The VBAC Link Meagan Heaton

This episode goes back to the basics and is a great place to start on your VBAC journey! Julie joins Meagan today as they talk about many common questions beginning with reasons why providers tell women they can’t go for a VBAC. 

Topics today include: 
Nuchal cordsBig babiesSmall pelvisesArrest of descentThird-trimester ultrasounds Cervical dilationInductionDue datesThe ARRIVE TrialWhy there is so much contradicting VBAC infoPregnancy intervals Epidurals
Meagan and Julie also reflect on how their perspective toward each of these topics have changed over the years. Allowing for nuance is so necessary when approaching birth. Know that you always have options and never feel pressured to make a decision that doesn’t feel right for you.

The VBAC Link Blog: Pregnancy Intervals
Needed Website
How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents
Full Transcript under Episode Details 

04:24 Review of the Week
07:48 Intro to the basics
09:53 Nuchal cords
13:30 Big babies, small pelvises, fluid levels, and third-trimester ultrasounds
17:08 How will this change my care?
18:47 Cervical dilation
25:54 Due dates
28:18 Vulnerability and the ARRIVE trial
30:44 Inducing a VBAC
36:15 Julie’s social media story
38:29 Contradicting information
41:36 Pregnancy intervals
46:38 Epidurals
54:13 Allowing for nuance

Meagan: What’s up, everybody? This is Meagan. We have Ms. Julie with us today and we are going to be talking to you about what we need you to know about VBAC. We obviously like to talk about different topics but Julie and I decided this morning as we were getting ready to record that we need to do an episode on just the basics again. Don’t you feel like it’s the basics? 

It’s not to shame anyone for not knowing the information. It’s honestly to– I don’t even want to say the word shame– but providers are not educating their patients. They are just not. We see it time and time and time again where people just don’t know. 

We saw a post, I don’t know, maybe a month or so ago. I think maybe Julie sent it to me. It was just saying, “Hey, so can you have a VBAC no matter what reason the C-section was for?” Someone said, “Well, it depends because if it’s something like a cord wrapped around the baby’s neck, if that was the reason you had your previous C-section and if your last baby had its cord wrapped around their neck and was having struggle, yes. You have you have a C-section.” 

Julie: I am getting a little salty. I feel like maybe salty is not the right word, but direct. I jumped in and I’m like, “That’s actually not true. The cord wrapped around a baby’s neck preventing them from descending is a perfect VBAC candidate because it’s not anything to do with the pelvis or labor stalling or anything like that.” Anyways. 

Meagan: Even with that said, even with that said– 

Julie: People still argued with me. 

Meagan: Well, but even if it was due to someone being told that their pelvis was too small or their baby didn’t descend– 

Julie: That’s also false. 

Meagan: That’s also false. 

Julie: I mean with actual pelvis trauma where it’s actual CPD and is legitimately diagnosed and that type of thing. Honestly, most people are good candidates for VBAC but we are going to talk about that. 

Meagan: Yeah, we’re going to talk about that today because it’s obviously something that we are really passionate about and it’s something that we want you guys to know so let’s talk about it. 

04:24 Review of the Week
Meagan: We do have a Review of the Week. You guys, it’s a really long one and I might have specifically been waiting for Julie to come on with me so she can read it because she’s a lot better at reading long reviews sometimes. I’m just going to pass the time over to Julie to read this amazing review. 

Julie: Now I feel pressure, man. 

Meagan: Don’t mess up. 

Julie: The pressure’s on. Are you ready for this? This review says, “This is such

Upon arriving at the hospital during her first labor, Sami was told that her baby’s heart rate wasn’t stable, Pitocin was necessary, and a C-section was most likely going to be the safest mode of delivery. After laboring for a while, she was wheeled to the OR but the anesthesiologist was running behind schedule. Sami was checked and discovered she was complete! She pushed like her life depended on it and with the assistance of a vacuum and forceps, was able to vaginally deliver her baby in the OR. 

Sami was thankful to have had a vaginal delivery, but it wasn’t the empowering experience she hoped for and she knew she wanted something different the next time around. But when her second baby flipped breech during labor, Sami unexpectedly consented to a Cesarean. 

During her third pregnancy, Sami did everything in her power to set herself up for a VBAC. She found out her baby was breech and exhausted all options to try to flip her. A few weeks after a successful ECV, Sami had a precipitous VBAC, pushing her baby out within one hour of arriving at the hospital!

Sami's Fitness Account
How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents
Full Transcript under Episode Details 

01:23 Review of the Week
04:26 Sami’s first pregnancy
06:41 A vaginal birth in the OR
07:55 Second pregnancy and switching providers
11:00 Flipping breech during labor
13:10 Sami’s C-section and feeling invalidated
16:50 Third pregnancy
24:19 A successful ECV
29:38 Going into labor
32:38 Pushing her baby out within one hour of arriving at the hospital

Meagan: Hey, hey everybody. We have another VBAC story for you today from our friend, Sami. She is actually local to me here in Utah. Hi, how are you?

Sami: Hi, I’m good. I’m so excited to be here. 

Meagan: So excited to share these stories. I was going over your story and it’s just crazy to think how things can twist and turn and the unexpected can happen. I love that about stories sometimes and then I don’t love that it happens but I also love the uniqueness of that. Does that make sense? 

Sami: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like literally and figuratively, my babies twist and turns happen. 

Meagan: Yes. 

It’s important to know that going into birth even though we are planning one way, sometimes twists and turns can happen and then it’s up to us to figure out how to navigate through that space and it’s not always easy. It’s okay to not always have it be easy and then sometimes it is easy. That’s another thing I wanted to talk about too is pointing out that to some, a twist and a turn might be no big deal to someone and then to some, it rocks their world. 

We are all in different spaces here and you definitely like you said both figuratively and actually have some twists and turns. 

01:23 Review of the Week
Meagan: We’re going to share her story in just a minute but of course, we do have a Review of the Week and I just wanted to quickly share it. This is by– okay, I’m probably going to butcher this. It is mitaywa. I’m so sorry if you are listening and you are like, You are telling this so wrong. It says, “I hope this plays over the speaker in every OB/GYN office.” I love that. That’s a cool subject. It says, “I cannot even begin to describe what encouragement these podcasts have been for me. I have completely binged on these the past few weeks and they have grown my confidence for my up-and-coming VBAC baby. I cannot stop sharing everything I’m learning and even help encourage first-time moms to educate themselves on how to avoid a Cesarean in the first place. Thank you so much for this no B.S., truth-declaring and empowering platform that I know has encouraged so many more than just myself. Keep being amazing. I can’t wait to share our story in just a few short months. All of my love.” 

Aw, that’s such a great review. I love that so much. I hope that you got your VBAC and that all went well. I’m so excited to hear that this podcast is doing exactl

Every pregnancy and birth experience is different. That is true for everyone, but especially for Kristen. Kristen joins us from Provo, Utah, and shares her experiences with an initial vaginal birth, a diagnosis of omphacele with a Cesarean and infant loss with her second that left her with a special scar, an induced, medicated hospital VBAC with her third, and she is currently expecting twins!

Kristen’s journey has not been easy, but she has learned and grown so much. She talks about how a safe and supportive birth team truly makes all the difference. Your intuition will help guide you to the best provider for you. When you know, you know!

Meagan concludes the episode by touching on some myths and facts about doulas. 

The VBAC Link Blog: Myths and Facts About Doulas
The VBAC Link Blog: Special Scars
Special Scars, Special Hope
Needed Website
How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents
Full Transcript under Episode Details 

01:50 Review of the Week
04:02 Kristen’s first vaginal birth
09:41 Coping with grief and hospital communication issues
15:17 A low transverse incision with a J extension
19:59 Finding VBAC support in Salt Lake
23:10 Foley induction at 41.5 weeks
29:29 Changing plans
30:37 Myths about doulas
38:55 Facts about doulas
41:05 Kristen’s advice to other women with special scars
43:26 Listening to your intuition when choosing a provider

Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. Thank you for joining us for another amazing episode here at The VBAC Link. Today’s story is from someone who is local to me which I think is always kind of fun to have someone who when they are telling the story, I know the birthing place, I know the provider, and here I even know the doula so that is super exciting. 

Welcome, Kristen to the show. 

Kristen: Thank you, Meagan. 

Meagan: Thank you so much for being here and I’m excited for you to share your stories. I would like to get into a review really quickly so then we can do that. 

Kristen: Sure. 

01:50 Review of the Week
Meagan: Okay, we have a reviewer from Apple Podcasts and it says louuuuuhuuuu. I think that’s how it is and it says, “Very Inspirational.” It says, “I knew I wanted a VBAC with my third pregnancy, but I wasn’t sure if it was possible. However, I knew I didn’t like being flat-out told no at my first appointment. Listening to the podcast was definitely the start of me really researching birth and looking into my options. I ended up with a successful HBAC” which is home birth after two Cesareans, actually HBA2C, “and I definitely don’t think I would have had the courage or believed it was possible without the podcast. Thank you, Meagan, for all of the work that you do to provide this information.” 

And thank you, louuuuuhuuuu. I don’t know how to say it. I’m just butchering your name. If you are still listening, thank you so much for your review, and as always, we love your reviews. They really do help the podcast. They help Women of Strength find these incredible stories and information just like she was able to receive. You can drop that review at Apple Podcasts or Google or wherever you listen to your podcasts. 

04:02 Kristen’s first vaginal birth, Cesarean, and infant loss experience
Meagan: Okay, Kristen. Thank you again so much for joining us. I would love to turn the time over to you to share your stories. 

Kristen: Well, thank you. It’s hard to know where to start. There are a lot of details to mine. 

We had our first little boy in April of 2018. That was its own experience. That was a vaginal birth honestly. That was as hard as it was as a first-time mom and a first-time pregnancy/birth. It had its own set of interesting details to go along with that but we soon found ourselves unexpectedly pregnant with our second one just four months later after he was born. 

Meagan: Really soon. 

Kristen: Yeah, they would have been 11 months apart. I say would have been because my daughter who I had via Cesarea

Julie Francom joins Meagan on the podcast to talk about checking the validity of the information you see surrounding VBAC. There is so much information out there and so much misinformation that we want to help you figure out what is actually evidence-based! 

Julie and Meagan draw on their personal experiences with making corrections to information they understood and have shared. They talk about how the structure, size, and date of a study can influence the statistics. Julie shares why Cochrane reviews are her favorite.

The VBAC Link is committed to helping you have the most evidence-based and truthful information as you make your birthing decisions. We promise to update you with all of the new information as we receive it!

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents
Full Transcript under Episode Details 

03:30 Checking the validity of social media posts
08:01 Our corrected post about VBA2C
12:56 The production behind a statistic or article
18:37 Cochrane reviews
19:06 Checking the dates of studies and emailing us for verification
23:29 Nuchal cords
25:21 Julie’s sleep training story
29:45 Information at your fingertips

Meagan: Hey, hey everybody. Guess what? We have Julie today on the podcast. 

Julie: Hey. 

Meagan: Hey. We’re going to be doing a short but sweet, maybe also a little sassy because as Julie has said, she likes to get sassy these days. 

We’re going to do a short but sweet episode on how to tell if VBAC or HBAC or really just anything–

Julie: Any. 

Meagan: Yeah, any information you see online is real or fake. Now, if you’re following along on our social media, you likely have seen a lot of our myth and fact posts. I think we share them probably once a week honestly because there really are so many things out there that are myths and things that are facts, but on a whole other side and a whole addition to myth and fact is really what should we be believing? What should we be resharing? Right, Julie? I think that this definitely is something that is close to our hearts at least I’m going to say is close to my heart. I think it’s close to Julie’s heart. 

Julie: Oh, for sure. 

Meagan: We want to protect this community and we want this community to find the real information, and not the false information. We know. You can Google anything. 

Julie: So much false information. 

Meagan: You can Google anything and find the real and false information but when it comes to VBAC, like she said, so much false information. 

We’re not even going to do a Review of the Week. We are going to jump right in in just a second after the intro. 
03:30 Checking the validity of social media posts
Meagan: All right, Julie. Are you ready to get spicy?

Julie: Yeah, I think maybe the biggest reason we decided to do this episode and at least for me anyway why I brought it up is because there is so much information out there that looks good, right? You can be like, Oh my gosh, yes. This is amazing. We’re passionate. We as in me and Meagan, but we as in you too who is listening. Clearly, you’re passionate. 

But we really need to be careful what we’re sharing both from our business accounts and what we’re resharing from other people because sometimes if you share this information and it’s incorrect and wrong and it goes viral which there is a recent post that has and sparked this thing, and we’re not going to call anybody out, but when you share misinformation and it goes big and people start believing this incorrect information, it can really do damage to the efforts that we’re trying to make here which is increasing access to VBAC for everybody. 

If you have this entire group of people who think that their chances of having a VBAC at a hospital let’s say are 30% or something like that when really your chances of having a successful VBAC if you get to try– get to try I’m using very loosely– are really between 60-80%. Those are the numbers. 

But there was a post recen

“I did it. They said I couldn’t, but I did it.”

When planning for her VBA3C, Shannon got just about as much kickback as someone can get. She was ambushed. She was coerced. She was given the scariest information. 

Shannon joins us from England today and talks about how each of her four births brought her to where she is today. By the time she was pregnant with her fourth, she was ready to advocate. She was ready to fight for something she had never gotten to experience. 

Though none of her providers were supportive, Shannon stayed grounded. She made her desires known and stood by them. 

Shannon labored unmedicated for just over 14 hours. Then to everyone’s surprise, she pushed her fourth baby girl out vaginally in 14 minutes!

The VBAC Link Blog: Is VBA3C Right for You?
The VBAC Link Blog: VBAMC
How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents
Full Transcript under Episode Details 

04:04 First pregnancy and birth
08:31 Second pregnancy and scheduled repeat Cesarean
10:56 Third pregnancy
14:04 A heartbreaking third Cesarean
17:42 Postpartum during COVID
19:55 Fourth pregnancy
24:37 Getting ambushed
28:40 Shannon’s VBA3C birth
36:32 “We are all so proud.”
38:30 VBAC after three Cesareans

Meagan: Hello, hello. You are listening to The VBAC Link. We have our friend, Shannon. Are you from England? Where are you?

Shannon: England, yeah. New Cambridge. 

Meagan: Okay, see? I’m so glad my mind is remembering. You are in England and you guys, she is recording. It is quite late there. She is such a gem to stay up and record and share her VBAC after three C-sections. 

Shannon: Three. 

Meagan: Yes. Her fourth was a vaginal birth. Uno, dos, tres. I can’t even say. I can’t even pretend that I know Spanish. Let’s be honest. So three, you guys. After three Cesareans and we know in our community that this is definitely something that people want to hear. People want to hear these stories because it is harder to find the support. They want to hear what people are doing, how they are navigating through, where they are finding support, and what they are doing to have their vaginal birth after multiple Cesareans. 

We are excited, Shannon, for you to share your stories today. 

01:07 Review of the Week
Meagan: We do have a Review of the Week so we’re going to get into that and then we’ll dive right in. Okay, so this is from morgane and it says, “I’m Not Alone.” I love that title because Women of Strength, you are not alone. This community is so incredible and we’re all here for you. It says, “This podcast has provided so much comfort for me in coping with my unplanned Cesarean and now planning for VBAC in March. The transition to motherhood has been somewhat lonely for me since most of my friends are not mothers and hello? Pandemic.” So this is a little bit ago, right? 

It says, “I am also an aspiring doula and spurred on by these ladies and their work. So thankful I stumbled across this group.” 

Oh my gosh. It says, “Us women really are strong.” I love that. Us women really are strong. I could not agree more. You guys, you are strong. You are capable and you have options. If that is not anything and everything that we talk about on this podcast, then I’m doing it wrong and you need to let me know on your next review. 

As just a constant reminder, if you wouldn’t mind leaving us a review, that would be so great. You can leave it on Apple Podcasts, Google, or you can even email us. 

04:04 First pregnancy and birth
Meagan: Okay, Shannon. Uno, dos, tres– three. I’m saying it correctly now. After three Cesareans, you have had quite the different journey with each birth. 

Shannon: Yeah. I think each one taught me a little bit more and I probably wasn’t ready for a vaginal birth with my first three. I think that while looking back on my journey it’s difficult, I think it led me to where I am today. 

Meagan: Me too. I’m right there. Amen. Same. I love birth and I

Dr. Christina Pinnock is a Maternal Fetal Medicine Specialist/Perinatologist based in California and creator of the ZerotoFour Podcast. She is here to help us tackle topics like what constitutes a high-risk pregnancy, lupus, preeclampsia, HELLP syndrome, gestational diabetes, fibroids, and bicornuate uteruses and how they relate to VBAC. 

The overarching theme of this episode is that all pregnancies are individual experiences. If you are hoping to achieve a VBAC and you have pregnancy complications, find a provider whose goals align with yours. By ensuring that your comfort levels are a good match, you are on your way to a safe and empowering birth experience!

Dr. Pinnock’s Website and Podcast
Needed Website
How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents
Full Transcript under Episode Details 

00:58 Review of the Week
03:13 Dr. Christina Pinnock
03:56 Importance of a VBAC-supportive provider
06:36 High-risk pregnancies
11:02 Lupus and TOLAC
14:31 Preeclampsia 
17:19 Varying ranges of preeclampsia
20:46 HELLP Syndrome 
26:36 Other High-risk situations 
27:54 Gestational Diabetes
35:00 Inductions with gestational diabetes
42:25 Fibroids 
46:33 Do fibroids tend to grow during pregnancy? 
51:20 Bicornuate Uterus

Meagan: Have you ever been told that you were high risk, so you’ll be unable to TOLAC? Or maybe you can totally TOLAC assuming nothing high-risk comes into play? What does high risk mean? We often get questions in our inbox asking if having your previous cesarean makes them high risk. Or questions about topics like preeclampsiaclampsia, gestational diabetes, bicornuate uterus, fibroids, and more. 

I am so excited to have board-certified OB/GYN Dr. Christina Pinnock on the show today. She is a high-risk pregnancy doctor passionate about educating women along their pregnancy journeys so they can be more informed and comfortable during their pregnancy. She is located in California and has a podcast of her own called “ZerotoFour” where she talks about topics that will help first-time moms prepare for, thrive, and recover from pregnancy as well as shares evidence-based information and answers everyday questions like we are going to discuss today. 

00:58 Review of the Week
Meagan: We do have a Review of the Week, so I'm going to jump into that and then we can dive in to get into these fantastic questions from Dr. Christina Pinnock. 

Today’s reviewer's name is Obsessed!!!! It says, “The best VBAC and birth podcast. I am grateful to have discovered Meagan and this podcast. I definitely believe listening to stories of these amazing women and their parent’s course helped me achieve my two VBACs. Thank you for all you do The VBAC Link.”

Oh, thank you so much Obsessed!!!!!  And as always if you wouldn’t mind, drop us a review leave us a comment and you never know, it may be read on the next podcast. 

03:13 Dr. Christina Pinnock
Meagan: Okay, Women of Strength. I am seriously so, so excited to have our guest here with us today! Dr. Christina, is it Pinnock? How do you say it?

 Dr. Pinnock: Yes that’s perfect.

Meagan: Ok, just wanted to make sure I was saying it correctly. Welcome to the show! You guys, she is amazing and has been so gracious to accept our invitation here to today to talk about high-risk pregnancy and what it means. Hopefully, we’ll talk a little bit about gestational diabetes because that's a big one when it comes to VBAC. And if we have time, so much more. So welcome to the show and thank you again for being here.

Dr. Pinnock: Thank you so much for having me, I'm excited to be here and chat with you and your audience about these great topics, so thank you.

03:56 Importance of a VBAC-supportive provider
Meagan: Yes! Okay well, this isn’t a question we had talked about, but I’m curious. Being in California, do you find it hard to find support for VBAC or do you find it easy? I mean, California is so big and you’re in Mountain View. So I don’t know exactly wher