Energy Capital Podcast

Doug Lewin

The Energy Capital podcast focuses on Texas energy and power grid issues, featuring interviews with energy professionals, academics, policymakers, and advocates. www.douglewin.com

  1. 4 DAYS AGO

    Building a Solar Supply Chain in Texas with T1's CEO Daniel Barcelo

    This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit www.douglewin.com Most solar panels are imported from China which now has the ability to manufacture over a terawatt (1,000 gigawatts) of solar modules every year — roughly equal to the entire installed base of generation in the US inclusive from every energy source. America makes less than 1/20 of that amount and even less when it comes to the more difficult task of manufacturing cells. But Texas is known for manufacturing and T1 — short for Type 1 civilization — is building solar manufacturing in Texas that could change the game. This is about energy abundance that is reliable, local, and affordable. As T1 CEO Daniel Barcelo told me: “I’ve been working in oil and gas and I am an old oil and gas guy who has run oil and gas companies globally. At the end of the day, it’s really about providing the lowest cost energy in whatever form it is and delivering that energy at a cost-competitive basis to the customer. That drives the philosophy at T1.” T1’s plan is straightforward and ambitious: a multi-site Texas footprint that connects a domestic solar manufacturing chain from materials to finished modules. The company has a module assembly plant in Wilmer in the Dallas area, and is developing cell manufacturing in Rockdale in Central Texas. Upstream, they’ve lined up domestic polysilicon supply from Corning to feed those lines. While T1 scales up supply, demand for power is surging. Texas electricity use is rising rapidly, driven mostly by oil and gas demand, cryptocurrency mining, industrial electrification, and data centers. Texas demand is up 23% in the last four years; most of that new demand is being met by solar power. When more of the equipment is made here, projects move faster and carry less supply-chain risk. And solar can be scaled very quickly to meet near-term needs. “AI needs energy. Data centers need energy. They need it now. It’s great to build nuclear plants in 2030. That’s awesome. But the world’s not waiting. And the big tech companies are not waiting. And right now, solar and storage can deliver it.” This is not either-or. Texas has long succeeded by adding the next tool that works. Solar plus storage are tools for growth and we should use them. Domestic manufacturing creates jobs and strengthens our energy security and global competitiveness. Texas has never waited for someone else to build our future. If companies like T1 can stand up the full stack here, we get more than panels. We get speed, security, control, and the ability to match ERCOT’s needs with Texas-made solutions. If you found this episode useful, share it with a colleague. If you want more Texas-first, reality-based energy coverage, subscribe and join the conversation. The Texas Energy and Power Newsletter is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Timestamps * 00:00 – Introduction * 02:00 – T1’s Texas footprint overview * 04:00 – U.S. solar chain, Corning partnership * 05:30 – Jobs and polysilicon-to-module flow * 07:00 – Building U.S. cell capacity * 09:00 – Timelines and receptivity of Texas political leaders * 11:00 – Demand growth requires gigawatts per month * 13:00 – Competitive advantages of building in Texas * 15:30 – Oil and gas demand growth met by solar and wind, saving $1/barrel * 20:30 – When King Coal tried to kill natural gas and why gas won * 23:00 – Political economy of varying energy sources * 25:30 – Can the US build enough solar to meet domestic need and export? * 31:00 – Solar trade investigations, tariffs, anti-dumping rules, FEOC * 35:00 – Solar and manufacturing tax credits under OBBBA, “stackability” * 38:00 – How and why tax policy benefits all energy, including oil and gas * 42:00 – Will Texas continue to blaze trails and attract new energy companies? * 45:00 – Distributed power is “sovereign energy” Resources Guest & Company• Daniel Barcelo — LinkedIn • T1 Energy — Company Website + LinkedIn Company & Industry News• Reuters: T1 Energy and Corning agree to fully U.S.-made solar supply chain• PV Tech: T1 Energy–Corning “landmark” U.S.-made poly/wafer/cell deal• Manufacturing Dive: T1 to establish $850M solar cell facility in Texas• T1 Energy IR: Corning deal accelerates ‘Made in America’ solar • T1 Energy IR: Strategic investment in Talon PV Related Articles & Podcasts• How Batteries Are Reshaping the Texas Grid (with Suzanne Leta) • Beyond the Tax Credit Cliff (with Freedom Solar CEO Bret Biggart) • Creating a Distributed Battery Network (with Zach Dell)• The End of Solar & Battery Manufacturing in America? Studies & Policy Documents • S&P Platts 2022 Study On Electrification of the Permian Basin • Rystad Study on $/barrel savings • FERC Order 636 • Section 232 Investigations • Foreign Entity of Concern Guidance | Dept. of Energy Doug’s Platforms• LinkedIn • YouTube• X (Twitter) Transcript Doug Lewin (00:05.25) Welcome to the Energy Capital Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Lewin. My guest this week was Daniel Barcelo, the CEO and chairman of the board of T1 Energy. We talked about how they got their name in this episode. I think you’ll enjoy that. This is a fascinating company, headquartered in Texas. They are building out a full end-to-end manufacturing of solar in Texas. They started with the acquisition of a manufacturing plant, five gigawatts of solar module assembly in Wilmer, Texas, just south of Dallas. They are currently building in Rockdale, Texas, about 60 miles north of Austin, a cell manufacturing facility. So obviously cells are much more complicated to manufacture, much more complex than the module manufacturing. They are also in partnership with Owens Corning to get the raw materials actually sourced here in America. So that when they are done with that process in a year or two, they will have end-to-end American solar manufacturing. So we talked a lot about the potential for American manufacturing of solar, how big it is now, what its potential is to maybe counterbalance China, which is really dominating electricity supply chains throughout a whole number of different components, including all parts of the solar supply chain. They’re dominating that globally. Can America be a counterbalance? One of the things I really enjoyed about this conversation is Daniel has a great perspective, having worked in oil and gas for much of his career, really at the broad spectrum of energy. So I think that really comes through in the interview. I think you’re going to enjoy that. This is a paid episode. If you’re not already a paid subscriber, please become one today. You’ll get access to all sorts of things, roundups, reading your podcast picks, other paid episodes of the Energy Capital Podcast. Most importantly, you will be supporting the work of this podcast, the Texas Energy and Power Newsletter. They are not cheap to produce, and your six bucks a month or five bucks a month if you do an annual subscription is incredibly important, deeply appreciated. With that, let’s jump into the episode with Daniel Barcelo of T1. Daniel Barcelo, welcome to the Energy Capital Podcast. I am very excited to talk to you. T1 is making a whole lot of waves, people in Texas talking about the company a lot. Why don’t we just start from the beginning. What is T1 and tell us about the Texas operations you guys are standing up. Dan Barcelo (02:31.8) Great. First of all, Doug, thank you very much for having us. We’re always excited to talk about the T1 story, something we’re really passionate about as energy operators, managers, investors, historically. T1 Energy is building a domestic solar and battery supply chain that we want to invigorate America with clean, scalable, reliable, and low-cost energy. This is all about advanced manufacturing. This is about how do we bring advanced manufacturing capacity to unlock the most scalable resources we have. That’s what we’re doing. We’re doing this with our core foundational assets. We own and operate our five-gigawatt solar module plant just south of Dallas. That’s called G1 Dallas. And we are also building our five-gigawatt solar cell plant north of Austin called G2 Austin. Those two assets are foundational. The other part of the investments we’ve made is we also own a supply chain of polysilicon from Hemlock. Coupling that polysilicon supply chain coupled with the cell plant, coupled with the module side, we have a tremendous capacity to unlock what we think is a very scalable, renewable power asset we have available right now. Doug Lewin (03:42.39) Yeah, it’s pretty exciting because I see the vision of what you’re trying to do here, right? Because what we have in the United States right now, if I’m not mistaken, and you correct me on any of this I get wrong. This is your world. But my understanding is we’ve got something like 50 to 60 gigawatts of capacity of solar module manufacturing. So that’s sort of the last phase where you’re bringing the assembly, kind of bringing it all together. But you guys are going way upstream to raw materials. And you mentioned something just there. I’m not sure I heard what you said, but I do want to get more into this. I think you guys announced a deal with Corning, right? For some of the raw materials. Not sure if that goes through to the wafers, but I do kind of want to break that down a little bit, Dan, because I think the audience will really appreciate it. It’s very important. I think it’s very important that the United States have the full end-to-end capability for manufacturing. And it looks to me like you guys are doing that with the partnership of Corning upstream, then actually making the cells, correct, in Rockdale, which is what you’re calling the G2 Austin plant, close enough, like 50 miles or so from Aus

    21 min
  2. Innovation and Investment in ERCOT: Recorded Live from GCPA

    22 OCT

    Innovation and Investment in ERCOT: Recorded Live from GCPA

    The full video is on Youtube Texas isn’t just projecting future load growth; it’s happening now. Maura Yates of Mothership Innovations set the stage for our discussion at GCPA’s Fall conference earlier this month in Austin. “We are looking at meters that are 800 megawatts on a single meter… that’s crazy. We used to think 10 megawatts was a big deal…” She also cut through the headline noise: “The next three years are really critical… This is the them we are hearing at this conference: it’s a near term discussion… We have a big, urgent discussion ahead of us.” How much of the 200 gigawatt large load queue is real and how much will actually come in the next few years? Hayden Stanley of Good Peak brought the developer’s eye to the near term. He sees a “whole new layer of infrastructure” coming as the grid gets smarter and more coordinated, but warned that SB6 complexity and behind-the-meter buildouts can slow timelines. Tom McGinn with EnergyWell focused on “lifting the system load factor” with tools people don’t have to think about, built on “optimizing interval-level usage to respond to price signals.” He added a sober note: in the next few years, mass-market customers could get squeezed by rising load in the short term, though he thinks in the longer term, Texas will have continued investment in the grid and new technologies and abundance for consumers. Zach Dell of Base Power Company reframed things taking a much longer view: You’ve got to make large investments with a long-term time horizon. And I think there are really strong precedents for this kind of orientation in other parts of technology. You saw Uber do it in transportation, Amazon in commerce, SpaceX in aerospace. We’re taking a similar approach to energy where we’re making 10, 20 year investments, both in terms of the technology that we’re developing, but also in terms of how we think about policy. Base has added 100 megawatt-hours in the short time it’s been in business and is now adding 20 megawatt-hours per month. Large loads are coming but so is innovation across the grid. Timestamps * 00:00 – Opening * 01:00 – Guest introductions * 03:30 – Load growth happening now much faster than expected * 04:30 – Critical discussions are about the next 2-3 years * 07:00 – Smarter grid, higher load factors, new infrastructure layers * 09:00 – Potential bearish load growth over the next few years * 10:30 – Thinking long term about resiliency and costs * 12:00 – Is ERCOT still working to remove roadblocks? Are process changes needed? * 17:00 – Smart meters enable design innovation and response to price signals * 19:30 – Demand-side flexibility from batteries: “price down, reliability up” * 22:00 – Base Power’s scale, the new factory in Austin * 24:00 – Gigawatt scale virtual power plants (VPPs) * 25:00 – Inflation Reduction Act repeal * 26:30 – The advantage of distributed, smaller scale (* 28:00 – Senate Bill 6 and the case for a more bearish demand growth case * 30:00 – What could slow down load growth * 33:00 – Data problems with large load demand response * 34:00 – Audience question: Data center water use, closed loop design * 36:30 – Audience question: Doug’s one top policy change, would it be a carbon tax? * 37:30 – Audience question: Zach- when will you expand to California? * 38:30 – Audience question: Will grid tech still advance if there’s not load growth? * 40:30 – Closing Resources Panelists & Company * Maura Yates LinkedIn, Company Page & LinkedIn * Hayden Stanley - Bio, Company Page & LinkedIn * Zach Dell - LinkedIn, Company Page & LinkedIn * Tom McGinn - Linkedin, Company Page & LinkedIn * Doug Lewin - LinkedIn, YouTube, Twitter, Bluesky, and Threads Books, Articles & Podcasts Discussed * Load Growth: What States Are Doing to Accommodate Increasing Electric Demand (EPRI) PDF (Clean Energy States Alliance) * NRG’s Gigawatt VPP in Texas with Travis Kavulla (Energy Capital Podcast) * Shape Load Perfectly, Inject Energy Optimally with Sonnen’s Blake Richetta (Energy Capital Podcast) * The Year the Texas Legislature Changed the Energy Game Forever by Russell Gold (Texas Monthly) * ERCOT CEO Pablo Vegas Board Presentation: Transcript Doug Lewin (00:06.464) It’s great to be here this morning. Hope everybody’s doing great. It’s been a great couple of days. Really want to thank Gulf Coast Power for again putting together such a great event. I think my first Gulf Coast Power was like 15, 16 years ago. This is the 40th anniversary. It’s amazing to see you guys still going so strong. This has been a great conference. I’ve learned a ton, caught up with a lot of people. I am Doug Lewin. I do a couple of different things, but one of the things I do is I host the Energy Capital podcast. We are recording this today and we’ll release it as an episode. For those that are listening later, we are in Austin at the AT&T Conference Center at the Gulf Coast Power Conference. So I have four amazing panelists here. I can’t wait to get into this discussion. We’ve got a lot to talk about, but would each of you just briefly introduce yourselves and your companies so folks kind of know who you are. You want to start at the end? Go ahead, Zach. Zach Dell (00:58.366) Hey everybody, I’m Zach Dell. I’m co-founder and CEO of BASE Power. BASE is a retail energy provider and battery developer based here in Austin. Started the company about three years ago. Our mission is to lower the cost of electricity for all. And we do that by developing technology solutions, hardware, software, and the like to help rebuild the infrastructure here on the power grid in Texas and beyond. Doug Lewin (01:20.458) And I’ll just say I did record a podcast with Zach. It was like a year ago, more than a year ago now. Two years ago. Was it really that long ago? Wild. So for those that want to know more about BASE, you can go back, whether you’re in the room or listening later, you can go back and listen to that one. Go ahead. Tom McGinn (01:35.16) Hi, I’m Tom McGinn. I’m Senior Vice President of Energy Trading at EnergyWell. EnergyWell operates a few different load-serving entities in competitive markets in the US, along with offering software and consulting services to other market participants. I’ve been working in competitive markets for almost 20 years now across all the competitive ISOs in the US, kind of at the intersection of the wholesale and retail functions in those companies. So yeah, happy to be here with everyone. Doug Lewin (02:03.694) Thanks Tom. Hayden. Hayden Stanley (02:05.486) How’s it going? My name is Hayden Stanley. I’m the co-founder and COO of GoodPeak. We’re involved with building out distributed generation assets in ERCOT. We’re vertically integrated. And we’ve recently also entered the digital realm with data centers. So excited to be here today. Maura Yates (02:22.466) Maura Yates, the co-founder and CEO at Mothership Energy and Mothership Innovations. We are a retail electricity provider and ERCOT market service provider to large loads and load-serving entities across ERCOT. So everything from billing and operating services to QSE services, but again, really focusing on large complex loads across ERCOT. Doug Lewin (02:44.61) Such a great panel, so much knowledge and experience and lots of different experiences and different businesses represented here. So let’s just start at a very high level with a question I like to ask on the podcast. Zach, I don’t remember if I asked you this one two years ago. I probably did, but it’d be interesting to compare and contrast your answers if I did. It’s one of my favorite questions, which is just to kind of look ahead four or five years. You know, sometimes I think 10 and 20 years is like too far. Who knows? It’s anybody’s guess, but four or five years far enough away that we’re not talking about tomorrow or next week or even next year. You’re looking like a 2030 kind of view. What do you think is really going to change in this Texas market? What are the technologies you’re kind of most excited about? And I think even let’s talk a little bit about what are some of the roadblocks and obstacles to getting to that vision. You want to start? Maura Yates (03:32.526) Sure. So for those who know me in the room, they know that I’ve participated in the market for a while and done everything from resi in the kilowatts all the way up to now megawatts and gigawatts. So we’ve seen this really crazy, interesting evolution, especially the integration of renewables into ERCOT. And I was reflecting with somebody last night about where we saw the market in 2013. 2025 was so far out. And did we see where we were, you know, 12 years ago? And I think in general, we kind of had a sense, yeah, this is where we were going to see a lot of renewables come online. We had a good idea of where generation was going, but I don’t think we had a good idea of where load was going. Obviously the latest incentives to move business to the state have really helped drive that. And not only did we not see where load was going, we didn’t see the scale at which load was going there. Like we are looking at meters that are 800 megawatts on a single meter. That’s crazy. That’s insane. We used to think 10 megawatts was a big deal. Now 10 megawatts is like, I don’t know if we have time for 10 megs. That feels really small. So I mean, we’ve seen this really, really rapid shift and this change in trajectory in terms of where we’re seeing this market go. And so when we talk about the next five years, it’s really interesting. It’s going to be, I think, much faster the rate of change than what we’ve seen perhaps the last five years. We saw the last five years coming. I don’t know if we saw the next five years coming. So when I think about what’s going to happen, I think the next t

    41 min
  3. 15 OCT

    How Data Centers Can Strengthen the Texas Grid with Camus Energy CEO Astrid Atkinson

    Watch the Conversation on YouTube Headlines warn that data centers are straining the Texas grid. The reality is more interesting: data centers — through their own flexibility and by supporting distributed flexibility markets — can strengthen the grid. I explored that topic and a lot more with Astrid Atkinson, CEO and co-founder of Camus Energy and former senior reliability engineer at Google. At Google, she led teams responsible for keeping the world’s search engine online, matching computing load to available capacity across continents. Her lessons from that experience translates well to the grid: reliability doesn’t come from scale alone. Reliability comes from flexibility and orchestration. Astrid calls it “grid orchestration” which means coordinating and optimizing both supply and demand in real time all the way down to homes and businesses, but starting with better data and better management of the distribution grid. We’re moving toward a more decentralized network of flexible resources: batteries, EVs, thermostats, and yes, data centers. We’re going to need a much smarter, much better orchestrated grid. Texas already has the raw material for this shift. Rooftop solar, batteries, and EVs are scaling faster than ever. We now have over 6 gigawatts of distributed resources in ERCOT, roughly the size of six large power plants. But they’re not well coordinated and that disorganized integration means we’re leaving cost savings and reliability benefits on the table. Part of the problem is that market signals aren’t flowing to distributed resources at a level near their actual value. That’s where data centers could potentially come in.If data center developers fund load flexibility, they could potentially put money into consumers’ pockets and increase their speed to interconnection. [D]ata centers fundamentally are not really budget constrained for getting these things built. They’re really time constrained. And so, I think in there is the opportunity to start thinking about off-market or kind of secondary market opportunities to get value for flexibility, both from the site itself, but also from you, me, batteries [and other DERs]… Astrid’s experience offers two key lessons for Texas: * Automation must be simple and local. The best systems don’t depend on constant central control. * The biggest savings aren’t in wholesale prices, they’re in avoided infrastructure. Flexible demand can defer costly upgrades to poles and wires, easing pressure on bills. We’re seeing movement in the right direction, ERCOT’s efforts to integrate distributed energy resources, electric cooperatives piloting new demand response tools, and increasing talk of creating distribution-level markets where buyers and sellers can trade flexibility directly. Texas has always led by embracing what’s next before anyone else believed it could work. This is the next frontier: flexibility, orchestration, and coordination of DERs. “There’s never been a more exciting time to work in this industry,” Astrid said. She’s right. We have the tools, the data, and the entrepreneurial spirit. What we need now is the will to connect them. The path forward isn’t about choosing between growth, affordability, and reliability. If we build smart, Texas can have it all. If this perspective resonates, share it with someone who cares about where Texas energy goes next and subscribe to stay part of that conversation. Watch the Interview Here: Timestamps: * 00:00 – Intro * 02:30 – Astrid’s background and Camus * 05:00 – Google reliability lessons * 06:30 – Texas load growth reality * 11:00 – Contracting flexibility, framing the problem * 12:30 – Internet-scale orchestration parallels * 14:30 – Major reliability event takeaways * 18:00 – What a flexible grid requires * 20:00 – Paying Texans for household flexibility * 27:30 – Visibility before control (DSO layer) * 31:30 – Intelligent automation, local control * 34:00 – Value is in avoided T&D spend * 38:00 – Co-ops and munis as testbeds * 46:30 – Edge markets and price signals * 56:30 – Bills down, capacity up, resilience * 58:30 – Closing thoughts Resources: Guest & Company * Astrid Atkinson (LinkedIn) * Camus Energy, (LinkedIn) Company & Industry News * “So What Does Camus Do Exactly?” (Camus Energy blog) * Camus wins Innovation Challenge Award at Data Center World (Camus Energy) * Access “Getting ahead of the EV tipping point” AES and Camus White Paper (Camus Energy) * Voltus “Bring Your Own Capacity” Announcement (Voltus) * ERCOT Selects GE Vernova to Help Drive Innovation in DERs Announcement (ERCOT) * ERCOT Grid Research, Innovation, and Transformation Announcement (ERCOT) * Community pressure mounts against CPS disconnection policy, rate structures (San Antonio Express News) * National Energy Assistance Directors Association. Energy Hardship Report. * Google’s new plan to keep its data centers from stressing the grid (Canary Media) * Texas law gives ERCOT authority to disconnect data centers in emergencies (Utility Dive) * Texas data center buildout, stranded-cost risks and planning challenges (Utility Dive) * MIT: Data center flexibility can cut costs, emissions vary by region (Utility Dive) Related Podcasts by Doug * How Load Flexibility Could Unlock Energy Abundance (with Tyler Norris) * Why the Old Utility Business Model Doesn’t Fit Anymore with Lynne Kiesling (Part 1) * AI, Outage Risks, and Market Opportunities with Lynne Kiesling (Part 2) * YouTube clip — Texas Grid Growth Depends on Data Center Flexibility: Related Substack Posts: * ERCOT and Texas Need a Different Kind of Growth * Demand-Side Resources Could Enable Load Growth * March 4, 2025: Data Centers, Nukes, VPPs, and More Transcript: Doug Lewin (00:05.356) Welcome to the Energy Capital Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Lewin. My guest this week is Astrid Atkinson. She is the CEO and co-founder of Camu Energy. The conversation was a really great one. We got into one of my favorite topics these days, which is how can data centers coming onto the grid actually increase the reliability of the grid and improve affordability for customers? So we talked a lot about data centers potentially actually creating funds to get demand reductions and demand flexibility in people’s homes and businesses that would put money back into their pockets while strengthening the grid, giving data centers speed to power. We talked about particularly the DSO model, distribution system operator model, and what that might mean in the United States. These are common in other parts of the world, but we really don’t have designated entities in the US that are DSOs. We talked about intelligent automation and how processes being automated can actually make it easier for human operators. The economics of DERs, distributed energy resources, so much of the value of DERs is the potential reduction in cost in the distribution system. Transmission distribution utilities have so many different investment opportunities, but how do you prioritize those to make sure that you are rate-basing the most important for reliability and expansion and all of the things that we need while also ensuring that where distributed energy resources might defer or even make unnecessary the need for additional investment that you are tapping those distributed resources. We even got into ERCOT’s demand response proposal, which is live right now at ERCOT, the ADER pilot in Texas. We covered a whole lot. Astrid is incredibly smart, brings a wealth of experience to this area and really enjoyed spending this hour with her. I hope you’ll enjoy it as well. Please like, rate, and review this wherever you listen to your podcast. Share it with friends, family, and colleagues. And thank you so much for listening. Astrid Atkinson, welcome to the Energy Capital Podcast. So excited to have you here. So excited to learn from you. You are a wealth of knowledge on so many of the issues I love to talk about and work on. Why don’t we just start, if you would, just tell the audience a little bit about yourself and Camu and also your background coming out of Google and how your work there kind of informed what you’re doing now. Astrid Atkinson (02:22.046) Hi, it’s great to be here. Yeah, absolutely. So I’m CEO and one of the co-founders for a company called Camu Energy. And we provide grid software primarily for grid operators, but also we work with folks that are developing assets that need to get connected to the grid as well. So thinking both about how we manage the grid, but also about how we plug people into it. My background prior to co-founding this company about six years ago was on the big tech side. I was at Google for a really formative period from about 2004 until I started the company in 2019. And that was a period of time during which Google and the tech industry went through a really massive period of growth and just a fundamental change in how we think about software, the role of software in the world, and also the physical infrastructure that we use to provide that. So I was really fortunate to be part of the original push towards data center scale computing and cloud scale computing when that was being invented. I was part of the team that helped build the internal cloud that powers all of Google’s public facing products today. And in particular, I spent the majority of my career there on a team called Site Reliability Engineering, which deals with basically the interface between physical and built infrastructure. So data centers, networks, et cetera, the computers and servers that actually do work for software systems, and then the software and data infrastructure that we use to operate and manage those. My team was responsible for about five years for Google’s public-facing web presence, Google’s homepage. If you went to google.com to see if your internet was working between

    1h 3m
  4. Beyond the Tax Credit Cliff with Freedom Solar CEO Bret Biggart

    8 OCT

    Beyond the Tax Credit Cliff with Freedom Solar CEO Bret Biggart

    The federal 30% solar tax credit has driven demand for solar but it’s about to expire. And when it does, some worry the bottom will fall out of the market. But what’s actually emerging looks less like a collapse and more like a shift which could lead to bigger growth down the road. In this episode, Bret Biggart, CEO of Freedom Solar, offers a grounded look at how a major Texas-based installer is adapting in these uncertain times. Freedom Solar began in Austin and now operates across Texas, one of the fastest-growing residential markets in the country. The Texas Energy and Power Newsletter is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Biggart notes that while the tax credit’s end will make sales more difficult, other forces like rising power prices and better financing tools are keeping solar within reach. New third-party ownership models are allowing companies to use commercial incentives to maintain homeowner savings, smoothing out the post-credit transition. That’s not the only shift underway. Consumer protection has become a growing focus for regulators after years of aggressive door-to-door sales and subcontracting issues. A recent Texas bill aims to bring more transparency to the process, ensuring buyers know who is selling, installing, and servicing their system. The Texas Legislature also made it easier to build with faster permitting. And storage is quickly moving from luxury to standard: 67% of Texans get storage with solar from Bret’s company now. The number is 90% in Houston. Freedom Solar is also expanding into efficient HVAC systems like heat pumps, which cut energy use and increase comfort. There are still challenges ahead. Equipment costs, tariffs, and permitting inconsistencies remain barriers and the ending of the tax credit is an undeniable headwind. But after Winter Storm Uri and Hurricane Beryl, Texans put a high value on resilience and the flexibility of distributed systems has massive value for the grid. Even as incentives fade, technology keeps improving, and Texans want reliable, resilient, and affordable power. That’s what this moment represents, not the end of the solar story, but its maturation. If you found this perspective useful, share it with a neighbor and subscribe for more grounded insights on Texas energy and policy each week. Timestamps * 00:00 – Introduction * 01:45 – Guest intro and background, origin of Freedom Solar * 05:00 – Importance of in-house salespeople and customer-first processes * 07:30 – Impacts of federal budget bill, end of tax credits * 11:00 – Long term implications for solar, rethinking the business * 13:30 – Third party ownership, pre-pay PPAs and other structures to lower costs * 17:30 – Transferring solar and solar payments when selling a house * 20:00 – Consumer protections and stopping bad sales practices * 25:00 – Some Texas bills that make it easier to build and install solar + storage, problems with implementation * 31:00 – Attachment rates of storage is up to 67% statewide and 90% in Houston * 33:30 – An integrated demand side: solar + storage + heat pumps * 39:30 – Difficulties for customers trying to get heat pumps * 43:30 – Heat pump cost differential from minimum performance HVAC * 46:30 – Supply chain, tariffs, domestic content * 51:00 – Two main variables for solar economics: cost to install and cost of electricity * 53:00 – The value of resilience * 56:00 – Closing Resources Guest & Company• Bret Biggart - LinkedIn • Freedom Solar Power + LinkedIn Referenced During the Show• Solar legislation passed in Texas’s 89th Session (summary) • New law cuts red tape for rooftop solar and batteries (SB 1202) + Bill Text • TDLR: Residential Solar Retailers program (SB 1036) overview • Texas Legislature passes Residential Solar Retailer Regulatory Act (SB 1036) • Do Solar Panels Increase a Home’s Value? | The Wall Street Journal • Texas Energy Poverty Research Institute’s Community Voices survey • Sara DiNatale’s award-winning series on solar sales | San Antonio Express News • Heat pumps, heat pumps, heat pumps! Noahpinion Related Podcasts by Doug• Resistance is Still Futile: Exploring Heat Pumps with Eric Wilson • How Load Flexibility Could Unlock Energy Abundance with Tyler Norris • Know Before You Go Solar with Sara DiNatale Related Substack Posts by Doug• The End of Solar & Battery Manufacturing in America? • Rapid Demand Growth Outpaced by New Supply in Texas • Energy Scarcity • Helping the Grid by Helping Customers Doug’s Platforms• LinkedIn • YouTube • X (Twitter) Transcript Doug Lewin (00:05.87) Welcome to the Energy Capital Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Lewin. My guest this week is Brett Biggart. He is the chief executive officer of Freedom Solar Power. Freedom is one of the largest solar companies in the country, top 10 by size, around 500 employees, and probably the largest or among the largest within the state of Texas. I thought it was a good time to do an interview with a solar entrepreneur, given all the changes going on with the tax credits. But here’s somebody who’s employing a whole lot of people, is worried about the future of the industry, partially because of some of the changes made in DC, but is determined to innovate and is in fact doing that around financing where there are tax credits that can continue for leased systems for the next couple of years. Also innovating by starting up Freedom HVAC to complement Freedom Solar because HVAC is by far the largest use inside Texas homes. So linking that with the power generation for his business made a lot of sense. So we talked a lot about how companies can innovate. We also talked about some of the legislation that was passed during the session to remove permitting barriers, a bill that was passed to increase consumer protection, which Brett actually advocated for. We covered a whole lot of ground. I hope you enjoy the show. Please give us a five-star review wherever you listen, and please share the recording with anybody who you think might want to listen. That is one of the ways we grow fastest is through organic growth and sharing. So please like and share the podcast with anyone you know. With that, enjoy the show. Brett Biggart, welcome to the Energy Capital Podcast. Excited to have you here. Been reading your tweets and posts and seeing your name in news stories for quite a while. You guys are a pretty big deal in the solar space in Texas. You built quite a business over the last decade or so, a little longer than a decade. At this point, why don’t you just start by telling us a little about yourself, just briefly about Freedom Solar, origin story, size, scope, all that kind of stuff. Brett Biggart (01:47.704) Thank you for having me. Sure. I guess the short version of this is Adrian Buck and I started Freedom Solar probably around 15 years ago. And I had kind of come out of the sort of professional finance world after business school. I actually got sober—that was sort of the catalyst thing in full transparency. And I got sober and I was trying to figure out what to do with my life, as many of us come to those junctions. And I moved back to Austin where I’m from, where I grew up, and the idea of starting a solar company kind of came to me and I started to do some research and try to figure out sort of as a customer, what’s the value proposition for a customer trying to go solar. And I couldn’t figure out the answer to that question. You know, I couldn’t get people to call me back. I was sort of doing the math, you know, there were tax credits and there were local rebates and trying to think about kilowatt hours. It took me about two weeks to sort of get to the answer of like, what does this cost and what is the sort of payback, the economics of it. That was sort of a light bulb moment. Like, wow, there’s got to be other people out there that have a similar situation that are just trying to quickly understand the economics to make a decision. Does it work or not? And so Adrian and I—I met him and we sat at a Mexican food restaurant and I sort of said, look, I think I’m going to start a solar company and here’s why. Sort of fragmented. People don’t really explain it very well. Don’t know how to finance it, sell it. And I’ll never forget this. He sat across from me and he says, “Okay, I get that. Like I’ve been doing this for—I was the first NABCEP certified guy in Texas and I’ve been running installation crews and doing installs and designing systems for a while now, but I don’t even like people.” Okay. So this sort of behind the scenes, you know, profile of a guy who’s very technical and very detail oriented, doesn’t quite frankly like to deal with people. And so we sort of got together at that moment and started out of his garage. And so that was whatever it was 15 years ago. Doug Lewin (04:08.152) So him more on the technical side, you more on the people side, basically. Brett Biggart (04:11.852) Yeah, clearly. And so we were like, let me see if we can go put together a way to explain this to customers in a way that wasn’t explained to me, which is a clear kind of quick way to get to a yes or no, it either works or it doesn’t. And then his skill set to go install the solar and do a great job and sort of bend over backwards on the quality side. You know, we started building the business in the first year. We were like, okay, wait a minute. We just did a million dollars. Whoa. High five. Unbelievable. And then the next year we sort of did $8 million and we kind of high-fived and said, whoa, this is sort of growing. And Austin has always been sort of a leader, certainly in Texas, I would say, as it relates to renewable energy. And so they had a good program here. So it was a good place to start. And then we sort of expanded across Texas, San Antonio,

    57 min
  5. 2 OCT

    NRG's Gigawatt VPP in Texas with Travis Kavulla

    Texas load is rising fast, supply chains are tight, and the cheapest near-term resource is demand we shape intentionally. But are the right economic signals there to bring this resource to scale? Texas has a highly competitive power supply market, but the demand side is severely underdeveloped. In my conversation with Travis Kavulla, former Montana PSC Chairman and current leader in retail innovation, we explored how Texas can unlock the cheapest near-term resource by shaping demand on purpose. Retailers now have both the data and tools to automate flexibility in homes and small businesses. That’s the fastest way to keep bills in check and the lights on during tight hours. “The incentives are there for sure… when spot prices rise above a flat retail rate, the incentive flips, and it’s valuable for both the retailer and the customer to reduce.” Smart Meter Texas enables interval settlement, and connected devices like thermostats, EVs, and batteries can now respond automatically. This is finally real. Retailers are competing not just on price, but on automation. NRG has moved its virtual power plant strategy to the center of its retail offering, pairing Vivint installations with demand response. “We announced a one-gigawatt goal… and hit 150 megawatts this year.” That flexibility hedges against the most expensive hours and brings value directly into customers’ homes. ERCOT has also proposed a program, capped at 500 MW, that pays households for reducing use in the tightest hours. It helps offset hardware costs and puts residential customers on more even footing with large industry. Our system should reward shifting, not just saving — using more when power is plentiful, less when it’s scarce. That avoids overbuilding while meeting growth from data centers, electrification, and hotter summers. Winter risk is just as much a demand issue as supply. Resistance heating drove massive spikes during Uri. Heat pump retrofits can improve reliability and affordability, but without targeted support, private markets may underinvest. Transmission costs are another sticking point. Large customers can avoid charges by guessing peaks, shifting costs onto everyone else. Residential customers use about a third of the energy but pay half of transmission, which rose more than 120% in a decade. Reforming 4CP so costs align with who drives grid build-out would be fairer. Texas can build a true two-sided market. Let competition automate flexibility in millions of homes, fix cost signals, and target winter risk directly. That’s how we keep bills manageable, stay reliable, and grow with confidence. If this breakdown was useful, share it with a friend or colleague, and subscribe so you don’t miss the next Texas-focused grid update. Timestamps * 00:00 – Introduction to Travis Kavulla * 02:00 – Introduction to NRG * 04:00 – ERCOT competition and demand side incentives * 06:30 – The importance of Smart Meter Texas * 09:00 – Innovation from competition, telecom and airlines analogies * 12:00 – Importance of demand flexibility both from AI and residential sectors * 15:00 – Rate design for shifting use * 17:00 – Increasing load factors, how using more energy can be energy efficient * 19:00 – NRG’s VPP with Google / Renew Home and their progress toward their 1 GW goal * 23:00 – Integration with smart home technologies * 25:00 – The potential for customers to lower prices * 28:00 – Sponsor: Aurora Energy Transition Forum * 28:45 – ERCOT’s residential DR proposal, why ERS doesn’t work for small customers * 32:00 – Why NRG has broken from other generators to support residential DR * 34:00 – REPs in Texas’ energy efficiency programs * 38:00 – Can we leverage markets to reduce wintertime outage risk through energy efficiency? * 41:00 – Part of the cause of Uri outages was extremely high demand, difficulty * 44:00 – Lack of focus from Utility Commissions on demand side * 46:00 — Sponsor: Intersolar and Energy Storage North America * 47:00 — Utilities are incentivized to spend on capital but not on operations * 52:00 – Why and how transmission cost allocation and 4CP should change * 57:00 – Closing Resources Guest & Company• Travis Kavulla: LinkedIn• NRG Energy: Website, LinkedIn Referenced in the Conversation • Travis’ University of Chicago Syllabus: Utilities and Electricity Markets: Regulation in the United States • Book: Prophets of Regulation• Travis’ ESIG Whitepaper: Why is the Smart Grid So Dumb? An Audit Report on Critical Infrastructure Activities at the Railroad Commission NRG’s filing post-Uri on wintertime demand with resistance heat 100% higher than summertime demand, referenced in my very first Substack article: 2022 Cold Snap Shows Resistance is Futile Company & Industry News• NRG, Renew Home, and Google Cloud announce plan for a 1 GW Texas VPP • NRG to buy 18 gas plants from LS Power in $12B deal (Reuters)• NRG wins nearly $800M in Texas Energy Fund loans for gas plants (Houston Chronicle) Related Podcasts by Doug• The Name of the Game is Flexibility• Creating a Distributed Battery Network with Zach Dell 📄 Related Substack Posts by Doug• Texas Load Growth, Challenges and Opportunities• ERCOT CEO says we need all resources• New Residential Demand Response Proposal in Texas (Grid Roundup #74)• Solar, Storage, Gas, and VPPs in Texas (Reading & Podcast Picks) 🌐 Doug’s Platforms• LinkedIn• YouTube• X (Twitter) 📅 Upcoming Events / Sponsor Information• October 21: Aurora Energy Transition Forum• November 18-19: Intersolar and Energy Storage North America Transcript Doug Lewin (00:05.656) Thanks everybody for being here and thanks Travis for doing this, really appreciative to SPEER for putting on this great event. As Liz said, I was director of the organization for—I was going to say several years. I think it was many years, five years. It’s great to see the organization growing and thriving and see all of you involved. For those that are listening to the podcast later, we are at the SPEER Industry and Policy Workshop in Austin, Texas. And I’m really thrilled today to have Travis Kavulla here. Travis, I’ve been meaning to interview you for the pod for a while anyway, and I think this is a great setting and crowd to have this conversation because I don’t think there’s anybody better to sort of talk about how retail electric providers, right? A really dynamic market here in Texas with how many different retailers are there? Travis Kavulla (00:51.534) 80, 100? Many. Many. We love all of our competitors, we love competition, but there are a lot. Doug Lewin (00:56.682) Exactly. It’s a very thriving market. There’s a lot of different choice for customers, particularly in the Houston, Dallas, Fort Worth, Corpus Christi, Laredo, et cetera, parts of the state that are served by competition. And to really get into how energy efficiency and distributed energy resources can be advanced using competition and using retail electric providers, I think there’s nobody better than Travis for this. So Travis is vice president of regulatory affairs at NRG. He was commissioner and chair of the Montana—you guys call it the PSC there, ours obviously would be the PUC. He was also president, I believe was the title, of NARUC, National Association of Regulatory Utility Commissioners. So truly a thought leader in this space. Please join me in welcoming Travis Kavulla to the SPEER Workshop. Travis Kavulla (01:43.822) Thank you, Doug. Thank you, audience. We need those little things that say, “applaud” up here, I feel. Doug Lewin (01:50.318) I’ll just ask. We’ll just do that. It’ll be fine. All right. So first of all, anything before I get into some of the questions I’ve got for you, anything else you want to say by way of intro? As far as your background, maybe actually just like a brief word on NRG. I don’t want to assume folks know necessarily what NRG is. You guys are obviously a very big company, most probably do, but maybe give a little more background of yourself if you like and NRG. Travis Kavulla (02:11.342) Sure. So NRG is a retail electric provider in the state of Texas and all other states that allow customers of electricity and in some places gas, though not Texas, a choice in their provider. We’re also a power generator in the state. We sign a lot of power purchase agreements with third parties. And then we have a large natural gas marketing business. And relevant to this conversation, a smart home company that’s one of our most recent acquisitions called Vivint. So we operate basically across the United States, mostly in the competitive markets for power and gas. We have about 8 million customers across North America and a sizable chunk of generation as well. And then you got my bio down, Doug, but one of my passions is teaching. I teach, I’m a lecturer at University of Chicago as well, where I teach on—my syllabus is available for all of you to download for free. It’s a course on utility regulation and the design of electric power markets, which is sometimes not always intuitive. So that keeps me fresh with the youths, I’ll have to think. Doug Lewin (03:11.278) Clearly. You know, it’s funny you say that because I actually taught a semester at the LBJ School and I leaned pretty heavily on your syllabus, which is excellent. And anybody wanting to understand the history of regulation of the electric industry and how competition came about, like there’s probably no better place to look than your University of Chicago syllabus. Travis Kavulla (03:29.866) I’m pretty great, but I’m wearing the orange socks in your and the venue’s honor today rather than maroon. Doug Lewin (03:35.394) We much appreciate that. Thank you. All the Longhorns in the room want to clap for that? There’s only a couple of Longhorns. We’re at the University of Texas campus. Maybe they’re Ag

    58 min
  6. AI, Outage Risks, and Market Opportunities with Lynne Kiesling (Part 2)

    24 SEPT

    AI, Outage Risks, and Market Opportunities with Lynne Kiesling (Part 2)

    In Part 1 of my conversation with economist Lynne Kiesling, we traced how monopoly utilities and central planning helped electrify the country. That model worked. Economies of scale and guaranteed returns brought capital into the system, and within a few decades, nearly every home had electricity. But the world has changed. Technologies are smaller, decentralized, and more flexible. Risks are more complex. Consumers expect more than just “the light turns on.” In some areas, the old model now creates perverse incentives: rewarding capital spending over performance, insulating utilities from risk, and slowing innovation. So the question is: what comes next? In Part 2, we explore how markets can evolve beyond wholesale and retail competition to tackle the next frontier: risk allocation, demand-side flexibility, and performance-based regulation. And we look at how AI-driven data centers are testing the limits of the old model while creating new opportunities for Texas to lead. Markets as Error Correction Markets don’t just allocate resources, they correct errors. As Lynne explained: “If someone has made an investment and… we’ve built too many gas power plants, and we’re not earning profits on that, that’s a signal to me that I need to take my money and put it somewhere else.” That’s how we avoid repeating mistakes. Yet in the utility model, many risks never reach shareholders. After Hurricane Beryl, for example, CenterPoint admitted its failures but still posted a billion dollars in profits. Consumers bore the outage costs, while investors stayed insulated. The missing piece: markets for risk. Today, outage risk, rate risk, and weather risk aren’t fully priced or traded. Post-Uri, some generators took huge hits while others profited. That’s markets working. But for regulated utilities, risk rarely lands where it should. Of course, markets don’t solve everything on their own. Consumers need protection against fraud and market manipulation, and regulators still have a vital role in setting guardrails. The goal isn’t to remove oversight, but to let markets do what they do best, deliver solutions faster than central planning. Demand Flexibility For decades, demand seemed inelastic. People flipped a switch, the light came on, and rates averaged out costs. But digital automation has changed the game. Devices from EV chargers to air conditioners to fridges can now respond to prices automatically. “We could find that there is a lot more latent flexibility on the demand side that would not inconvenience or discomfort consumers.” - Lynne Kiesling Imagine refrigerators with backup batteries. When the grid is stressed, those batteries could keep food cold without drawing power, creating resilience for the household and flexibility for the grid. Markets can unlock this value. Today, no one pays you for your fridge’s flexibility. But if performance-based regulation and transactive energy systems take hold, millions of small, automated actions could add up to major resilience. Performance Over Spending Rate-of-return regulation rewards utilities for spending capital, not necessarily for delivering better outcomes. Lynne contrasted that with price-cap or performance-based systems: * Rate-of-return: utilities get a guaranteed return, no matter the outcome. * Price-cap: utilities must meet quality requirements under a certain cost * Performance-based regulation: rewards improvements in reliability, efficiency, or customer service, usually removes incentives for capital spending and removes disincentives for operational expenses “If I were rewriting utility regulation, there would be a penalty structure on your ROE depending on your [reliability] scores.”- Lynne Kiesling Aligning incentives with performance instead of capital spending could drive innovation from transmission and distribution utilities. AI and Data Centers: The Demand Tsunami Perhaps the most urgent shift is the rise of AI and hyperscale data centers. The International Energy Agency projects global data center demand will double by 2030. In the U.S., McKinsey forecasts a 23% compound annual growth rate through 2030, adding 400 terawatt hours of new demand, the equivalent of adding another Texas in just a few years. Utilities, designed for less dramatic acceleration, can’t match that pace. Data centers are already seeking alternatives: onsite solar + storage, natural gas peakers, geothermal pilots, and even small modular reactors. Texas has a leg up. In many states, large customers are captive even for their generating resources to the monopoly utility. In ERCOT, they can contract directly with generators. That flexibility is why AI companies are flocking here and why Texas can continue to lead. The Texas Energy and Power Newsletter is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. From Capacity to Capabilities The old system was built on capacity: how many megawatts you could generate or consume at peak. But AI and automation are shifting the paradigm. Most data centers won’t run at full tilt 24/7. Their true value — and the value of generation — lies in capabilities, how much load (or supply) they can flex, when, and where. “Capability and flexibility, with that intersection with time and location, that is kind of everything going forward.” - Doug Lewin Texas must evolve its mindset. It’s not just about building more capacity. It’s about enabling capabilities: flexibility, automation, and responsiveness that can balance reliability and cost in real time. Final Thoughts Texas built a world-class wholesale market by letting price signals communicate. The next step is to let that principle flow into risk markets, demand-side markets, and distribution markets. Markets, as Lynne Kiesling reminded us, are a discovery process. If we reward performance, enable innovation, and let capabilities speak louder than capacity, Texas can not only handle the AI and data center surge — we can do so while increasing reliability and lowering costs for residential and small commercial customers. That’s how we keep build out the grid and meet the challenges of the 21st century. If this resonated, share it with a colleague who cares about Texas energy. And if you haven’t yet, subscribe for more conversations and insights on the future of the grid. Sponsored by Aurora Energy ResearchAurora Energy Research provides leading analysis of global electricity markets. Explore their insights on the Energy Unplugged podcast and join their Energy Transition Forum in New York on October 21. Details at auroraer.com Timestamps * 00:00 – Welcome and Part 2 overview * 01:30 – Why central planning doesn’t work; next frontier: demand side * 04:30 – Markets as error correction, markets for risk including for fully regulated monopoly utilities * 08:30 – Demand flexibility via automation vs. customer actions * 12:00 – Transactive energy and user-friendly customer interfaces * 14:00 – Price cap regulation and performance-based regulation * 17:00 – Metrics for price cap and performance-based regulation * 20:30 – Sponsor: Aurora Energy Transition Forum * 22:30 – How AI data centers are reshaping demand * 25:30 – Make-or-buy decisions for AI infrastructure companies * 30:00 – Contracting for power in Texas * 32:00 – Crusoe, flare gas to power * 34:00 – Data center flexibility: reducing peak while overall energy use increases * 35:45 – Why we should talk about capabilities not capacity * 37:00 – Closing, where to find Lynne * 38:00 – Credits and thanks Resources Guest• Lynne Kiesling - LinkedIn, Knowledge Problem (Substack) Company & Industry News• Google, Kairos Power, TVA collaborate on advanced nuclear• Reuters, Google to buy power from Kairos SMRs• Google, Fervo geothermal project operational• Crusoe secures 4.5 GW for AI data centers Books & Articles Discussed• Alfred Kahn – The Economics of Regulation (two volumes)• IEA report on data center energy consumption • McKinsey report estimating 23% CAGR in U.S. data center electricity demand Related Energy Capital Podcasts Related Substack Posts by Doug• Why Are Utility Bills Rising So Fast?• Large Load Queue Has Tripled in Texas (Grid Roundup #76)• Solar and Storage Help Reliability (Grid Roundup #68)• Rapid Demand Growth Outpaced by New Supply in Texas (Grid Round #70)• Energy Pragmatism, A Path to Abundance 🌐 Doug’s Platforms• Substack• LinkedIn• YouTube• X (Twitter) Transcript Doug Lewin (00:06.05) Welcome to the Energy Capital Podcast. I’m your host, Doug Lewin. This is part two of my interview with Lynne Kiesling. She is a professor and historian of economics at Northwestern University and a non-resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. She is one of the smartest people on markets, particularly electric markets, anywhere. If you haven’t listened to part one, go back and listen to that first, because we get into some of the history, kind of bringing us up to the present. And then in this conversation, we talk a whole lot about the state of current electric markets, data centers and AI demand, risk allocation, and why that really matters for the grid of the future. You know, obviously this is a discussion going on all around the United States and around the world. And a lot of folks think that it doesn’t apply to Texas because we do have competitive generation and retail, but there is the potential for markets and price discovery on the distribution grid. And that is, as I talked about in the previous podcast with Charles Hua, the fastest rising part of the cost of the grid is on the distribution side. And even in a state as competitive as Texas is, there is no competition on that side. And there is a really important set of questions which we get into here as to whether or not that should remain the case. So with nothing fur

    39 min
  7. Why the Old Utility Business Model Doesn’t Fit Anymore with Lynne Kiesling (Part 1)

    17 SEPT

    Why the Old Utility Business Model Doesn’t Fit Anymore with Lynne Kiesling (Part 1)

    Over a hundred years ago, the monopoly business utility model emerged as the one that could attract sufficient capital to electrify everything. The monopoly utility business was championed by Thomas Edison’s protégé and early leader of ComEd in Chicago, Sam Insull. It worked. By mid-century, most Americans had power. But today, competition for generation and retail have shown that monopolies are not necessary. Texas is a poster child for for competition but even Texas has little competition on the distribution side — and the cost of distribution is skyrocketing with no ability for competitors to offer alternatives that could save consumers money. The monopoly model literally rewards utilities for spending more capital, even when smarter, cheaper options exist. In my conversation with economist Lynne Kiesling, we traced the arc from Insull’s vision to today, and talked about where the system is showing serious signs of distress. And we discussed how that could change… How We Got Here: Edison’s Machine Edison designed complete systems, from generators to the lamp in JP Morgan’s house. Insull scaled that model in Chicago, betting on economies of scale (bigger plants) and scope (serving factoreis, homes and electric trolleys together to increase system utilization and load factors). That became the vertically integrated monopoly: a single company, fully integrated, would keep costs low. Legislatures around the country formalized it, spreading the monopoly-utility model far and wide. It was the right model for the time. America needed electrification, and investors needed stable returns. “Economies of scale and scope… that’s your natural monopoly right there.” - Lynne Kiesling Why It Worked Then and Why It Doesn’t Now The framework assumed three things: * Bigger plants are always cheaper. * Vertical integration and central planning are essential. * Utilities should earn guaranteed returns on new capital. That fit a world that wasn’t yet electrified and needed massive centralized power plants. But two revolutions were disruptive to the monopoly model: * Gas turbines: By the 1980s, combined-cycle plants made smaller, flexible generation competitive and lower cost than bigger centralized plants. The “dash to gas” in the 2000s proved it. * Digitalization: Sensors, controls, and standards cut transaction costs. Coordination no longer required vertical integration. Price Discovery: The Linchpin Economist Friedrich Hayek described prices as a “system of telecommunications.” ERCOT proves it daily. When scarcity prices spike, batteries discharge, generators ramp up, demand response kicks in. Investors see those signals and commit capital for more resources. “Markets are a discovery procedure… trial and error with your own capital is how we get the most benefit.” - Lynne Kiesling Every bet on future conditions shapes tomorrow’s incentives. That’s why Texas leads in storage growth, retail innovation, and is attracting new gas peaker plants, too. But here’s the catch: we don’t allow price discovery work at the distribution level. The Last Monopoly Mile Transmission and distribution remain monopoly domains. Under today’s rules, utilities earn more by spending more. Propose a $50 million substation, get it approved, earn a return. But what if a portfolio of distributed resources (e.g. batteries, EV charging, demand response) solved the same problem for half the cost? In most states, including Texas, that option isn’t tested. Regulators just green-light the $50 million. That’s why Lynne calls for “quarantining the monopoly”: keep exclusive rights to the poles and wires, but open competition for solutions at the grid edge. Final Thoughts Texas already showed the world that wholesale competition works. Volatility spurs investment, spreads risk to investors, and drives down long-term costs. The next frontier is distribution. If we quarantine the monopoly to the wires while opening structured competition for everything else, we’ll see faster innovation, more reliability per dollar, and lower bills. That’s the Texas way: pragmatic, innovative, and willing to lead. This is just Part 1 of my conversation with Lynne Kiesling. Next week in Part 2, we’ll dive into data centers, AI demand, and why risk allocation will define the grid’s future. Timestamps * 00:00 – Introduction * 02:30 – Why history matters today * 05:00 – Edison’s vision for a fully integrated electric system * 07:30 – Insull’s bargain: regulate us but grant a monopoly & don’t municipalize * 10:30 – Was monopoly the right solution then? * 16:30 – Natural monopolies: economies of scale and scope * 20:00– Outdated assumptions, Texas competition * 22:00 – Rate-of-return regulation, capital bias, and technology innovation * 26:30 – The changes brought by combined-cycle gas plants and digitalization * 30:00 – Quarantine the monopoly, price signals * 31:30 – Do conservatives still support competitive markets? * 33:00 – How and why arbitrage lower prices * 34:30 – Distribution system efficiency and utility incentives * 37:00 – “Markets are a discovery procedure” * 40:00 – Let volatility speak, Texas choices * 42:00 – What’s the next frontier of competition Resources Guest & Company• Knowledge Problem (Lynne’s Substack) • Lynne Kiesling (Northwestern, Personal site, Santa Fe Institute, Books & Articles Discussed• The Merchant of Power: Sam Insull, Thomas Edison, and the Creation of the Modern Metropolis• Power Loss: The Origins of Deregulation and Restructuring in the American Electric Utility System by Richard F. Hirsh• Hayek: A Life, 1899-1950 by Caldwell and Klausinger• Competition as a Discovery Procedure, F. A. Hayek (QJAE translation) Related Substack Posts by Doug•Why Are Energy Bills Rising So Fast? A Conversation with Charles Hua • Creating a Distributed Battery Network with Zach Dell• The Energy Capital Podcast, Episode 1 with Will McAdams• Texas’ Load Growth Challenges and Opportunities, with Arushi Sharma Frank The Texas Energy and Power Newsletter is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a paid subscriber. Doug’s Platforms• LinkedIn• YouTube• X (Twitter) Transcript Doug Lewin (00:05.356) Welcome to the Energy Capital Podcast. I'm your host, Doug Lewin. My guest this week is Lynn Kiesling. There are few people in the electric industry I like reading and listening to more than Lynn. I'm kind of ashamed it took me this long to have her on the podcast, but better late than never. She is the director of the Institute for Regulatory Law and Economics at Northwestern University. She is a non-resident senior fellow at AEI, the American Enterprise Institute. The reason I wanted to have her on the podcast is I think she is sort of the academic expert par excellence on markets. She really understands markets inside and out. She has been as influential talking about transactive energy, talking about distributed energy resources and how they can participate in markets. She's been talking about these things more than just about anybody, talking about them eloquently. and really kind of pushing the envelope on what needs to happen in electric grids and electric markets for innovation. Obviously, with a focus on Texas and the electric market there, we split this into two parts. In the second part, which you'll hear next week, we got into all kinds of different stuff about data centers and their impact on electric grids, what they'll mean for competition. This was a ton of fun and a very wonky, deep conversation that I think you're going to enjoy. And more importantly, learn a lot from. Lynn is just a fantastic teacher and it was great to spend this 90 minutes with her. So you'll have 45 minutes today, another 45 next week as we go deep into the roots of electric competition and what it means for energy transition, affordability, reliability and all of that. So with nothing further, here's Dr. Kiesling. Doug Lewin (01:51.82) Lynn Kiesling, welcome to the Energy Capital Podcast. Thank you for having me, I'm glad to be here. I love reading your articles on Substack and knowledge problem. You obviously are an economist par excellence. are doing just great work on electricity systems and the evolution of electricity systems, competition, technology. You hit on all the things. Before we get into all that though, I think it helps to kind of ground people in like the, some of the history of all this and you're, you're an economist. but you're also a bit of a historian. So before we start talking about data centers and DRs and electric vehicles and all these cool technologies, you've written a lot, and I think just really eloquently and clearly, and I think you've done a great public service with that, about how the system of regulation we have, which is now well over 100 years old, is kind of showing some of the signs of its age. And is it quite keeping up with the technology and maybe needs to evolve? So can you talk a little bit about where we came from, sort of how we got that system, what defines that system, and where it's just kind of not fitting with where we're at right now? Lynne Kiesling (03:06.52) Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And I like the metaphor, you know, feeling like as I get older, my joints are creakier. And I think that's true about our institutional framework. Yeah. It's not just bodies. It's, know, the, kind of organic metaphor is relevant here. And for folks who, and especially maybe for students who are thinking about career paths, you know, I'm an academic by temperament and by career choice. So. You know, my fields in graduate school were industrial organization, because I went to graduate school to study electricity and with John Panzer at Northwestern. But then I got there and just got gripped by the love of economic history. And so I kept studying techn

    44 min
  8. Why Are Energy Bills Rising So Fast? A Conversation with Charles Hua

    9 SEPT

    Why Are Energy Bills Rising So Fast? A Conversation with Charles Hua

    Watch the Full Conversation with Graphs on YouTube (Updated) Utility bills are rising faster than ever. In the first half of 2025 alone, utilities requested $29 billion in rate increases, already a record for any full year, with months still to go. That’s more than double the pace of 2024. If you’re wondering why, you’re not alone. I hear this question constantly: “If renewables lower costs, why is my bill going up?” The answer: transmission and distribution. The costs of poles, wires, substations, and local infrastructure that move electricity from plants to homes is rising quickly, while the cost of generation is flat or declining in most places. To unpack why — and what can be done to help struggling consumers — I sat down with Charles Hua, Director of Powerlines, a new national consumer advocacy group focused on modernizing the regulatory system. The Real Reason Bills Are Rising “Generation is not what’s driving up bills. It’s really the transmission and distribution piece.” – Charles Hua Utilities are pouring capital into poles, wires, and substations. Much of it is necessary, but some isn’t. And because utilities earn profits on capital expenditures, they’re incentivized to build more; they are not incentivized to find cheaper alternatives. The data is striking: wholesale electricity prices have been flat, or even declined, over the past 15 years. Nationally, retail prices for households, meanwhile, have jumped from about 12¢ to 16–17¢ per kWh. And gas utility bills have been rising faster than electric bills. Those gaps are revealing. All Regulation Is Incentive Regulation Utilities make money by earning a rate of return on capital projects. But operational expenses, like vegetation management that could prevent outages, or cloud-based outage trackers, do not generate profits. The result is a bias toward big builds instead of low-cost, reliability-focused fixes. This is the system we have created and that needs reform. Consumers know something’s broken. Powerlines’ survey shows 4 in 5 Americans feel powerless over their utility bills, across Democrats, Republicans, and independents alike. Many don’t know what’s driving costs, and rate cases remain opaque and inaccessible. Short-Term Fixes: Squeezing More Juice from the Grid We don’t have to accept runaway bills as inevitable. There are proven tools available now: * Grid-enhancing technologies (GETs): Sensors and software that increase the capacity of existing lines. Charles calls them “ibuprofen for the grid.” * Distributed energy resources (DERs) and virtual power plants (VPPs): Solar, batteries, and smart devices coordinated to reduce peak demand and defer new builds. * Energy efficiency: Still the cheapest, fastest way to cut bills, though underutilized in Texas compared to other states. Each of these solutions stretches the grid we already have, reducing the need for constant billion-dollar expansions. Long-Term Reforms: Aligning Incentives with Outcomes Fixing incentives is key. Options include: * Performance-based regulation (PBR): Tying utility profits to outcomes like affordability and reliability, not just capital spending. * Distribution system planning: Opening the “black box” of utility investment so alternatives like DERs can compete with substation expansions. * Return on equity reforms: Expanding utility profit opportunities to operational solutions, not just capital-intensive projects. None of this is simple, but without it, the trajectory is clear: higher bills and growing consumer backlash. Why Texas Matters Texas is ground zero for this debate. Utilities like Oncor have outlined multi-decade capital plans that could quadruple spending by the 2030s. If nothing changes, those costs land squarely on customers. At the same time, Texas leads the nation in renewables, is building out batteries faster than any other state, and has the independent streak to pioneer smarter utility models. As Charles put it, “Now is the time for consumers to get engaged.” Final Thoughts Utility bills do not have to keep spiraling upward. We need investment in the grid, yes, but smart, efficient investment that maximizes resiliency while protecting affordability. This is where public utility commissions come in. Their decisions determine how much we pay, how reliable our grid is, and how fast we can adapt to rising demand. The challenge is real. So is the opportunity. If we get this right, Texas and the U.S. can build a grid that is stronger, smarter, and more affordable. Let’s make sure consumers have a voice in shaping it. Timestamps * 00:00 – Introduction * 02:00 – Meet Charles Hua, Powerlines * 05:00 – Why bills are rising * 09:30 – Different types of utilities * 12:00 – Profits and business model of T&D utilities * 13:30 – Alternatives to rate-based infrastructure * 15:00 – Why rates keep going up even as generation costs go down * 17:00 – Texas rates are low but our bills are high * 19:30 – Why 80% of consumers feel powerless over their electric bills * 22:30 – How ratemaking works, difference between OpEx and CapEx * 30:00 – All regulation is incentive regulation: moving toward paying for performance * 34:30 – The coming CapEx wave as evidenced by Sempra/Oncor * 39:30 – PUC engagement of the public; public interest in electricity and energy * 46:00 – Near term solutions, including Grid Enhancing Technologies (GETs) as “ibuprofen for the grid”; time-of-use rates, distribution system planning, etc. * 52:00 – Consumers aren’t represented at PUC’s now * 54:00 – How the public can engage in Texas * 57:00 – Different “win-win” business models that benefit utilities and consumers Resources Featured Guest & Organization * Charles Hua – Director of Powerlines, a national consumer advocacy group focused on modernizing utility regulation. * Charles Hua on LinkedIn * Powerlines.org – Reports, resources, and ways to get involved in utility regulation Mentioned in this Episode: * Tyler Norris et al., Rethinking Load Growth (Duke University) * Powerlines Report: Utility Bills Are Rising – Q1 and Q2 2025 Data on Utility Rate Increase Requests * For help shopping for better rates, see Power to Choose * Excellent Volts Podcast with Charles Hua * Senate Bill 1664 * PUC Office of Public Engagement * Office of Public Utility Counsel of Texas Related Energy Capital Podcasts * Octopus Energy US with Nick Chaset – discussion of EV rates and flexible load * Zach Dell with Base Power Company * Tyler Norris (Duke University) – deep dive on ERCOT load factor and grid efficiency * More episodes on utility regulation, affordability, and grid planning are available in the Energy Capital archives. Find More on Social * Doug Lewin on LinkedIn * Doug Lewin on Twitter/X * Doug Lewin on YouTube Transcript Doug Lewin (00:04.78) Welcome to the Energy Capital podcast. I'm your host, Doug Lewin. My guest this week is Charles Hua, the director of Powerlines. Powerlines is a fairly new organization now, a little over a year old, that is focused on helping people understand the critical and important job that public utility commissions do day in, day out to increase reliability and hopefully keep electricity prices lower. I really enjoyed this conversation. Charles is incredibly smart. Doug Lewin (00:33.942) and insightful. And we got into what I think is probably the most common question I get on Twitter and LinkedIn. Sometimes questions, sometimes arguments about why electricity prices are going higher. Spoiler alert, it is not because of renewable energy. It's because of the increased costs on the transmission distribution system, particularly on the distribution side. We did get into a lot of charts and figures and things like that. So if you're not already watching on YouTube, Doug Lewin (01:03.522) You might want to switch over there or if on Spotify you can see the video there, you should be able to see those charts, which I think really do and graphs, which really do tell a story. If you want to watch it on YouTube, Doug Lewin Energy is the channel. You can find me there. This is a free episode of the Energy Capital Podcast. It is not free to produce. We really, really appreciate our paid subscribers. If you're already a paid subscriber, thank you. If you are not. Doug Lewin (01:31.384) Please go to douglouen.com and become one today. You'll have access to the entire archives of articles of the Texas Energy and Power newsletter, all the paid episodes of the Energy Capital podcast, grid roundups, reading and podcast picks, special presentations, chats during ERCOT board meetings and most PUC open meetings. Public utility commissions, as Charles talks about, are incredibly important and I do follow them here at the newsletter and you can join and follow along. douglouen.com is where you do that. Doug Lewin (02:00.96) And last but not least, please do leave a five-star review wherever you listen. And with that, here is my interview with Charles Hwang. Doug Lewin (02:08.814) Charles Hoi, welcome to the Energy Capital Podcast. Let's start from the beginning. What is Power Lines? And tell us a little bit in that intro to Power Lines about this fantastic report you guys have out. Utility bills are rising, an analysis of utility bills and how they're affecting American energy consumers and who determines them. So what is Power Lines? And tell us a little about this fantastic report on utility bills. Charles Hua (02:11.384) Doug, thanks for having me. Charles Hua (02:35.95) Sure. Well, thanks again, Doug. So Powerlines, we're about a year old actually, a national organization where national consumer advocacy group focused on modernizing the utility regulatory system, really with two key objectives in mind. One is to lower utility bills and second hand in hand is to advance economic development and growth. You and I actually met August of 2024 in Houston during a very

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About

The Energy Capital podcast focuses on Texas energy and power grid issues, featuring interviews with energy professionals, academics, policymakers, and advocates. www.douglewin.com

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