Imperfect Mens Club Mark Aylward & Jim Gurule

Mark introduces the topic - apologizing. He says too many people are apologizing too often
Mark reads the definition
Jim counters with thinking it’s a trigger for him. He brings up a conversation he just had with a 30 something and how he said he was sorry over and over…to the point that it was totally inauthentic
He was regretting things he said and did
Mark agrees about authenticity being critical. He says too many people apologize for offending groups
Jim says “This not an excuse, it’s an explanation”. I’d like to explain what happened
The difference between an apology and an explanation
Mark says context is missing from conversation
Jim says you should save apologies for when you really mean them. When you’ve reflected and given thought to what you may have said or done
Mark says if the apology doesn’t feel difficult, then don’t do it. It needs to feel difficult
Jim ponders when to accept or not accept an apology. He is anticipating a call later today with a friend who is in an overwhelming state. This guy says sorry too much and Jim wonders whether to confront his friend or not. He wonders if h should let his friend “get away with it
Mark says it’s important to start off conversation on a positive note and then get candid, but with kindness
It’s approach and timing
Mark rereads the definition of apology. Definition number 3…excuses
Jim thinks apology is different than an explanation and different than an excuse
Jim appreciates when people take responsibility and also consider how to keep this same thing from happening again. An opportunity to get better
People that say sorry all the time are dangerous. Our word is everything. Our integrity
Jim thinks social media and technology have made communication m ore difficult…ironically
Mark talks about how many words have lost their meaning. Racism and Nazi and sorry
Jim recounts a Father’s Day event about the racism comment. He says,” tell me what you think that means”. Both guys agree that we need to be more careful with words and make sure both parties agree on the meaning of words before discussing them
Mark brings up patriarchy as another word being abused
Jim adds the word “literally’. Mark agrees it’s a “filler” word, unnecessary and irrelevant
He adds the accountability that’s missing in communication. You have to call out these abusers of words
Mark brings up the phrase “toxic masculinity” and how people want apologies for this too. Mark says “fuck that”
Mark talks about people in the public domain who are forced to apologize
Jim asks Mark to look up “dignity” and the guys both agree that apologizing without authenticity forces someone to give up his dignity
Mark brings up the leadership training he’s doing now and how much of an issue this apology thing is in corporate America. Jim agrees
Mark suggests that the person on the receiving end of the apology needs to call out inauthentic apology
Jim says there are situations when you just have to remain quiet or you’ll get “kicked out of the club”
Mark says it’s important to pick your spots. What am I going to gain from calling someone out?  You gotta read the room and you have to maintain your integrity
Give some thought to what you are trying to accomplish. Be authentic and work toward some type of benefit or progress
Jim says sometimes it’s tough to balance authenticity with empathy
Mark talks about people misinterpreting him and then brings up the exception of his two daughters. Jim calls him on it they have a laugh
Jim brings back up the importance of the meaning of words. Both guys agree that clarifying what a word or topic means before discussing it is critical for clarity
Mark goes back to his daughters and uses the word feminism as an example
Jim says the meaning of words can be generational. Mark agrees there is nuance to the meaning of certain words
Mark brings up Juneteenth and both guys have fun making f

Mark introduces the topic of self doubt
He places it in health/mental health category on the wheel
Mark talks about waking up “awash” in self doubt yesterday and he wrote about it to help pull him out of it
First he went through with his morning routine and was still bummed out..so he wrote about it
Jim says self doubt is normal and anyone who doesn’t get it every so often isn’t striving
Jim talks about how middle age produces doubts about what might have been
Jim shares his bout with depression and then brings in the wheel and how self doubt touches all areas of life
Mark says it can be event driven and he mentions his divorce and brings up other circumstances
Jim connects self worth to self doubt
The guys talk about moving on…moving past it
Mark brings up sports and aging
Jim mentions how players become coaches to keep getting that dopamine hit
Jim says leaving a company has the same impact
Mark brings up empty nest syndrome and then identifies his solution is internal. Looking inside and not focusing on external circumstances
Jim says that you can’t care too much about what other people say
Mark talks about learning how to be humble and the rebuilding that can take place if you choose it
Jim says in order to be human you to have humility…then you can serve others with empathy and compassion. These are better humans
Mark talks about judging people by the way they present outwardly. He mentions the PGA pro that recently killed himself
A lot of people who are miserable, present as happy
Mark says we see 2 things in the media…tragedy and overbite success. We never see the striving. The work
Jim’s quote “I wish my enemies all their success”. Because is you achieve major success, you have sacrificed a lot. Everything has a price
Success can be lonely
Mark tells his father’s Navy wings story. WTF do I do now
Same thing as retirement - want to stop using that term. It’s negative instead of…what’s the next awesome thing
Jim brings up “rebranding”. More possible than ever before. Technology and coaching
Rebranding is a total choice
Mark brings back up empty nest. Jim says he didn’t experience that. Everyone experiences this differently
Mark talks about his unique experience being both mom and dad…he didn’t see it coming
Mark says self doubt is the absence of self worth
Jim brings up ego. You have to put ego aside and that’s not easy.  Being alone…no more feedback
Mark wonders why Jim didn’t feel the empty nest
Mark explains how he forgave himself and how freeing it was. If God forgives, why can’t we forgive ourselves
Jim talks about the self - words
Mark reads the definitions of self doubt and self compassionate
Mark talks about looking inward and not comparing to others…misery
Jim says happiness is overrated. Being fulfilled is better
Learning new things and striving to be better is the way to go
Mark suggests taking your new found humility…turning it into empathy and reaching out to help
Timing has to align in order to be well received with your offer of help
Jim summarizes his position on "recalibrating the soul"

Mark introduces the topic of thought leadership and connects it directly with critical thinking
He reads the Wikipedia definition and then connects it to the profession area in our flywheel
Mark says anyone who self identifies as such is not a thought leader. The market needs to determine that
Jim jumps in and brings up Jordan Peterson. He then connects back to our flywheel and the other 4 areas of life
Jim then brings up AI and the timeliness of our topic
He differentiates between “Big” and “Small” AI. He suggests people will be increasingly creating small customized AI’s for different use cases
Mark expresses some doubts about AI because on the back end is a human with bias
Mark brings Jordan Peterson back up
Jim brings up Joe Rogan and the View
Mark says he thinks to be a thought leader you have to also be a critical thinker. He wonders if people are being thoughtful and unbiased in their responses or are they simply emoting?
Mark brings up Bill Maher
Jim supports that Jordan Peterson is credentialed and experience in various sciences and topics. He separates the View as a business…entertainment
Mark gos a bit deeper into Peterson varied area of expertise
Jim recalls his live experience with Jordan and how diverse the audience was
Mark brings up JP’s son and daughter
He thinks JP was never intending to be rich or famous and he struggled with fame for a time
Jim brings up Joe Biden and Mark shares his opinion:). Neither has much respect for Joe
Mark suggests that perhaps all thought leaders are polarizing at some level. He goes on to add to what makes a real thought leader and Jim agrees
Mark mentions Martin Luther King and Ghandi
Jim asks Mark for examples oh thought leaders who grew fast and then bottomed out and disappeared. Mark shares a couple of examples but can’t remember names
Then Jim mentions Tony Robbins and Mark shares his opinion that he thinks TR is authentic but only for a certain audience (very troubled people)
The guys explore the cult like nature of TR’s tribe and then suggest there is perhaps cult like vibes to all thought leader followers.  His rugby teams, for instance
The guys joke about “self proclaimed” thought leaders versus authentic thought leaders
Jim suggests that they all are narcissistic to some degree
Mark brings up Jim’s evolution from shy and reticent to engage to feeling lost obligated to share. Jim appreciates and expands. We have an obligation to share what we know that can help
They talk about the risk of sharing and exposing yourself to criticism
Jim reflects on his sales career and feels that everything is about persuasion
The evolution is largely based on the accumulation of expertise over time and confidence
Jim warns of the abuse of the power of persuasion
Mark chimes in with the abuses of power
He goes on to agree and then brings up celebrities and Robert Dinero…
Mark says real friends call bullshit on ego players like Dinero
Jim says it’s not what you say as much as what you do. Great leaders model. Like fathers
Jim tells his story about his Japanese assistant and Japanese leadership culture which promotes leadership by action and modeling
Mark brings JP back into the discussion and talks about how he walks his talk
Thought leaders do what they say
Jim tells a story about his friend who adds that people will see how people react to you…something you’ll never see. Mark recalls that good friends do that too…tell you how people react to you
Mark says if you have the ability to help others you are obligated to do so
Jim adds being careful about offering unsolicited advice and he says he’s pulled back
Mark talks about learning how to not conclude, but to observe…discernment
Jim shares his experience last night at a conference where he saw people who were so busy and overwhelmed that they can’t focus on the moment and/or are hypersensitive and teed up
Mark brings up his inner work with SOS and spiritual

Mark introduces episode 52 to finish off season 2!
A milestone for the guys. Trying to get the message out to more people
Today’s topic is critical thinking.   Mark says we’re lacking in critical thinking as a result of a lack of self awareness
Mark reads the definition from Wikipedia. He likes the one term “unbiased”
Jim jumps in with our flywheel and the 5 areas of life on it
Jim brings up Trump’s convictions
Jim says there aren’t many real critical thinkers and we don’t teach that skill. He suggests that being dyslexic makes him think critical
Mark gives his dad credit for telling him to question everything and Jim calls it a gift
The guys both believe you can respect processes and rules and laws and still question everything
Mark brings up science and climate change - nothing has been decided. Science is discovery
Jim says critical thinking makes us better as people - Our goal for IMC - help people get better
Jim shares his infographic about the factors that go into critical thinking
 
Research
Listening
Explanation
Flexibility
Fairness
Objectivity
Evaluation
Analysis
 
Mark identifies the major differences between critical and non critical thinking. He says listening is perhaps the most important of them all
Jim looks for win/win outcomes. What does success look like?
Marks cites the meaning of words and how we bastardize the language and words
Mark says biases are normal but we can put them aside and remain open to learning something new
Jim likes to approach new conversations with “what can I learn?”
Mark says it virtually impossible to know everything about any topic, so flexibility is important
Both guys are a bit mixed on the word “fairness”. What does it mean and who determines what’s fair. Mark says fairness is the journey but not the destination
Jim expresses his distaste for DEI. Mark agrees and thinks it’s going away
Both guys talk about sports in regard to DEI.  Jim tells a story about a big conference he attended last week. He loved the conference but didn’t like all the groups people were divided into. Why do we have to separate people into groups?  It’s the opposite of inclusive. The worst of elitism.
Mark brings up victimhood. You can’t think critically if you play victim
Mark brings up Pride month and how stupid it is
Jim brings up “the first” and how it should be the best…the first is unnecessary
Mark claims that critical thinking starts all the other dominoes falling. It fixes everything over time
Jim asks if Mark believes people are “Objective”?  He says no, but can continuously move back to objectivity. It’s a journey
Jim quotes - To get what you want, give people what they want. You don’t need to get what you want by taking from someone
Mark tells and Dennis Prager tale about marriage and arguments. He says bringing generosity to conversations is effective
Sports come up again and both guys share reflections on winning and losing and how you look at things. How you respond to them. Jim talks rugby
Mark bundles analysis, research and evaluation together. Jim separates them out
Mark says it’s fine to have an opinion…as long as you claim it as such…not a fact…how I feel
Jim says “throw some math at it”
Jim brings up the data/math on black men being killed by white police officers. There is no math to support it. We often decide how we feel and see out numbers to support our opinions
Mark says we need more context and less speculation. He also brings up climate change and “river to the sea”. Do your homework
Jim. mentions the suicide rate of men and the isolation of young men. It’s our mission to help men talk about these difficult things
Mark challenges the audience to a debate
Jim cites the value of facts, data and math. He cites neurodiversity rates in incarcerated men
Mark says there are too many facts used that aren’t actually facts
Mark says the media values being first over bei

Mark opens his intro with the guys topic of choice for today- Resistance
Jim’s traveling and is in Mexico City.  He had some typical travel resistance issues and both guys ran with that and piled on
One caveat is Jim’s sound quality is diminished, but he can be heard just fine
Mark brings up the flywheel and the book Jim brought up, Steven Pressfield’s “The War Of Art”
Mark says he thinks resistance is mostly good with exception of dangerous things and that mitigating risk is a goo idea before just jumping up and pushing back on any and all resistance
Marks bring in his “pause” approach to regain objectivity and context before jumping in
Jim jumps in and refers back to the book and expands on it’s message - “The enemy of creativity is resistance”. Jim says that in his mind resistance is a sign of progress, but it’s hard to know when its progress or danger.
Jim then shares his travel story - Mexico City and the resistance from the line at the airpot to the hotel and then the Uber experience…3 different drivers and the wrong addresses. He asked himself if maybe these were signs that he should consider doing something else.  He made the best of it
Mark then tells his Fringe Festival stand-up experience. It wasn’t his vibe but he wanted to support his girlfriend. He shares that relationships bump up against resistance. Compromise and the “20 minute rule”
Jim asks Mark to talk more about “risk” and Mark shares his experience starting his own company.  He puts this in context. He brings up his “pause” technique and put’s in some additional context
Jim shares his opinion on pivoting in the face of resistance. Mark agrees and expands
Jim says timing is a big deal in life and how to tell if its the right time or not. Mark agrees
Jim speaks about decisions versus choices. What’s the difference?
Mark shares his interaction with his son about his meditation. About how he chose to react versus how he might have 10 years ago
Jim replays with his hotel noise experience and reaction. Don’t let it get into your head. And once again its about how you respond.  Jim turned it into a nice lunch and a few beers
Mark goes back to his stand-up experience from the day before and how he was able to turn it around with the help of his girlfriend and a 7 minute conversation - a new perspective
Both guys agree that resistance is everywhere, all the time and they talk a bit about the different types
Mark brings up the 5 key areas of life and the flywheel.  Resistance is in all 5 areas
Jim say traveling is an exercise in handling your response to resistance
The guys reflect on The US versus other countries. They differ a bit about this and that’s a bit interesting
Jim says it’s often challenging to find people to help with communication and how h appreciates people who can speak English as a second language
This leads to our current division and how that’s created different languages within our own language
Mark shares how appreciative people are of trying to the speak the native language of the country you’re in
Then he moves into his public speaking
They wrap it up. Jim’s going to Chicago before returning home

Mark introduces the topic of manifestation and the power of the subconscious mind.  Then he brings up the wheel and attaches manifestation to health - mental health
Jim had introduced Dr James Doty having heard him on Lewis Howe’s podcast Mark reads from the show notes to give context to what the guys are about to discuss. Mark mentions the work he’s been doing and throws it to Jim
Jim mentions that he’s been reading and studying about manifestation for years. He talks about adversity and how it’s how you react to it that matters
Jim brings up the wheel and self awareness and lays out the 5 areas of life on our wheel
He references our past and then shares Dr Doty’s past traumas and how he overcame them. Doty mentions a billionaire he met who wasn’t happy in spite of his wealth. Your success doesn’t necessarily make you happy
Mark brings up what the podcast is all about. A forum for men to talk about things they don’t normally talk about
Mark says there’s an interesting balance between fortitude and sharing emotions
He discusses his current program and the picture of him as a 5 year old - see that kid. You are still that kid
Mark then goes into the past and Jim runs with it. We need to figure out how to process the trauma from our past in order to move on
Jim brings up our vibrational influence on the world and others
Mark tells his yoga/vibrational bowls - energy reading
Jim gives context to the vibrations we can put out. That can be good or bad
Jim says happiness should not be the goal. It should be fulfillment. The distinction between happiness, pleasure, joy, service, etc…
Mark says we misuse words like happy and crazy - what do they really mean
Jim shares another point Dr Doty spoke of. We can live in the past, present or future
The present is the goal
Jim shares his dyslexia story and how it shaped his aggressive behavior. He became self aware and has worked on it successfully
Mark shares his visualization practice and some successes that have come from it. Jim compliments Mark and gives him credit for his work and consistency
Jim goes deeper into how he uses manifestation as an inventor
He tells his patent story in the context of vibrations
Mark brings back up Jim’s past, present and future comment and gets into detail about how important processing trauma is - his anger at his ex-wife and his parents “scarcity” vibe as Depression kids
Mark mentions our sage and saboteur  The sage would see the great things that came from his divorce. He the talks about worrying about what might happen in the future and how 90% of the things he worried about never happen
Jim brings up his bitter or better concept. He sees a lot of people in pain, projecting that pain in to the world   The victim mentality and the negative vibrations that creates
Jim thinks we can help shift that pain to positivity.  Marl appreciates his ability to shift people in a better direction
Both guys agree that sometimes you hold people accountable to their negativity and sometimes you don’t. You gotta pick your spots
Jim brings up politics and suggests that talking about it without using names. Not personalizing political discussion. Positive progress can be made. Self awareness comes into play again and questions are great tools to keep discussions civil
Questions are disarming and make people think. Add positive energy and it’s magical
Great leaders create hope for the future vibrationally
Jim asks Mark to remember what moments he was able to vibrate out positivity and change the outcome of a situation
Mark brings up some sports memories and Jim jumps in
Mark shares his Sept 11 work story - how he dismissed his staff for the day and shifted the emotion in the room
Jim shares a story about his friends loss and then his rugby national championship story. He played against doctors orders and raised the energy of his whole team leading to a victory
Mark remembers a Larry Bird and Willis Reed stor