Beyond the Page Josh Olds

Matt Mikalatos is one of my favorite people that I’ve never met in person. His online presence exudes love and he’s always kind, but that doesn’t mean he’s a pushover or lacks conviction. While most social media spaces can be toxic, Mikalatos has created a great space for dialogue and Loving Disagreement. Listen in as Josh and Matt talk about how to disagree and how to move ahead united despite disagreements.

The Conversation | Matt Mikalatos and Josh Olds

This transcript excerpt has been lightly edited for content and clarity.

Josh: So how exactly did this project come about?

Matt: So my one of my publishers, which is NavPress—who I had done two books with previously—reached out to me and said, “We are looking to do a book about kind of how Christians can get along when we disagree. And we’ve watched the way you interact on social media…” Which, particularly on Facebook, I have a diverse friend group. So Christians, non Christians, people on various political sides, US are international. And we talk about pretty thorny things sometimes. And people generally have been trained to be kind to each other as we disagree.

And they said, “What if you cowrote it with someone?” And I said, “Well, that would be interesting. Like, we could actually model some of these things maybe.” And they said, “Well, it’d be great if it was someone like this woman, Kathy Khang”—who is a Korean American naturalized citizen in the US, obviously has a very different experience than me. I happen to know Kathy, she’s a dear friend of mine. I reached out to Kathy and asked if she would be up for writing the book with me. And she said yes. Which I was delighted to discover, because I thought she would say no. And that’s how we got started. We basically pitch to the publisher, what if we did a book about the fruit of the Spirit—that when we’re in disagreement, we’re supposed to be showing things like love, joy, kindness, peace, gentleness, those things, which is a much more difficult thing than just civility.

The Book | Loving Disagreement by Matt Mikalatos and Kathy Khang

What does it look like to love someone you disagree with?

Fighting, disagreements, hatred, dissension, and silence. These things seem common in the wider Christian community today. Politics, theology, and even personal preference create seemingly insurmountable rifts. It’s hard not to see ourselves as “at war” with each other.

We’re not doomed to be stuck here, though. There is a twofold path out of this destructive war, out of seeing our brothers and sisters as enemies―and into a spacious place of loving each other even as we disagree.

In Loving Disagreement, Kathy Khang and Matt Mikalatos bring unique insight into how the fruit of the Spirit informs our ability to engage in profound difference and conflict with love. As followers of Jesus are planted in the Holy Spirit, the Spirit grows and bears good things in our lives―and relationships and communities are changed.

Read our full review.

The Author | Matt Mikalatos

Matt Mikalatos is an author, screenwriter, and speaker. He’s the author of Journey to Love and the YA fantasy series The Sunlit Lands, writes for the show Going Home, and cohosts the Fascinating Podcast.

He has written for Today.com, Time Magazine, Relevant, Nature, Writer’s Digest, and Daily Science Fiction, among others. He also has a long-running series on the fiction of C.S. Lewis at Tor.com. Matt’s work is often focused on his belief that all human beings are worthy of love.

The Conversation

This transcript excerpt has been lightly edited for clarity and conciseness.

Josh Olds: Give me your elevator pitch for this book. What’s it about? Why should people read it?

Kaitlyn Schiess: Yeah, so this book is most simply a book about how we read the Bible, specifically how we read the Bible in our political contexts. But my desire in writing was not just to say, “Okay, let’s just get in the weeds.” Like, you know, what does this passage about the Jubilee say to our economic life? Or does this passage from Psalms have anything to say about abortion policy? I have found in the last few years of working with a lot of churches, campus ministries, Christian colleges, that when you say we’re having a political conversation, people come with walls up, they come ready to fight, there’s a pretty high temperature initially in that conversation. And so I thought, what if we instead kind of pump the brakes a little bit and look at some examples in history in which scripture has been used, especially American history, I’m thinking about the American political context, some examples in American history where scripture was used in ways that we might find commendable or in ways that we might be quite critical of, and have examples that feel both connected to us. If we’re thinking about the American political context, and yet distant enough from us that maybe we can lower the temperature a little bit, maybe we can learn something about an issue or a biblical interpretation question that’s still very relevant to us, but without immediately jumping to current political questions to do it.

The Book | The Bible and the Ballot

How do Bible passages written thousands of years ago apply to politics today? What can we learn from America’s history of using the Bible in politics? How can we converse with people whose views differ from our own?

In The Ballot and the Bible, Kaitlyn Schiess explores these questions and more. She unpacks examples of how Americans have connected the Bible to politics in the past, highlighting times it was applied well and times it was egregiously misused.

Schiess combines American political history and biblical interpretation to help readers faithfully read Scripture, talk with others about it, and apply it to contemporary political issues–and to their lives. Rather than prescribing what readers should think about specific hot-button issues, Schiess outlines core biblical themes around power, allegiance, national identity, and more.

Readers will be encouraged to pursue a biblical basis for their political engagement with compassion and confidence.

The Author | Kaitlyn Schiess

Kaitlyn Schiess (ThM, Dallas Theological Seminary) is a writer, speaker, and theologian. She is the author of The Liturgy of Politics: Spiritual Formation for the Sake of Our Neighbor and is a regular cohost on the Holy Post podcast with Skye Jethani and Phil Vischer. Her writing has appeared in the New York Times, Christianity Today, Christ and Pop Culture, Relevant, and Sojourners. Schiess is currently a doctoral student in political theology at Duke Divinity School. She lives in Durham, North Carolina.

The Conversation

The following is an interview excerpt that has been lightly edited for the sake of conciseness and clarity.

Josh Olds: Now I want to start and I hope this doesn’t sound confrontational, because I don’t mean it that way. But there are so many books that have been written in recent years about white supremacy and racial reconciliation from both secular and Christian perspectives. So in your mind, what makes your voice and what makes this book be different enough to stand out enough that it adds to the conversation?

Caroline Sumlin: I love this question. My book is specifically about how white supremacy culture causes us, as individuals and as a collective society, to feel unworthy as humans, and what we can do about it, and it’s an approach to white supremacy culture that has not I have never seen this been done before. We know about white supremacy culture, there’s been research done about it. And it’s not, it’s not talked about as much as systemic white supremacy is and there is a difference there. So yes, there’s a lot of books out there about systemic white supremacy. There’s a lot of books out there about how systemic white supremacy and systemic racism causes the disparities between the Black community and the white community and other communities of color, specifically in America, but also, globally.

We can go on and on about that, but who has actually talked about how white supremacy culture has impacted the way that we see ourselves and how that impacts every single one of us, regardless of what our racial identity is, or what our gender expression is, or anything, any other identity, we may, we may carry, or we may hold? So that’s where my book comes in. And it’s actually written about a lot less. It’s a lot of my story woven in there, there’s a lot of talk about healing, and how do you heal from the way white supremacy culture has impacted you as a person and the lies that you’ve believed in the standards you believe you have to uphold yourself to.

The Book | We’ll All Be Free

Discover a Better Standard of Excellence

You’re not good enough. How many of us internalize this belief before we even reach adulthood? How many of us feel unworthy and unable to live up to what seem like impossible-yet-completely-arbitrary standards? Where do these toxic beliefs about ourselves come from? And who told us there is a way we are “supposed” to be anyway?

With passion and compassion, Caroline J. Sumlin reveals the force that keeps all of us, whether we are part of a marginalized group or not, from freely expressing who we are as image bearers of God: white supremacy culture. Sharing her own story, she helps you see the wide-ranging effects of living in a culture of white supremacy. She identifies the damaging beliefs we internalize from our very earliest days and shows us how to find clarity and freedom as we dismantle the oppressive structures that hem us in and force us to conform.

If you have struggled with perfectionism, self-doubt, unworthiness, or the unrelenting pressure to pursue someone else’s version of “success,” you will find here the tools you need to silence the voices that seek to keep you down and to value yourself as never before.



The Author | Caroline Sumlin

Caroline J. Sumlin is a writer, speaker, and educator with a passion for helping all people to reclaim their self-worth and their humanity. A former foster child turned adoptee, Caroline brings awareness, healing, and liberation to the topics of toxic white supremacy culture, systemic injustice, mental health, faith reconstruction, and bold, purposeful living to her growing audience. She received her bachelor of arts from Howard University and resides with her husband and their two daughters in Northern Virginia.

Storytelling is much more than writing. In fact, for most of human history, storytelling has come through the spoken word. How can we get back those oral storytelling roots in modern communication? In The Art of the Tale, storyteller Steven James and speechwriter Tom Morrisey combine their expertise to craft a book all about storytelling in public speaking. Whether you’re a teacher, preacher, business executive, motivational speaker, or just someone who wants to become better at social conversation, there’s something in The Art of the Tale for you. Listen in as Steven James and I talk about the book.

The Conversation | Steven James

This transcript excerpt has been edited for clarity and content. Listen to the full interview at the audio player above or wherever you get your podcasts.

Josh Olds: What am I going to learn when I read this book?

Steven James: I think that one of the things this book approaches a little bit differently and uniquely is the idea of what a story is. A story is not just a list of things that happen. We really unpack the six aspects of all great stories. Basically, the first few are obvious. I’ll say them and you’ll be like, well, of course that seems super obvious, like character. Yeah, a story needs a character. Of course, that seems super obvious. But then also a setting and time and place. Setting is not just the location, but it’s when and where…The next thing a story needs is a struggle. You can have a list of things that happen, but without a struggle, you don’t have a story. You just have an account, a report maybe. You need to struggle to have a story. The fourth is a pursuit where the character wants something, tries to get it, things get in the way, that’s where the struggle comes from.

You can actually have a story that just has those four—character, setting, struggle, pursuit—but it won’t necessarily be a great story. It can be predictable. For a story really be elevated, it needs what I call a pivot. Pivot is where there’s a moment where things you expect them to go in one direction, but they don’t. They change, they alter, into a new direction. But when it happens, you’re like, that totally makes sense…And finally, payoff. Payoff is where if it’s a funny story, we laugh; it’s a heartwarming story, it really impacts us. So it’s not just the same as a theme, but it’s more like the overall impact of the story.

The Book | The Art of the Tale

Unleash the power of storytelling to transform your talks, speeches, and presentations—whether your audience is a boardroom of executives, a classroom of students, or an auditorium full of eager listeners.

Everyone, regardless of their background and training, can improve their storytelling abilities. But what is a story? How can you tell it in a way that delights and informs your listeners? Take a journey into the keys to great storytelling with two of the country’s top experts on story presentation and speech writing.

In The Art of the Tale, expert storytellers Steven James and Tom Morrisey team up and tap into their lifetimes of experience to show you how to prepare stellar presentations, tell stories in your own unique way, adapt your material to different groups of listeners, and gain confidence in your ability as a speaker. In this book, you’ll learn why:



* practice doesn’t make perfect.

* you should never tell the same story twice.

* there is no right way to tell a story.

* it’s best to avoid memorizing your stories.



You’ll also find helpful hints on:



* gaining confidence in your ability as a storyteller.

* connecting with your audience.

* matching your expectations with those of your listeners.

* understanding what makes a good story.

* drawing truth out of stories you wish to tell.

* crafting and remembering stories.

When the COVID-19 pandemic began, it accelerated something that I had been seeing in churches. People were leaving and they weren’t coming back. When COVID forced people out of the normal routine, they were able to step back from church and found that…well…they found that it started them on a walk away from God. Or the church. Deconstruction, some call it. These people still loved Jesus but found their churches promoting policies and politics that didn’t seem very Christlike. So what now? In The Road Away From God, Jonathan Martin uses the Emmaus story in the Gospels to talk about how God remains with us even as we walk away. Join Josh Olds and Jonathan Martin as they talk about this journey.

The Conversation | Jonathan Martin

This excerpt has been edited for clarity and content. Listen to the full interview in the player above or wherever you get your podcasts.

Josh Olds: So let’s get back to the book, The Road Away from God. Give the listener some idea of what this book is about? Who were you writing it to?

Jonathan Martin: This book feels like a love letter to my friends. I feel like almost everybody that I care about has had some sort of really significant shift in their religious and their spiritual experience last few years. And for most people that feels violent, and scary, and alienating. Especially since they’ve had some kind of a shift in terms of their faith community and our community is so often are connected to our identity. Our communities tell us who we are, we know who we are, because of how we exist in relation to them. So I think when we shift in terms of our identity within a community, it makes sense that then all of a sudden, it can feel like everything shifted. Has my relationship with God shifted? How we relate to human communities or authority can be how we relate to God. So really, I hoped it would be a book that would bring some comfort and perspective for people who are very much in the in the thick of that. And again, my sense is a lot of people are in the thick of it in some way or another.

Josh Olds: What do you feel like has been the impetus for the change? You know, what made churches and certain church denominations and faith strains sort of make that slide toward maybe being more overt about the types of people that they didn’t want to include? Or the opposite of that is what made people begin to say, “I can’t do this anymore. I have to step away?”

Jonathan Martin: This is such a great question. I’m loving this conversation so much already, because I can’t even think of when someone’s asked me a version of that. So I think the thing is that certain kinds of figures in America in political power, and then a lot of church leaders actually held in common, was not so much a shared ideology, but more a shared pragmaticism. That it’s kind of like whatever it takes to win, whatever rises to the top. So I think like a certain kind of politics started working. And the folks who engineered those kinds of politics, were saying to people of faith, “Hey, we’ve got room for you here.” “We’d love to have you pray at our prayer breakfast.” “We’d love to have your church participate in this thing” or whatever. And so suddenly, they have more proximity to power than they had before. They’re at the place of power. And so I think a lot of it wasn’t even so much, like directly ideological. It is more like, “Oh, hey, well, now we have this opportunity.” Now we have someone who, at least in terms of lip service, says that that we matter, and that we can have more of a kind of a formal seat at these at these tables of power. And I feel like that’s the thing that became kind of intoxicating, is that, well, if going more in this direction, gives us more access, gives us more influence in this way, then maybe that’s the maybe that’s what God is doing.

Gender identity has recently become part of the “culture war” battles that play out in the media, in our culture, and in our churches. How should Christians respond? How should we talk about the concept of gender identity? How do we have substantive and helpful dialogue and not fall victim to the culture war? How are Christian clinicians supposed to handle issues of gender identity? Gender Identity and Faith offers a blueprint for people to navigate gender-identity questions. In this podcast interview, Dr. Julia Sadusky talks about the book and about how to understand those with diverse gender identities.

The Conversation | Julia Sadusky

This excerpt has been lightly edited for clarity and content. Listen to the full interview at the link above.

Josh Olds: So the book is Gender Identity and Faith. Tell me a little bit about what the book is about, who it is written for, and what you hope to accomplish through it?

Julia Sadusky: Yes, so Gender Identity and Faith is really a book for clinicians. So, if you’re listening and you know therapists, or you yourself are a therapist, this is your book for how we effectively meet the needs of clients coming in for, whom faith is a very important facet of their life, or has been a part of their life for some time, and they’re trying to figure out what it looks like to integrate my experience of gender in keeping with my beliefs and values? And how do I do that in a balanced kind of gradual way, as opposed to believing that there’s only one way to resolve my experience of gender identity. And so that’s more of the framework of the book.

What we’re hoping to accomplish is give clinicians who are well-meaning, who are working with conventionally religious people and their families, concrete tools to develop more of a posture and a confident approach to how they’re engaging with gender minorities in therapy. What we were seeing and continue to see a lot—Mark Yarhouse and I, when we do trainings—is just a real trepidation and fear among clinicians of how do we do right by people in this space, and especially people who may have questions about some of the socio-cultural shifts that we’ve seen in the last 20 years. And so really, equipping clinicians is the goal, and doing so in a balanced psychologically-minded way that is ethical, which doesn’t always happen when clinicians have their own anxieties about how to how to do right by people.

Josh Olds: It’s difficult because the way in which we talk about gender identity or sexual minorities as a society—it comes in the context of what we call the culture wars, and that never foments good discussion. It’s an issue we’ve seen politicized, a gets so much so—bathroom bills, sports participation, and pronouns is like the trifecta. And just if you mentioned the word pronouns, you’re going to get a whole section of Twitter angry at you for that. And you’re like, we’re not having any discussion of meaning or substance, and the humanity of people, regardless of their gender experience, is being lost in the middle of this. What can we do to get rid or push away those less helpful conversations and begin to cultivate more helpful conversations?

Julia Sadusky: Well, I think the first step is what you’re doing right there, Josh, which is recognizing how easily we can get swept up in that. And I think on the front end, it will be catching ourselves when we start to feel ourselves get angry about some debate. So, somebody talks about their own gender identity, or that of a friend, maybe your child comes home from school and says, “Oh, Mom, my friend today said they’re non-binary.” And you start to feel that activation happening, the anger, the frustration, the fear response, what does this mean about the culture and where we’re moving? And we need to really slow that down and think “Oh, my gosh,