Australia in the World Darren Lim

Joining Darren this episode is Jude Blanchette. Jude holds the Freeman Chair in China Studies at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS). There’s no-one whose analysis and commentary Darren values more highly in helping him understand China.  
The context for this discussion is the fact that this weekend China’s Premier Li Qiang will visit Australia, the first visit by Chinese #2 since 2017. Following on from PM Albanese’s trip to Beijing late last year, and FM Wang Yi’s trip to Australia in March, Premier Li’s visit will continue the process of unfreezing the political relationship, what the current Australian government famously labels ‘stabilisation’. However, the Albanese government has not escaped criticism for its approach to China. Some would argue Canberra has gone softer on Beijing than it could have, whether on responding to dangerous actions by the Chinese military, or on perennial issues like human rights. And there’s also been a criticism of stabilisation as strategy – what is the goal of stabilisation? What is the end state?
What is striking about these criticisms is how similar they are to criticisms of the Biden’s administration’s approach to China, which is often given the label ‘competition’. What is the goal of competition? Does the US just ‘compete’ indefinitely, a kind of steady-state, or should it be focused on an ‘end-state’? A recent piece by former Trump administration China lead Matt Pottinger and retiring GOP Congressperson Mike Gallagher argues that the goal should be not to compete, but to win.
With all this as context, recently Australia’s Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade hosted a group of US-based China experts here in Canberra, presenting Darren with an opportunity to interview Jude in-studio. Jude also hosts the excellent Pekingology podcast, where he interviews scholars and researchers who study the actions of China’s government and the CCP in particular.
In our conversation we cover Australia-China relations, US-China relations and the links between the two, and many other things besides. We start, of course, with the concept of stabilisation in the Australian context, but very quickly that broadens out into a discussion of the Biden approach given its parallels with stabilisation, and the Pottinger/Gallagher critique. We then turn to the question of how to influence China, and the balance between wielding direct influence versus working indirectly with partners. I ask Jude how he explains the apparent adjustment in PRC foreign policy in recent years, and how a potential Trump return to the Presidency might shake things up.
Above all however the big question overshadowing our discussion is this: what’s the best way of forging a long-term China strategy, how early are we into the competition phase with China, and how long will it last? And what is the narrative needed to sustain such a strategy?
Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Corbin Duncan and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.
Relevant links
Jude Blanchette (bio): https://www.csis.org/people/jude-blanchette
Pekingology (podcast): https://www.csis.org/podcasts/pekingology 
Matt Pottinger and Mike Gallagher, “No Substitute for Victory: America’s Competition With China Must Be Won, Not Managed”, Foreign Affairs, May/June 2024: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/united-states/no-substitute-victory-pottinger-gallagher
David Engerman, Know your enemy: The Rise and Fall of America's Soviet Experts (book): https://global.oup.com/academic/product/know-your-enemy-9780195324860
The Gloaming (band): https://www.youtube.com/c/thegloaming
Zach Bryan, “I remember everything” (feat. Kacey Musgraves): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVVvJjwzl6c

Two guests join Darren this week: Professor Joanne Wallis from the University of Adelaide and Professor Bec Strating from La Trobe University. They have recently published a book titled Girt by Sea: Reimagining Australia’s Security, published by Blank Inc. Their project is an ambitious one—to question the very foundations of what it means for Australia to be secure, and indeed who indeed it is that needs to be secure, and therefore how Australia should understand its strategic challenges and find lasting security. The importance of this book is demonstrated by fact that Foreign Minister Penny Wong launched it recently in Adelaide, where the Minister said that the questions the authors ask in the book are many of the questions she herself grapples with.
This is not however a standard “let’s talk about my new book” episode, because when Darren read Girt by Sea he was struck how much the book’s arguments were consistent with what he understands to be “progressive” principles of foreign policy thought. While Bec and Joanne do not fully embrace the progressive label for their work, it is nevertheless an interesting and arguably useful lens to frame the conversation, including the authors’ ‘reimagining’ project. In contrast, Darren would not label himself as a progressive thinker and disagrees with the book’s starting premise that Australian security needs reimagining, perhaps revealing himself to be a cranky conservative! But, hopefully, disagreement makes for an engaging conversation.
Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Corbin Duncan and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.
Relevant links
Joanne Wallis (bio): https://researchers.adelaide.edu.au/profile/joanne.wallis
Bec Strating (bio): https://scholars.latrobe.edu.au/bstrating
Girt by Sea: Re-Imagining Australia's Security (Black Inc, 2024): https://www.blackincbooks.com.au/books/girt-sea-0
Bisley, N., Eckersley, R., Hameiri, S., Kirk, J., Lawson, G., & Zala, B. (2022). “For a progressive realism: Australian foreign policy in the 21st century”. Australian Journal of International Affairs, 76(2), 138–160. https://doi.org/10.1080/10357718.2022.2051428
Van Jackson, Grand Strategies of the Left: The Foreign Policy of Progressive Worldmaking (Cambridge University Press, 2023): https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/grand-strategies-of-the-left/966D16DBED1238269D1B4816F41AEF7D
Statecraftiness: Mapping Competition, Cooperation, and Coercion in the Pacific Islands: https://www.adelaide.edu.au/stretton/our-research/security-in-the-pacific-islands/statecraftiness
Asia Rising (podcast): https://www.latrobe.edu.au/asia/podcasts
Taylor Swift, “Florida!!!” (feat. Florence + The Machine) (Official Lyric Video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEssK8o3jKg

Recent events in economic security (or, geoeconomics) have been dizzying, but exciting for Darren given this is his primary academic field. In Australia, the new budget delivered by the government plans over $20b of industry policy funding for a “Future Made in Australia”. Meanwhile in the US, the Biden Administration has sharply increased tariffs on Chinese goods focused on green energy. The US wants to cultivate domestic manufacturing, in part because it sees PRC dominance of green technology as a national security risk.
This means there is a lot to discuss! In this episode Darren talks with Hayley Channer. who is the Director of the Economic Security Program with the United States Studies Centre at the University of Sydney. Hayley has a diverse background having worked as an Australian Government official, Ministerial adviser, think tank analyst, and represented global non-profit organisations. Prior to her current role, Hayley was a Senior Policy Fellow with the Perth USAsia Centre and, amongst other accolades, was awarded a Fulbright Scholarship in 2022.
This lengthy discussion covers the goals of economic security policy and the inherent trade-offs in this domain, particularly in the context of both Australia’s and the US’ emerging industrial policy efforts, as well as the problem of responding to economic coercion.
Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Walter Colnaghi and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.
Relevant links
Hayley Channer (bio): https://www.ussc.edu.au/hayley-channer
Anthony Albanese, “A future made in Australia”, Speech, 11 April 2024: https://www.pm.gov.au/media/future-made-australia
Jim Chalmers, “Economic security and the Australian opportunity in a world of churn and change”, Speech at Lowy Institute, 1 May 2024: https://ministers.treasury.gov.au/ministers/jim-chalmers-2022/speeches/address-lowy-institute-sydney
Hayley Channer and Georgia Edmonstone, “What does ‘economic security’ mean to Australia in 2024?”, US Studies Centre Brief, 30 January 2024: https://www.ussc.edu.au/what-does-economic-security-mean-to-australia-in-2024
Lim, D. (2019). Economic statecraft and the revenge of the state. East Asia Forum Quarterly, 11(4), 31–32: https://eastasiaforum.org/2019/12/04/economic-statecraft-and-the-revenge-of-the-state/
Ferguson, Victor A., Darren J. Lim, and Benjamin Herscovitch. “Between Market and State: The Evolution of Australia’s Economic Statecraft.” The Pacific Review 36, no. 5 (September 3, 2023): 1148–80. https://doi.org/10.1080/09512748.2023.2200026
Victor A. Ferguson, Scott Waldron and Darren J. Lim (2022), “Market Adjustments to Import Sanctions: Lessons from Chinese Restrictions on Australian Trade, 2020-21”, Review of International Political Economy”, http://doi.org/10.1080/09692290.2022.2090019
Darren J. Lim, Benjamin Herscovitch, and Victor A. Ferguson, “Australia’s Reassessment of Economic Interdependence with China”, in Strategic Asia (2023): https://www.nbr.org/publication/australias-reassessment-of-economic-interdependence-with-china/
Leading (podcast), “Speaking Truth to Trump | Former Head of Trump’s Communications, Anthony Scaramucci”, 21 February 2024: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juvfEZsZqUY&list=PL_6zDbB-zRef_M7eXuSLUlGnt7qk66hJq&index=9
Abhijit V. Banerjee, Esther Duflo, Good economics for hard times: Better answers to our biggest problems (2019): https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51014619-good-economics-for-hard-times (Goodreads page)
Dani Rodrik, “Don’t Fret About Green Subsidies”, Project Syndicate, 10 May 2024: https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/green-subsidies-justified-on-economic-environmental-and-moral-grounds-by-dani-rodrik-2024-05

Zack Cooper of the American Enterprise Institute joins Darren to discuss the troubling trend of PRC military actions that are endangering Australian personnel and equipment, and those of our partners. Last week, a Chinese fighter aircraft dropped flares into the path of an Australian helicopter that was conducting a patrol in international waters as part of sanctions-enforcement against North Korea. Australia lodged diplomatic protests and PM Albanese called the action ‘completely unacceptable’. Similar incidents have happened before. Last year Australian naval divers suffered minor injuries after a Chinese warship released sonar pulses, and there have been other aerial incidents as well.
Why are Chinese forces doing this? Can Australia respond, either unilaterally or with partners? Is an increasingly risky maritime domain now simply part of the price of protecting our interests? Zack talks Darren through his perspective on these issues.
Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Walter Colnaghi and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.
Relevant links
Andrew Greene, “Australian helicopter forced to take evasive action after Chinese fighter detonates flares”, ABC News, 6 May 2024: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-06/australian-helicopter-chines-fighter-flares-hmas-hobart/103812042
Euan Graham, “China’s latest unsafe interception at sea was no accident”, ASPI Strategist, 8 May 2024: https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/chinas-latest-unsafe-interception-at-sea-was-no-accident/#:~:text=China%20habitually%20denies%20engaging%20in,endangered%20China's%20maritime%20air%20security
Sam Roggeveen, “Helicopter flare up should highlight China’s base instincts”, Lowy Interpreter, 7 May 2024: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/helicopter-flare-should-highlight-china-s-base-instincts
Corey Lee Bell and Elena Collinson, “The Yellow Sea flare incident: Expect more of the same”, ACRI Perspectives, 13 May 2024: https://www.australiachinarelations.org/content/perspectives-yellow-sea-flare-incident-expect-more-same
Nicholas Eberstadt, “East Asia’s Coming Population Collapse: And How It Will Reshape World Politics”, Foreign Affairs (online), 8 May 2024: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/china/east-asias-coming-population-collapse
Net Assessment (podcast): https://warontherocks.com/category/podcasts/net-assessment/

Stephen Dziedzic of the ABC once again joins Darren to discuss a busy month of news, starting with the recent election in Solomon Islands, then a bombshell Washington Post story about the alleged involvement of the Indian government in targeted killings (with a strong Australian angle); next the recent 2+2 bilateral with South Korea and the possibility of others joining onto AUKUS Pillar 2, and finishing with FM Penny Wong’s statement that statehood for Palestine is required to break the cycle of violence.
This episode was recorded on Friday 3 May, exactly one year following the death of Allan Gyngell. He is dearly missed.
Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Walter Colnaghi and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.
Relevant links
Stephen Dziedzic, Chrisnrita Aumanu-Leong, Evan Wasuka and Doug Dingwall, “Former diplomat Jeremiah Manele elected as new Solomon Islands prime minister”, ABC News, 2 May 2024: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-02/solomon-islands-new-prime-minister-election-jeremiah-manele/103791138
Greg Miller, Gerry Shih and Ellen Nakashima, “An assassination plot on American soil reveals a darker side of Modi’s India”, Washington Post, April 29, 2024: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/29/india-assassination-raw-sikhs-modi/
Penny Wong, “Speech to the ANU National Security College “Securing our Future”, 9 April 2024: https://www.foreignminister.gov.au/minister/penny-wong/speech/speech-anu-national-security-college-securing-our-future
Bettany Hughes, “The Seven Wonders of the Ancient World” (book): https://www.hachette.com.au/bettany-hughes/the-seven-wonders-of-the-ancient-world
Serial, Season 4 (podcast): https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/podcasts/serial-season-four-guantanamo.html  
Ezra Klein Show (podcast), “Salman Rushdie is not who you think he is”, 26 April 2024: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/26/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-salman-rushdie.html

In the third episode of a mini-series on international order, Darren is joined by Amy King, an Associate Professor at the Australian National University, to discuss China. It is now cliché to say that China is having a major impact on the current order and its trajectory, but there is little agreement on what that impact is and how far it might go.
Darren has taken a keen interest in this question in his academic research, co-authoring a paper titled “China and the logic of illiberal hegemony” with John Ikenberry that was published in 2023. The journal’s editors subsequently invited two scholars to write critiques, one of those being Amy King.  
Darren opens by seeking Amy’s views on whether the “post-Cold War order” is a useful starting point to discuss China’s influence, and whether she agrees with US Secretary of State Blinken that that this particular order is at an end. They then turn to Darren’s paper, with Darren describing his model of “illiberal hegemony”, where China’s approach to order-building is partially extrapolated from its domestic models of political order and economic organisation. Amy has multiple disagreements both with the model and its implications, which makes for an engaging back-and-forth.
This is another long and wonkish conversation, but returns continuously to practical questions, such what Australian diplomats might say when defending the (old) order to their colleagues across the region.
Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Corbin Duncan and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.
Relevant links
Amy King (bio): https://amykingonline.com/
Darren Lim and John Ikenberry, “China and the logic of illiberal hegemony”, Security Studies: (ungated) https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4244377  || (gated) https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09636412.2023.2178963
Amy King, “The Collective Logic of (Chinese) Hegemonic Order”, Security Studies: (ungated) https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09636412.2023.2253148
Matthew Stephen, “China and the Limits of Hypothetical Hegemony”, Security Studies: (ungated) https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09636412.2023.2259801
Darren Lim and John Ikenberry, “China and Hegemony: An Exchange – The Authors Reply”, Security Studies (gated, contact Darren for a copy): https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09636412.2023.2252735
Richard Flanagan, “Question 7” (novel): https://www.penguin.com.au/books/question-7-9781761343452
Sam Sachdeva, “The China tightrope: Navigating New Zealand's relationship with a world superpower: https://www.allenandunwin.co.nz/browse/book/Sam-Sachdeva-China-Tightrope-9781991006172/