working in strategy consulting and on the “default path” before deciding to walk away to work on his own in 2017. His book, The Pathless Path, chronicles his own journey and deep dive into the history of work and has been read by more than 40,000 people. His podcast, The Pathless Path Podcast, highlights conversations with others following unconventional paths. He also runs the online training business StrategyU, helping people learn the skills of consulting without having to work in the industry. In our conversation, Paul shares:
• An explanation of the “default path” and the “pathless path”
• Signs you may be stuck on the default path
• How to inch your way toward the pathless path
• Why Paul suggests everyone should take a three-month sabbatical
• Tips for embracing fear and betting on yourself
• How to work through the fear of losing money and prestige
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Brought to you by Sanity—The most customizable content layer to power your growth engine | Maui Nui Venison—The healthiest red meat on the planet delivered directly to your door | Wix Studio—The web creation platform built for agencies
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Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/redefining-success-money-and-belonging-paul-millerd-the-pathless-path/
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Where to find Paul Millerd:
• X: https://twitter.com/p_millerd
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulmillerd/
• Website: https://pathlesspath.com/
• Newsletter: https://newsletter.pathlesspath.com
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCofS_FvauuHc-x6mq7yz6nA
• Podcast: https://think-boundless.com/podcast/
• Email: paul@strategyu.com
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Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
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In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Paul’s background
(04:33) An explanation of the “default path”
(06:32) Questions to help clarify which path you are on
(07:35) Paul’s thoughts on “remixing your path”
(09:57) An explanation of the “pathless path” 
(12:06) Examples of the pathless path
(13:54) Why meaning is hard to find and sustain on a traditional career path 
(16:05) A case for the three-month sabbatical 
(18:16) A mindfulness and self-reflection exercise
(20:18) Why Paul recommends three months
(22:28) Advice to founders on offering sabbaticals
(23:40) Other tactics for self-discovery
(27:08) The variability of income in self-employed roles 
(29:12) Methods for staying afloat after leaving your job
(30:42) Tips for reframing your thoughts around money
(33:19) Why betting on yourself usually works out
(34:46) The importance of setting aside time for creative pursuits
(36:22) How to dip your toes in and find your path 
(37:53) Lenny’s personal journey
(39:27) Advice on dealing with the naysayers 
(40:22) How to acknowledge and tame your fears
(44:52) The “ship, quit, and learn” framework
(46:39) Why the pathless path is one of constant reinvention
(51:27) Paul’s response to criticism 
(58:02) First steps for getting started on your journey
(55:42) Lightning round
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Referenced:
• The Pathless Path: Imagining a New Story for Work and Life: https://www.amazon.com/Pathless-Path-Imagining-Story-Work/dp/B09QF6Q421
• David Autor on X: https://twitter.com/davidautor
• Tim Ferriss’s blog: https://tim.blog/
• Why you should define your fears instead of your goals | Tim Ferriss: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J6jAC6XxAI
• How Lenny Rachitsky Got 531,000 Substack Subscribers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMZem1NYfpM
• The Lindy effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect
• StrategyU: https://strategyu.co/
• David Deming’s website: https://www.daviddeming.com/nyt-columns
• The Great Work of Your Life: A Guide for the Journey to Your True Calling: https://www.amazon.com/Great-Work-Your-Life-Journey/dp/0553386077
• Wanting: The Power of Mimetic Desire in Everyd

Melissa Perri is the CEO of Produx Labs, a product management training organization; author of the seminal PM book The Build Trap; and a former Harvard Business School professor of product management. Denise Tilles is the CPO at Grocket, Melissa’s colleague at Produx Labs, and a seasoned product leader with over a decade of experience. Together they authored the new book Product Operations: How successful companies build better products at scale. In today’s episode, they share insights, strategies, and real-world experiences to master all things product ops. We discuss:
• What exactly product operations is
• The three pillars of the product ops role
• The biggest benefits of adding product ops to your organization
• Which tasks product managers should offload to product ops and which they need to own
• How to help PMs embrace the value of product ops
• Examples of companies that have implemented product ops well
• Who and how to hire for this role
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This entire episode is brought to you by Jira Product Discovery—Atlassian’s new prioritization and roadmapping tool built for product teams
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Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-product-operations-melissa-perri-and-denise-tilles/#transcript
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Where to find Melissa Perri:
• X: https://twitter.com/lissijean
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissajeanperri/
• Website: https://produxlabs.com/
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Where to find Denise Tilles:
• X: https://twitter.com/dtilles
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/denisetilles/
• Website: https://www.denisetilles.com
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Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
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In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) About our guests, Melissa Perri and Denise Tilles
(03:46) How common is the product operations role?
(07:41) The benefits of having a product ops person in your organization
(09:16) How to help PMs embrace the value of product ops
(11:44) The three pillars of the product ops role
(15:25) How user research fits in
(18:35) Why product ops will be an essential role for product managers to thrive
(24:24) Which tasks product managers should offload to product ops and which they need to own
(28:58) Project management vs. product ops
(29:44) The jobs of a product ops person
(37:38) Why the product ops role will never become obsolete
(39:31) How many product ops people you need
(45:13) First steps in building out a product ops team
(47:06) What to look for in your first hire
(51:11) Key skills needed for a product ops person
(57:29) Who product ops should report to
(59:50) An example of rolling out product ops at Athena Health
(1:09:35) Lightning round
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Referenced:
• Product Operations: How successful companies build better products at scale: https://www.productoperations.com/
• Produx Labs: https://produxlabs.com
• How to create a winning product strategy | Melissa Perri: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-create-a-winning-product-strategy-melissa-perri/
• Blake Samic on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/blakesamic/
• Escaping the Build Trap: How Effective Product Management Creates Real Value: https://www.amazon.com/Escaping-Build-Trap-Effective-Management/dp/149197379X
• Athena Health: https://www.athenahealth.com/
• Pendo: https://www.pendo.io/
• PopSQL: https://popsql.com/
• Understanding the role of product ops | Christine Itwaru (Pendo): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/understanding-the-role-of-product-ops-christine-itwaru-pendo/
• Doodle: https://doodle.com/en/
• Stephanie Leue on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephanie-leue/
• Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira
• Dovetail: https://dovetail.com/
• Looker: https://cloud.google.com/looker/
• Brian Bhuta on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianbhuta/
• How to sell your ideas and rise within your company | Casey Winters, Eventbrite: