What’s the DEIL?

THE NORFUS FIRM
What’s the DEIL?

“What’s the DEIL?” is a podcast for organizational leaders - and those who support them - as they make their way along their DEI journey. We explore how leaders can create space for authentic human connection through the lens of DEI. In this podcast, we discuss real and relevant work issues in a way that centers people and challenges leaders to go above and beyond in their efforts to improve workplace culture. We know you’re busy - so we focus on practical strategies and solid practices that improve employee engagement, retention and impact. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

  1. 3 JUN

    Leadership in the Middle: Coaching for Culture Keepers

    Middle managers are the unsung heroes of the modern workplace. They’re the bridge between vision and execution, strategy and people, senior leadership and front-line teams. But they’re also the most overlooked when it comes to meaningful development and support. In this episode of What’s the DEIL? Shanté and Natalie delve into why middle managers are the culture keepers and why investing in them is crucial to an organization's health, retention, and long-term performance. From the unique challenges middle managers face to the pressure they absorb from both directions, we explore the importance of coaching, training, and development in making these roles sustainable. We also offer practical solutions, scalable coaching models, and a call for HR and executive leaders to stop thrusting people into leadership without providing them with the tools to succeed. What You’ll Learn in This Episode: Why middle managers are the “pressure cookers” of your organizationHow senior leaders often misunderstand the lived experience of mid-level leadershipWhat happens when you promote people into management without equipping themHow coaching (not just training) is the key to unlocking leadership at scaleThe ROI of supporting middle managers, not just in morale, but in outcomesWhy culture assessments should include a deep look at manager feedbackTools like Cloverleaf that scale coaching organization-wideThe difference between leadership theory and actual day-to-day executionKey Takeaways: Middle managers carry more than task lists; they carry culture. And if they don’t feel supported or trained, you’ll feel it in engagement, productivity, and turnover.Leadership development can’t be a one-time workshop. It must be continuous, embedded, and responsive to the evolving demands of the workplace.Coaching is scalable. From one-on-one executive support to digital tools and group coaching sessions, there are ways to bring coaching into every level of the business.Stop confusing technical excellence with managerial readiness. Just because someone is great at their job doesn’t mean they know how to lead people. Invest in that transition.Avoid the “nasty nice” culture. If people aren’t telling the truth or sharing challenges, your culture will never grow and your middle managers will drown silently. Follow & Connect with us: Follow Natalie Norfus on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natalienorfus/. Follow Shante Gordon on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shantegordon/. We’ve led hundreds of audits, assessments, and people strategy engagements and we’d love to help your organization. Book a consultation with The Norfus Firm: https://thenorfusfirm.com/. Follow What’s the DEIL on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/whatsthedeil/. Follow What’s the DEIL on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@whatsthedeil. If you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and leave a review! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    18 min
  2. 3 JUN

    Preventing Conflict Before It Starts

    Preventing Conflict Before It StartsConflict at work isn’t the enemy—avoiding it is. In this episode of What’s the DEIL?, Shanté and Natalie tackle one of the most misunderstood dynamics in leadership and workplace culture: conflict. Not the explosive kind we all dread but the slow-simmering tension that starts with a side-eye in a Slack message or a disengaged team member and ends in resignation letters, HR investigations, or boardroom complaints. This conversation challenges the notion that all conflict is inherently bad and instead reframes it as inevitable and manageable if identified and addressed early. The goal? Spot issues before they erupt and build a workplace where healthy disagreement drives performance, not dysfunction. What You’ll Learn:Why conflict isn’t inherently negative and how judgment makes it worseWhat it really costs your organization when conflict is left unchecked (hint: it’s more than money)The early warning signs that tension is brewing under the surfaceWhy disengagement is a red flag, not just a phaseSelf-awareness is the leadership skill that unlocks conflict preventionWhat toxic management styles actually do to workplace culture (with real examples)Practical tools for inclusive leaders to lead and lean into conflict before it’s too lateThe underrated power of community agreements like “assume good intent”This episode also explores what happens when leaders aren’t equipped to manage feedback and how their blind spots create ripple effects across an entire team. If your people don’t feel safe speaking up, your culture is already in trouble, and you might be the last to know. Related Topics:Psychological safety and its absence in the workplaceWhy “I’m just direct” isn’t a leadership strategyHow to spot disengagement before it turns into attritionWhat inclusive leadership actually looks like in tense momentsWhether you’re an HR leader, executive, team manager, or just trying to navigate tough work dynamics, this episode will challenge you to stop seeing conflict as a fire to put out and instead as a signal to lead better. Follow & Connect with us: Follow Natalie Norfus on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natalienorfus/. Follow Shante Gordon on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shantegordon/. We’ve led hundreds of audits, assessments, and people strategy engagements, and we’d love to help your organization. Book a consultation with The Norfus Firm: https://thenorfusfirm.com/. Follow What’s the DEIL on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/whatsthedeil/. Follow What’s the DEIL on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@whatsthedeil. If you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and leave a review! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    27 min
  3. 27 MAY

    The Real ROI of Coaching-Centered Leadership

    In this episode of What’s the DEIL? Natalie and Shanté dive deep into the true power and misunderstood value of coaching in the workplace. Not performance management coaching. Not “fix your attitude or lose your job” coaching. We’re talking about real, development-focused, coaching-centered leadership that can transform your entire culture from the inside out. Too often, coaching is treated as an executive luxury or a last-ditch effort to salvage problematic leaders. But what if coaching wasn’t just for the C-suite or crisis? What if it was a foundational leadership tool applied across all levels of your organization? In this episode, we explore: The real definition of coaching and how it’s distinct from advising, managing, or “correcting.”Why coaching should not be reserved only for executives and how restricting it actually reinforces inequity.The pitfalls of punitive coaching: why bringing in a coach post-investigation (as damage control) is often too little, too late.Why culture matters: without a feedback-friendly workplace, coaching initiatives can fail before they start.What it really means to be coachable and how organizations can assess if someone’s truly ready for growth.How coaching directly ties into inclusion, belonging, and DEI strategy, not as a checkbox, but as a relationship-driven catalyst for real change.The measurable ROI of coaching from reduced turnover and improved engagement to fewer conflicts and better decision-making.The steps to build a coaching culture that doesn’t rely on hierarchy, perks, or performance reviews to unlock someone’s potential.Whether you’re a CEO, a people leader, or someone leading quietly in the background (we see you, Stephanie!), this episode will challenge your assumptions about who gets to grow—and why coaching might be one of the most underutilized tools in your culture toolbox. Key Takeaways:Leadership is not a title. It’s behavior and it exists at every level of your org.Coaching is a mirror. It’s about helping people see themselves, own their choices, and lead with clarity.The ROI is real. Reduced attrition, more trust, better collaboration, and a culture where people actually want to stay.DEI is embedded. True coaching acknowledges identity, background, and belonging.Ready to rethink how leadership is developed in your org? Want to create a coaching culture that’s inclusive, strategic, and scalable? Reach out to us below. Follow & Connect with us: Follow Natalie Norfus on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natalienorfus/. Follow Shante Gordon on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shantegordon/. We’ve led hundreds of audits, assessments, and people strategy engagements and we’d love to help your organization. Book a consultation with The Norfus Firm: https://thenorfusfirm.com/. Follow What’s the DEIL on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/whatsthedeil/. Follow What’s the DEIL on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@whatsthedeil. If you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and leave a review! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    33 min
  4. 13 MAY

    Audit the Work, Not Just the Words: When DEI is Optics-Only

    In this episode of What’s the DEIL? Shanté and Natalie break down the difference between performative DEI and actual, lawful, impactful action. With anti-DEI rhetoric making headlines and fear running high across corporate America, this episode offers a practical, clear-eyed path forward for organizations who are feeling the pressure to “do something” but aren’t quite sure what. Rather than reacting to political panic or folding to fear-based headlines, the hosts advocate for a proactive approach: a comprehensive workplace audit to ensure your people practices are legally compliant, inclusive in reality (not just in branding), and truly aligned with your company’s values. Here’s what we cover: Why so many DEI efforts have been reduced to performative gesturesThe difference between assessments (proactive) and audits (reactive) and why both matterWhat’s really behind today’s culture of fear around DEI programsThe legal framework you should be focused on. Hint: Title VII still mattersWhy some leaders are unknowingly putting themselves at legal riskHow to build workplace culture initiatives that are inclusive, strategic, and sustainableWhat your audit should include, from pay equity to promotion pathways to trainingWhy internal messaging needs to match external narrative (and how misalignment can backfire)Plus, we unpack: Why your DEI statements shouldn’t say more than your actions can proveThe number one workplace culture issue that everyone (yes, everyone) facesHow fear leads organizations to make decisions that aren’t in their own best interestWhat success looks like when DEI is embedded, not bolted onWhether you’re a CHRO, DEI lead, general counsel, or senior executive just trying to do the right thing, this episode is your blueprint for how to move from optics to integrity. Bottom line: Your DEI work shouldn’t just sound good. It should be good and legal. Auditing your practices is how you find out if you’re walking the talk. Follow & Connect with us: Follow Natalie Norfus on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natalienorfus/. Follow Shante Gordon on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shantegordon/. We’ve led hundreds of audits, assessments, and people strategy engagements and we’d love to help your organization. Book a consultation with The Norfus Firm: https://thenorfusfirm.com/. Follow What’s the DEIL on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/whatsthedeil/. Follow What’s the DEIL on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@whatsthedeil. If you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and leave a review! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    30 min
  5. 6 MAY

    Mirror, Mirror: Why Your Workplace Culture Assessment Isn’t Optional

    In this episode of What’s the DEIL?, Natalie and Shanté are pulling back the curtain on one of the most overlooked but essential tools in your leadership toolbox: the workplace culture assessment. Think employee engagement surveys are enough? Think again. The workplace and the world has shifted dramatically. What worked in 2019 won’t cut it in 2025. Your culture assessment can’t just be a box you check; it has to be a mirror reflecting your employees’ lived realities, otherwise, what’s the point? In this episode, we cover: What a workplace culture assessment actually is and what it’s notWhy getting a “score” isn’t nearly as useful as you think (hint: context matters more than a number)How to stop comparing yourself to competitors and start competing with your own progressWhy assessments are only as valuable as your action especially if you haven’t followed up on the last oneWhat leaders need to ask themselves before even launching a surveyThe ego check every executive needs to hear when interpreting feedbackHow to read the room, ask the right questions, and connect better with your peoplePlus: A sealed envelope story you won’t believe, the dangers of survey overload, and what makes someone truly qualified to lead people. Natalie and Shanté also walk through a clear, practical assessment process, from design to analysis to (you guessed it) actually doing something with the data, and why most companies fall short in the final stretch. Key takeaway? If your employees don’t feel heard, valued, or supported, you’re not just missing the mark on DEI, you’re leaving real business outcomes on the table. And no, you can’t fix it with a gold star or a ranking badge. Want to know where your culture really stands? Start by asking and be ready to listen, learn, and lead differently. Follow & Connect with us: Follow Natalie Norfus on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natalienorfus/. Follow Shante Gordon on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shantegordon/. Book a consultation with The Norfus Firm: https://thenorfusfirm.com/. Follow What’s the DEIL on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/whatsthedeil/. Follow What’s the DEIL on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@whatsthedeil. If you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and leave a review! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    30 min
  6. 29 APR

    Beyond Bubble Baths: Real Wellness Strategies for Real-World Employees

    In this episode, Natalie and Shanté take a hard look at what wellness in the workplace really means in 2025. Spoiler: it’s not bubble baths, yoga sessions, or sporadic wellness emails. It’s about addressing the real stressors employees face daily and rethinking what effective workplace wellness looks like — beyond surface-level perks. Episode Highlights: Wellness Fatigue is Real: Employers rushed to implement wellness programs post-2020, but many initiatives felt like one-off tactics rather than part of a meaningful strategy. Yoga sessions and mobile barbers are great, but are they actually meeting employee needs? Natalie and Shanté break down why so many wellness programs missed the mark. 35% Productivity Drop from Chronic Stress: Shanté shares a striking stat: workers dealing with chronic stress or trauma can experience up to a 35% decrease in productivity. In today’s world of non-stop news cycles, layoffs, and global uncertainty, understanding the link between wellbeing and performance is non-negotiable. The Employer’s Real Role in Employee Wellbeing: Let’s be clear: employers are not responsible for fixing every employee’s life. But they are responsible for creating psychologically safe workplaces and realistic workloads. If people feel overwhelmed, unsupported, or uncertain about expectations, productivity and morale will plummet. Stop Playing Wellness Darts: Throwing random perks at employees and hoping they stick is not a strategy. Wellness needs to be operationalized and integrated into the flow of work itself — not treated as an add-on or afterthought. Key Takeaways: Focus your wellness strategy on what employees need to be well at work, not outside of it.Prioritize psychological safety and manageable workloads as your main contributions to employee wellbeing.Be honest and transparent about workplace realities. Trust is foundational.Check in with your people regularly and act on their feedback — not just for engagement scores, but for real improvement.Skip the fluff and build meaningful, sustainable practices reflecting your workplace culture.Favorite Quote of the Episode:  “If you don’t consider people’s humanity, we’ll keep getting headlines of people getting laid off. And if you think your people aren’t enough to drive your business goals, you’ve already lost.” — Natalie Norfus Follow & Connect with us: Follow Natalie Norfus on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natalienorfus/. Follow Shante Gordon on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shantegordon/. Book a consultation with The Norfus Firm: https://thenorfusfirm.com/. Follow What’s the DEIL on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/whatsthedeil/. Follow What’s the DEIL on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@whatsthedeil. If you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and leave a review! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    20 min
  7. 23 APR

    Wellness Is More Than a Webinar: Lessons from 2020, Needs in 2025

    In this episode of What’s the DEIL?, Natalie and Shanté unpack the evolution of workplace wellness — from the pandemic-fueled rush of 2020 to the complex realities of 2025. Spoiler alert: your occasional meditation webinar or EAP reminder isn’t cutting it. As the weight of today’s world presses harder — with unrelenting news cycles, social tensions, and workplace uncertainty — employees carry more than just their workloads. Natalie and Shanté share candid stories, real client examples, and hard-won insights into why “wellness” can no longer be an afterthought or a surface-level initiative. In this episode, they dive into: Why avoidance isn’t an option: In today’s climate, stress and overwhelm find us no matter how much we try to disconnect. Leaders can’t ignore it. The band-aid era of wellness (and why it failed): Remember those one-off yoga classes, pop-up meditation apps, and random wellness perks? Yeah, employees do too — and they saw right through it. Short-sighted strategies vs. intentional programs: Quick fixes aren’t enough. Employees crave meaningful, well-thought-out initiatives grounded in genuine care and consistency. Trust and Transparency: Wellness efforts fall flat when leaders don’t clearly communicate intent, purpose, or outcomes. If you’re asking employees what they need, be ready to act. The patience factor: Building a sustainable culture of wellness takes time. Like a great party, it doesn’t hit capacity on day one. Wellness will look different in 2025. What worked in 2020 doesn’t necessarily fit today’s challenges. Wellness must evolve alongside employee needs, workplace dynamics, and societal shifts. Honesty is wellness: If you can’t properly resource wellness, be transparent. Employees value clarity over empty gestures. Employers aren’t saviors (and that’s okay): You don’t have to be all things to everyone. Define your role clearly, and manage expectations authentically.  Key Takeaways: ✔️ Wellness is no longer a “nice to have” — it’s essential to sustaining your workforce in turbulent times. ✔️ Consistency and clarity build trust. Flashy programs with no follow-through break it. ✔️ Understand your employees’ realities. Use data, but only if you’re committed to meaningful action. ✔️ Focus on humanity over hollow perks. Show you care through real, tangible efforts. ✔️ You can’t solve everything, but you can be clear about what you will do. Quote of the Episode: “2025 feels like it needs to be the year of humanity. If you don’t care, don’t ask.” — Natalie Norfus Follow & Connect with us: Follow Natalie Norfus on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natalienorfus/. Follow Shante Gordon on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shantegordon/. Book a consultation with The Norfus Firm: https://thenorfusfirm.com/. Follow What’s the DEIL on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/whatsthedeil/. Follow What’s the DEIL on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@whatsthedeil. If you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and leave a review! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    26 min
  8. 15 APR

    Beyond ‘Keep It Professional’: How to Prepare for Charged Conversations at Work

    Just keeping it professional doesn’t cut it anymore. In this episode of What’s the DEIL?, Natalie Norfus and Shanté Gordon continue the conversation from their last episode, moving from the “why” to the “how” of handling unavoidable political and sensitive conversations in the workplace. Natalie and Shanté acknowledge the new reality: everything feels political in 2025. Issues of identity, safety, livelihood, and belonging have all become part of the workplace experience. Leaders and employers can no longer rely on outdated best practices like “no politics at work.” The truth? Conversations are happening whether you allow them or not. The real question is: How do you create a container for these conversations that supports your people and protects your culture? Spoiler: It starts with clarity, continues with training, and succeeds through intentional action. In this episode, we explore: Key Takeaways: • Avoidance isn’t a strategy. Conversations about politics and identity are already happening. Ignoring them won’t make them disappear — but intentional structure can prevent chaos. • Your managers are on the front lines. Without proper tools, they’ll feel stuck in the middle. Train and empower them, so they don’t feel like they’re set up to fail. • If you create spaces for dialogue, do it well. Vague sessions with no clear outcome erode trust. Clarity and professional facilitation are non-negotiable. • Concerns need a clear home. Without clear escalation paths, problems will explode in ways you can’t control. Make sure employees know exactly where to go — and follow up. • Leadership stamina matters. Brace yourself: more issues are coming. Build resilience, focus on what you can control, and don’t take it personally. 🎙️ Natalie & Shanté’s Advice: Set the standard. Train your managers. Create spaces intentionally. Handle feedback like a pro. You’ll save yourself (and your team) time, stress, and plenty of future headaches. Follow & Connect with us: Follow Natalie Norfus on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natalienorfus/. Follow Shante Gordon on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shantegordon/. Book a consultation with The Norfus Firm: https://thenorfusfirm.com/. Follow What’s the DEIL on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/whatsthedeil/. Follow What’s the DEIL on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@whatsthedeil. If you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and leave a review! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    32 min

About

“What’s the DEIL?” is a podcast for organizational leaders - and those who support them - as they make their way along their DEI journey. We explore how leaders can create space for authentic human connection through the lens of DEI. In this podcast, we discuss real and relevant work issues in a way that centers people and challenges leaders to go above and beyond in their efforts to improve workplace culture. We know you’re busy - so we focus on practical strategies and solid practices that improve employee engagement, retention and impact. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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