Shake the Dust KTF Press

Welcome to the Season four kick-off! Today, we have our first interview with one of the authors from our anthology on Christianity and American politics, the incredible Dr. Randy Woodley. The episode includes:
-        How dualism defines White worldviews, and how it negatively affects White Christians
-        How love and vulnerability are central to a life with Jesus
-        Why our voting decisions matter to marginalized people
-        And after the interview in our new segment, hear Jonathan and Sy talk about the attack on teaching Black history in schools, and the greater responsibility White people need to take for their feelings about historical facts
Resources Mentioned in the Episode
-            Dr. Woodley’s essay in our anthology: “The Fullness Thereof.”
-            Dr. Woodley’s book he wrote with his wife, now available for pre-order: Journey to Eloheh: How Indigenous Values Led Us to Harmony and Well-Being
-            Dr. Woodley’s recent children’s books, the Harmony Tree Trilogy
-            Our highlight from Which Tab Is Still Open?: The podcast conversation with Nikole Hannah-Jones and Jelani Cobb
-            The book A Race Is a Nice Thing to Have: A Guide to Being a White Person or Understanding the White Persons in Your Life
Credits
-        Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our newsletter and bonus episodes at KTFPress.com.
-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.
-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.
-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.
-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.
-        Production by Sy Hoekstra.
-        Transcript by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra
Transcript
[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes, the first three ascending and the last three descending – F#, B#, E, D#, B – with a keyboard pad playing the note B in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]
Randy Woodley: So the Europeans were so set in this dualistic mindset that they began to kill each other over what they consider to be correct doctrine. So we had the religious wars all throughout Europe, and then they brought them to the United States. And here we fought by denomination, so we’re just like, “Well I’m going to start another denomination. And I'm going to start another one from that, because I disagree with you about who gets baptized in what ways and at what time,” and all of those kinds of things. So doctrine then, what we think about, and theology, becomes completely disembodied to the point now where the church is just looked at mostly with disdain.
[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]
Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. My name is Jonathan Walton.
Sy Hoekstra: And I am Sy Hoekstra, we are so excited to be starting our interviews with our writers from our Anthology in 2020 that we published when we [resigned voice] had the same election that we're having this year [Jonathan laughs]. So it's still relevant at least, and we're really excited to bring you Dr. Randy Woodley today. Jonathan, why don't you tell everyone a bit about Dr. Woodley?
Jonathan Walton: Yeah. So Dr. Woodley is a distinguished professor emeritus of faith and culture at George Fox Seminary in Portland, Oregon. His PhD is in intercultural studies. He's an activist, a farmer, a scholar, and active in ongoing conversations and concerns about racism, diversity, eco-just

Season four starts next week! Hear Jonathan and Sy talk about:
-            What to expect this year from the show during this election cycle
-            A reintroduction to everything KTF does, and why we do it
-            How we really, genuinely need your support right now, and ways you can help
Credits
-        Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our newsletter and bonus episodes at KTFPress.com.
-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.
-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.
-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.
-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.
-        Production, editing, and transcript by Sy Hoekstra.
Transcript
What’s Coming in Season Four
[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes, the first three ascending and the last three descending — F#, B, F#, E, D#, B — with a keyboard pad playing the note B in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.” After a brief pause, the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]
Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice! I’m Sy Hoekstra
Jonathan Walton: And I’m Jonathan Walton. Welcome to season 4!
Sy Hoekstra: We are so excited to have you here. We’re going to be doing something very special for this season during this presidential election cycle
Jonathan Walton: Yes, we’re going back to our roots. The first thing we did with the company that makes this podcast, KTF Press, was publish an anthology in 2020 called Keeping the Faith. It had 36 authors writing political theology and personal stories to explain their opposition to Christian support for Donald Trump.
Sy Hoekstra: We called it an anthology of dissent, a record of resistance toward the church’s political witness in America. And our guests this season are going to be authors from that book, talking about what they wrote and how they’re thinking about their faith and the political landscape now.
Jonathan Walton: You’ve heard some of the writers from the book on this show before, like Dani Espiritu, Scott Hall, and Wissam Al-Saliby. And we’re excited to bring you Dr. Randy Woodley, Brandi Miller, Mark Scandrette, Rasool Berry, and many more this season. The first episode is dropping this upcoming Friday, May 24, with Dr. Woodley.
Sy Hoekstra: We’ve recorded some of these already, and we’re really excited to get them to you in the coming months.
What We Do at KTF, and Why
Sy Hoekstra: But before we jump into this season, we want to give you all a bit of a refresher on what exactly it is we do at KTF Press and why we do it. And the reason that we want to tell you all that is because we really need your support right now.
Jonathan Walton: That’s right. We do everything that we do to help people seek Jesus, confront injustice, and resist the idols of the American church that got us to the religious and political mess we’re in right now. This show is all about hearing personal stories and informed discussions to help you do just that.
Sy Hoekstra: And our weekly newsletter is where we curate media to help you in your discipleship and learning about politics and policy. You get commentary from us on issues important to our national discourse, and we also give you something each week to help you stay grounded and hopeful. Plus, you get news about what’s going on with us at KTF, previews of this show, and a whole lot more.
Jonathan Walton: We also write articles on similar subjects for our website, we have the anthology, and Tamice Spencer-Helms’ incredible memoir we published last year, Faith Unleavened, about how White Jesus nearly destroyed her faith, and how she left him behind to find her way to liberatio

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.ktfpress.com

On today’s episode, Jonathan and Sy talk Christian Nationalism. They cover:
-        What Christian Nationalism is exactly
-        Why they personally reject it
-        Why it’s so hard for White Christians to let go of the idea that the US is a Christian nation
-        Why White Christians need to confess, repent of, and oppose Christian nationalism, rather than merely stating that it’s wrong or minimizing its importance
Mentioned in the Episode
-        Jonathan’s book, Twelve Lies That Hold America Captive
-        Dr. Anthea Butler’s article on why White evangelicals need to own Christian nationalism
-        The Belhar Confession from South Africa
Credits
-        Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our newsletter and bonus episodes at KTFPress.com
-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads
-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon
-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify
-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram
-        Production and editing by Sy Hoekstra
-        Transcript by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra
Introduction
[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes, the first three ascending and the last three descending – F#, B, F#, E, D#, B – with a keyboard pod playing the note B in the background… both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]
Sy Hoekstra: White Christians in our democracy today have power and we want to know what to do with that power. And the answer has to be, “Oh, we have to use it to enact what Jesus would enact.” It is trying to apply teachings from a person who was occupied, who was in no position of power, and who was not interested in establishing a government on Earth…
Jonathan Walton: [Laughs]. Yes, that’s true.
Sy Hoekstra: …to the question of how you establish a government on Earth [laughs].
Jonathan Walton: Yes.
[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]
Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, leaving colonized faith for the kingdom of God. I'm Sy Hoekstra.
Jonathan Walton: And I'm Jonathan Walton. Today, we're going to be talking about Christian nationalism. What it is exactly, why it's much closer to what the average White American Christian believes than you might think, and some others might think, and why rejecting it is mostly an excuse not to engage in some deeper and very necessary self-reflection about the church's political witness in America.
Sy Hoekstra: Just some small things like that, that's what we're talking about. Before we get to that, I just wanted to encourage everyone, as we've been doing all these bonus episodes, to go to Apple or Spotify and give this show a five-star rating. It really helps us as we try and spread the word about the show when people look at it and see that other people find it valuable, and we would really, really appreciate it. We've gotten some, a few more of these ratings as we've been asking you all to do it, and we would just please encourage anyone who hasn't done it to keep going. It's a really easy and free way to support what we do at KTF Press helping people leave the idols of the White American church to follow Jesus, and we very much appreciate it.
If you're on Apple, if you could give us a written review as well, those are so encouraging to us and they give other people a great kind of flavor of what the show is about from the perspective of readers. So Apple or Spotify, give us a five-star rating,

Listen to Jonathan read the essay of his we just published, and which is reprinted below. It's a personal story and reflection on overcoming the barrier to rest that is racism. For more stories like this, as well as our weekly newsletter, podcasts, and more, subscribe at KTFPress.com.

Last summer during a vacation, my family and I went on a zip-line course with a group of other tourists on Catalina Island off the coast of southern California. The landscape is epic and streaking through the sky over it was exhilarating. But a familiar feeling interrupted my joy–the anxiety of exclusion. I was the only Black person in the group. I committed myself to trying to enjoy the moment for the sake of my wife (plus, the tickets were not cheap). Then our White tour guide started asking questions.
On the platform at the top of each new line she threw out an icebreaker to the group. Her first question to me was, “What’s your greatest fear?” My internal response was, “One of my neighbors calling the police because there is a Black man at my house, and my daughters losing their Dad in the driveway.” But of course, I could not say that in front of all these White people. My momma raised me to prioritize White comfort because that meant I would always survive the day. So what came out of my mouth was, “This. I am jumping off a perfectly safe platform even though I have children to live for.” Everyone laughed. Deflection successful.
At the next platform, the guide asked, “What would be your last meal?” My internal answer: “Fried chicken, biscuits, mashed potatoes, watermelon, and every other stereotypically Black and objectively delicious dish that my people so generously prepare for one another and had to prepare for y’all by force.” My external answer: “Whatever the wonderful ladies at the church I grew up at are willing to serve me”. Everyone laughed again. Another deflection successful. That pattern continued. And as I skimmed the tops of trees on the last leg, I was glad the tour was ending. I had gotten used to jumping off the platforms. But I’ll never get used to jumping out of my skin. Afterward, the tour group went our segregated and stratified separate ways.
Later that week in a suburb of Los Angeles, I was cleaning my mother-in-law’s car, and a White woman crossed the street directly toward me. She was focused and intent. But at the last moment, within feet of the car, she turned onto the sidewalk and walked in a different direction, headphones in, not paying attention to me at all. So why did I experience her like a Russian fighter jet buzzing a US F-15? Why did my watch pick up an increased heart rate? Because I’m in a town where White supremacists rallied not too long ago, and no one seems aware that the blue-striped flags on the surrounding houses make me feel unwelcome. The woman walked out of sight. But my adrenalin kept me wondering if I was doing anything White people might find suspicious. I looked down at my glass bottle of ginger beer. Could a neighbor suspect I was drunk?
Anti-Blackness and White supremacy are real and still reign, and they left me weary after those ten days. On our way back home to Queens, I was glad to be going to a place where there are safe friends and a bed where I can sleep in peace, knowing my skin isn’t an anomaly and I have a community where I don’t have to deflect so much.
But on a morning not long after we got home, I was doing yard work in a hoodie. A White woman neighbor stopped her car and rolled her window down to tell me, “You better not have that hood on. People are gonna start asking questions.” I looked at her, smiled as unthreateningly as I could, and said, “You’re exactly right about that.” She laughed and drove away.
I spent the next minute removing her from the list of white people that are safe for me and my kids. I spent the next 10 minutes trying to figure out how to tell my wife that this happened. I spent the next hour trying

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.ktfpress.com

Note: The transcript for this episode is below, rather than in the usual separate post. We’re experimenting with ways to make our podcast posts more convenient and easier to find. Feedback is welcome as always at shakethedust@ktfpress.com!
This month, our bonus episode features a discussion about our big-picture thoughts on the 2024 presidential election and the possibility of a second Trump term. Jonathan and Sy get into:
-        How a Trump Reelection would harm marginalized people, democracy, and creation
-        How God’s sovereignty and familiarity with suffering would get us through another Trump administration
-        How both the oppression Biden’s administration causes and US history give us helpful context for thinking about Trump
-        How we can minimize the suffering of others by overreacting to Trump
-        And a discussion about a recent highlight from our newsletter on prison slave labor in America’s food industry
Resources Mentioned in the Episode
-        Our YouTube video of Dr. Mika Edmondson on MLK’s theology of suffering and sovereignty
-        The essay from our anthology, “Bad Theology Kills” by Jesse Wheeler
-        The AP’s investigation into prison labor and the Food Industry
Credits
-        Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our newsletter and bonus episodes at KTFPress.com
-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads
-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon
-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify
-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram
-        Production and editing by Sy Hoekstra
-        Transcript by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra
Introduction
[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes, the first three ascending and the last three descending – F#, B#, E, D#, B – with a keyboard pad playing the note B in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]
Jonathan Walton: I think there's a, there’s just healthy, healthy gifts in Scripture when we remember that Jesus lived in an occupied territory by an empire that was ruthless, just like the United States. It’s not a new thing to Jesus, it’s not a new thing to God, which I'm really, really grateful for. Like our Savior understands. That's the reason he can say in scripture, “There will be wars and rumors of wars, let not your heart be troubled.”
[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]
Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, leaving colonized faith for the kingdom of God. I am Jonathan Walton.
Sy Hoekstra: And I am Sy Hoekstra. We today, are going to be talking about the election coming at the end of 2024.
Jonathan Walton: Lord Jesus…
Sy Hoekstra: Of course, I'm talking about the election for New York City comptroller. No, I'm talking about the presidential election [laughter] in the United States of America. When it comes to season four of this show when we get started in a couple of months, we are going to be talking mostly, if not all, about the election. Kind of bringing on some guests that we think have a really good perspective, just really diving deep into this crucial subject for this time. And we thought it would be a good idea to give you, our lovely paid subscribers some perspective before we dive into that. Some of like where we are coming from when we think about the election.
How important is it? What are the truly bad things that will happen if Trump gets r

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.ktfpress.com

On today’s episode, Jonathan and Sy talk about what keeps them going in the work that KTF does. Hear their thoughts on:
- The spiritual and emotional practices that keep Jonathan grounded
-        Why Sy only prays when he feels like it, and consumes a lot of fiction
-        The importance of the image of God and living in shalom with your surroundings to Jonathan
-        How Privilege and anxiety interact with each other
-        Why Sy wants to show people another way of living is possible
-        And Jonathan’s recent newsletter recommendation about a massive, nearly untouched national park and the important environmental and cultural questions surrounding it
Mentioned in the episode
-        The Prayer of St. Francis
-        A Franciscan Benediction
-        Our previous episode on family court and foster care
-        “Thou, Oh Lord” by the Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir
-        The episode of the Field Trip podcast about Gates of the Arctic
-        The book Palo Alto: A History of California, Capitalism, and the World
Credits
-        Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our newsletter and bonus episodes at KTFPress.com
-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads
-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon
-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify
-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram
-        Production and editing by Sy Hoekstra
-        Transcript by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra
Introduction
[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes, the first three ascending and the last three descending – F#, B#, E, D#, B – with a keyboard pad playing the note B in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]
Jonathan Walton: If I hung out, and I could do this, hang out in the systemic all the time, I would not want to get out of bed. I wouldn't. Like if I just read the news and just knew the statistics and just laid my life down every day at the altar of my social media feed and my algorithm to feed the outrage machine, that would be a very, just not a fun way to live.
[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]
Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, leaving colonized faith for the kingdom of God. I'm Sy Hoekstra.
Jonathan Walton: And I'm Jonathan Walton. Our topic today is what keeps us going in the work that we do here at KTF when we're constantly confronted with difficult subjects. Like what are the practices and experiences and the ideas that sustain us. We'll also be introducing our new segment, Diving Deeper into one of our recommendations from the newsletter, which we have recently decided is going to be called “Which Tab is Still Open?”
Sy Hoekstra: It's not introducing it. We've done it before, we're just doing it again, but now we've named it. That's the difference.
Jonathan Walton: [laughs].
Sy Hoekstra: We’ve named it Which Tab Is Still Open?
Jonathan Walton: That’s exactly right.
Sy Hoekstra: Before we get into everything quickly, as always… No, not as always, but as we're doing in these bonus episodes, I'm asking you, please everyone, if you support what we do—and I know that you do support what we do because you're listening to this bonus episode that is only for subscribers—please go to Apple Podcasts or Spotify and give us a five-star rating. And if you're on Apple Podcasts, give us a written review. The ones that we have there are great,