
208 episodes

Behavioral Grooves Podcast Kurt Nelson, PhD and Tim Houlihan
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- Social Sciences
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5.0 • 1 Rating
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Improve your work and life through science! Behavioral Grooves is a discussion of the positive application of behavioral science to work and life. It's the WHY WE DO WHAT WE DO podcast. Kurt Nelson, Ph.D., and Tim Houlihan interview leading researchers, academics, practitioners, and accidental behavioral scientists. Our conversations are lively, spontaneous, full of laughs, and insights into the science behind why we do what we do. We conclude each podcast with a grooving session, recorded after the interview, where we explore the science and reflect on the key takeaways from the interview and the topics we discussed.
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Jonathan Mann: Is it Possible to Design an Experience?
Can you design an experience for someone else? Jonathan Mann, the Vice President of User Experience at Renaissance Learning says, “Umm, not really.” Prior to joining Renaissance, Jonathan led user experience teams at Target Corporation and PayPal. And as a practitioner, he’s always valued good research to help him, and his teams, deliver better work.
Our discussion centered around the question, “is it possible to design an experience?” Jonathan’s research discovered that “an experience” is more than just what we think of as the element that happens in the moment we consider it an experience.
Jonathan reminded us that the totality of “an experience” combines three key elements: the anticipation of the experience, the experience itself, and the memory of the experience. A vacation is a great example of this: we plan and anticipate lots of experiences before we arrive at our destination. Then we are flooded with experiences in the moment, and afterward, we have photos to remind us and memories to interpret our experience after the fact. We know that the remembered self is one of the most important reasons we do anything: how we’ll remember it. So why shouldn’t we consider it identifying the experience in its broadest sense?
We talked about Jonathan’s meeting with Bob Cialdini and how Jonathan’s work with Bob’s crew brought incredible results to the initiatives they were working on at PayPal. We are always happy to see how nicely behavioral science and business results dovetail.
And maybe most importantly, this episode features a live fingerstyle guitar micro-concert by Jonathan. We asked him about playing and he instantly turned around, grabbed his guitar, and started playing for us. His fingerstyle abilities are very fine, and that part of the recording was nothing short of delightful – in every aspect of the word. Enjoy it!
We hope you enjoy our episode with Jonathan Mann and discover new ways that you can integrate his clever thinking on designing an experience into your own work.
© 2021 Behavioral Grooves
Links
Jonathan Mann LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jdmann/
Jonathan Mann Album: http://jonathanmanndesign.com/music (with links to Spotify, Pandora, iTunes, etc)
Jonathan Mann YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVtiHkr4xdBzVZ6Oc3ybsUw
Jonathan Mann Woodworking: https://www.behance.net/fynedesign
Dan Gilbert, “Stumbling on Happiness”: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/56627.Stumbling_on_Happiness
Robert Cialdini - Towel study: https://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/dont-throw-in-the-towel-use-social-influence-research
Common Biases and Heuristics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit?usp=sharing
The Dakota: https://www.dakotacooks.com/
Fingerstyle Guitar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingerstyle_guitar
Musical Links
Green Day “Boulevard of Broken Dreams”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Soa3gO7tL-c
Stone Temple Pilots “Interstate Love Song”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10MQY33cYCg
Leo Kottke “Last Steam Train”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E_s4vQJx-k
Tommy Emmanuel “Classical Gas”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S33tWZqXhnk
The Jimi Hendrix Experience “Voodoo Child”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFfnlYbFEiE
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Why We Need Robots with Kind Faces with Bertram Malle
Bertram Malle, PhD teaches social cognitive science and social psychology at Brown University, he’s the author of dozens of articles and has focused his recent work on how humans feel about robots, and researches how the etiquette and facial abilities of robots impact how we perceive them.
His research indicates that the more human-looking a robot is – especially in its “face” – the more humans are likely to attribute emotions or moral codes to them. Bertram’s work reminds us that the context we experience robots in influences the relationships we build.
Maybe more importantly, Bertram reminded us that robots must be designed to exist in very specific contexts. The appearance and communication abilities of a robot that checks us into a doctor’s office needs to be very different from the robots we use to assist us with making an airline reservation.
While that may be intuitive on one level, it highlights the remarkable complexity required in the design and manufacturing of these robots. Each one needs to be built for a specific purpose – there is no one-size-fits-all with robots. Bertram reminded us that it’s difficult to imagine that robots will ever reach the complexity and flexibility of their human counterparts.
We also parsed out the differences between hope and optimism. This topic was particularly important to because we’re too often conflating the two. Hope, Bertram explained, is something we have when we lack confidence or influence in the outcome. And optimism exists where we might have some degree of influence over the outcome.
We hope you enjoy our conversation with Bertram Malle.
© 2021 Behavioral Grooves
Links
Bertram Malle, PhD email: bfmalle@brown.edu
Social Cognitive Science Research Lab (Brown University): http://research.clps.brown.edu/SocCogSci/index.html
Bertram Malle, “Theory of Mind”: https://nobaproject.com/modules/theory-of-mind
Bertram Malle & Patty Bruininks “Distinguishing Hope from Optimism and Related Affective States”: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/226421327_Distinguishing_Hope_from_Optimism_and_Related_Affective_States
Bertram Malle Selected Publications: http://research.clps.brown.edu/SocCogSci/Publications/publications.html
ABOT: http://www.abotdatabase.info/
MIT Lab on Automated Vehicles: https://www.media.mit.edu/research/?filter=everything&tag=autonomous-vehicles
“Her” film: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Her_(film)
“Ex Machina” film: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_Machina_(film)
TAY: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay_(bot)
Isaac Asimov: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Asimov
Jóhann Jóhannsson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3hann_J%C3%B3hannsson
Hildur Guðnadóttir: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildur_Gu%C3%B0nad%C3%B3ttir
Fritz Heider, PhD & Marianne Simmel, PhD, “An experimental study of apparent behavior”: https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1945-01435-001
Common Biases and Heuristics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit?usp=sharing
Minnesota Timberwolves: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Timberwolves
Musical Links
Radiohead “Hail to the Thief”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MdwaUtW_D4
Esbjörn Svensson Trio “Seven Days of Falling”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7KXq6RJ0PA
Bill Dixon “Motorcycle ‘66”: https://youtu.be/ZcO8zfp-FLg
Tyshawn Sorey “Unfiltered”: https://tyshawn-sorey.bandcamp.com/album/unfiltered
Sigur Ros “Brennisteinn”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc6zXSdYXm8
Hildur Gu∂nadottir “Unveiled”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzaxVFc9oIs
Anders Hillborg “Violin Concerto No. 1”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrJ7rhQDjsE
Daniel Lanois with the Venetian Snares: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9u93SDxNsk
Daniel Lanois with Parachute Club: https://www.discogs.com/The-Parachute-Club-Rise-Up/release/1209691
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The Myth of the "Relationship Spark" with Logan Ury (featuring a guest appearance by Christina Gravert, PhD)
Logan Ury studied psychology at Harvard, was a TED Fellow, then became a behavioral scientist at Google, where she ran Google’s behavioral science team – which we now know as The Irrational Lab. She became a dating coach and is currently the Director of Relationship Science at the dating app Hinge, where she leads a research team dedicated to helping people find love. Her work has appeared in The New York Times and The Atlantic, among a variety of media outlets, including HBO and the BBC. And you should note that she’s a featured speaker at SXSW 2021.
Aside from those cool things, we wanted to talk to her because she is the author of How To Not Die Alone.
In our conversation with Logan, we talked about the challenges people face in getting prepared for dating, making the most of their dating experiences, and maintaining great relationships once they’ve landed in one. She shared her insights into how to overcome some of the common hurdles and to make the most out of each phase of the dating life.
We had an interesting discussion about why moving from ‘romanticizer’ or ‘maximizer’ to ‘satisficer’ can make a big difference in your relationships (and in life). We talked about the Monet Effect and how we need to work hard to overcome some of our biggest biases – like the fundamental attribution error and negativity bias.
She was also kind enough to share a little bit about her communal living conditions and her recommendation that we all need more significant others – OSO’s – in these turbulent times.
NOTE #1: The “F” word features prominently in our conversation since it’s in the title of one of her book’s chapters.
NOTE #2: Christina Gravert joined for our Grooving Session as our first-ever Grooving Partner, and you’ll hear her in the introduction, as well. We’re pleased that our good friend was named by Forbes magazine as one of the top behavioral scientists you ought to know. Christina teaches Economics at the University of Copenhagen, is a co-founder of Impactually, a behavioral consultancy, she has been a guest on Behavioral Grooves (episode 16 on creating a Nudge-A-Thon), and was a speaker at Nudge.It North 2021.
© 2021 Behavioral Grooves
Links
Logan Ury: https://www.loganury.com/
“How to Not Die Alone”: https://www.loganury.com/book
Ira Glass: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ira_Glass
Dan Ariely: https://danariely.com/
Esther Perel: https://www.estherperel.com/
John Gottman, The Gottman Institute: https://www.gottman.com/
Eli Finkel: https://elifinkel.com/
Daniel Gilbert: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Gilbert_(psychologist)
Jane Ebert: https://www.brandeis.edu/facultyguide/person.html?emplid=0fd6834b65b0eddec69f2ab77539fd341d63b270
Alain De Botton “School of Life”: https://www.theschooloflife.com/about-us/faculty/alain-de-botton/
Reiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reiki
“Algorithms to Live By”: https://algorithmstoliveby.com/
John Nash “A Beautiful Mind”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Forbes_Nash_Jr.
Nicole Prause: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicole_Prause
36 Questions That Lead to Love: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/09/style/no-37-big-wedding-or-small.html
The School of Life books: https://www.theschooloflife.com/shop/us/books/
Shelley Archambeau – Episode 204: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-shelley-archambeau-flies-like-an-eagle/
Christina Gravert – Episode 16: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/nudge-a-thon-with-dr-christina-gravert/
Christina Gravert, “Online Dating Like a Game Theorist”: https://behavioralscientist.org/online-dating-like-a-game-theorist/
Christina Gravert – Impactually: https://impactually.se/
“10 Behavioral Scientists You Should Know”: https://www.forbes.com/sites/alineholzwarth/2020/10/29/10-behavioral-scientists-you-should-know/?sh=36ad80b442e0
Musical Links
“Hamilton” soundtrack: https:// -
How Shelley Archambeau Flies Like an Eagle
Shellye Archambeau is the author of “Unapologetically Ambitious: Take Risks, Break Barriers, and Create Success on Your Own Terms.” It’s part memoir, part inspiration, and career guidebook. While Shellye argues it’s for everyone, we reckon it’s really best suited for the most ambitious among us. In the book, Shellye shares how she went from being the only black girl in her high school to being the CEO of a Silicon Valley tech firm, MetricStream. And it’s an amazing tale of an amazing woman.
In our conversation with Shellye, she talked with us about the challenges she faced growing up. But what was more interesting to us was talking with her about the way she makes decisions. She has this ability to see how things fit – or don’t fit – into her personal and business goals. And then she acts on them with amazing conviction. She is one remarkable person.
We talked about how she has a strong inclination to set lofty goals – that we call BHAGS (big, hairy, audacious goals) – that never changes over the course of her career. These BHAGS gave her a North Star to navigate by. But the BRICKS (the steppingstones to needed to achieve long-term goals) she used along her journey were flexible and changed as her situation changed.
This flexibility is something we wanted to call out, because it wasn’t just being flexible that got her where she is today. Her incredible ability to create plans and execute those plans is what really set her apart from her peers. And we can imagine that all of her peers at IBM were talented, skilled, smart, and driven. Just not as much as Shellye.
INTERESTED IN BEING A PART-TIME INTERN FOR BEHAVIORAL GROOVES?
If you’d like to pursue being a part-time intern with Behavioral Grooves, please contact Kurt or Tim directly.
Kurt Nelson, PhD: kurt@lanterngroup.com
Tim Houlihan: tim@behavioralchemy.com
“Transfiguration” by Jonathan Benson is used for the interstitial music in this episode.
© 2021 Behavioral Grooves
Links
Shellye Archambeau on Twitter: @ShelArchambeau
Shellye’s web site: https://shellyearchambeau.com/
“Unapologetically Ambitious”: https://shellyearchambeau.com/books
Carol Dweck – Growth Mindset: https://www.mindsetworks.com/science/
George Bernard Shaw: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Bernard_Shaw
Stephen Curtis, Episode # 148: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/covid-19-crisis-stephen-curtis-on-neuroplasticity-and-creating-the-ideal/
Locke & Latham on Goals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goal_setting
Nicholas Christakis and James Fowler, “The Spread of Obesity in a Large Social Network over 32 Years”: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmsa066082
Musical Links
Steve Miller “Fly Like an Eagle”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a6lAwbE1J4
Spinners “I’ll Be Around”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq5VXTO3HDI
Marvin Gaye “What’s Going On”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPkM8F0sjSw
The O’ Jays, “Love Train”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECZr3-a_rDA
Teddy Pendergrass, “Turn Off the Lights”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK4wofMj5-k
Alfie Pollitt, "Say It (Over and Over)": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTaDr1lq8mY
Earl Klugh, “This Time”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7fF_eRYM5k
Dave Koz, “You Make Me Smile”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cshiIac91U
Brian Culbertson, “Colors of Love”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MM5hSddIcg
Praful, “Don't Fight with Life/Om Namah Shivaya”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D51CbCMY10
George Benson, “On Broadway”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ef0kThw5VY
Elton John, “Don’t Let The Sun Go Down On Me”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncuiQAfPhTg
Audrey Hepburn, “Moon River”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uirBWk-qd9A -
On Fake Memories and Whistleblowers with Nuala Walsh
Nuala Walsh is a strategic adviser with MindEquity, working with organizations to create reputation, commercial and cultural change. She is a global leader, an award-winning marketeer, and a behavioral scientist. Nuala has nearly 3 decades of strategic, commercial, and governance experience in asset management, investment banking, and consulting. All her strategic solutions are informed by decision science & behavioral frameworks.
Nuala is also the Non-Executive Director of GAABS, the Vice-Chair of UN Women, and she has been the Chief Marketing Officer, Standard Life Aberdeen. In short, she’s a remarkable person whose insights are worth paying attention to as both a practitioner and a researcher.
We spoke with Nuala recently about some investigations she completed on two topics. The first was to understand the impact that fake news has on our ‘remembering’ self. What she discovered is that our memories don’t discriminate between true or false information – we tend to remember it all roughly the same way, when we believe it at the start.
The second area we discussed was about whistleblowers in modern corporations. Without the proper environment, whistleblowers don’t act or can be maltreated within an organization when they do raise their hands. Nuala’s got some ideas on how to change that. Here’s her list of tips for improving your corporate culture to support whistleblowers:
Reframe. The word whistleblowing is a negative word, so reframing it as “speaking up” could be more positive. There's a shift in how companies can rewrite how they message to employees.
Economic. Scandalized companies earn 4% less than firms that have not experienced major scandals. So by definition, a company could earn 4% more if it’s clean and could impact employees' wages should they go to another firm.
Rewards. Rewarding employees with relevant incentives and she is quick to recommend against financial, such as appropriately recognizing people, sharing salient stories of courage, talking about people in the company, people outside the company as role models…all of these can contribute positively to better company culture.
By taking bad behavior out of the shadows or removing the Social Norming effect of removing it from secrecy is a powerful tool. But you can't just point to somebody internally to highlight their courage, leaders need to appropriately highlight teams that have called out errors that prevented disasters. It’s best to not pinpoint an individual because of personal risk and a lot of potential threats.
Make it Normal. Employees won’t speak up in a dangerous work environment. The more you make the environment open and communal and part of the cultural norm, the less fear that is induced on people and the greater likelihood they’ll point out bad behavior when it happens.
We hope you enjoy our conversation with Nuala as much as we did. If you like it, please don’t hesitate to give Behavioral Grooves a quick rating on your listening app.
Links
Nuala Walsh: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nualagwalsh/
Anthony Hopkins: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Hopkins
Robert De Niro: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_De_Niro
Dan Gilbert: https://psychology.fas.harvard.edu/people/daniel-gilbert
Daniel Kahneman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kahneman
Elizabeth Loftus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Loftus
Common Biases and Heuristics: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XHpBr0VFcaT8wIUpr-9zMIb79dFMgOVFRxIZRybiftI/edit?usp=sharing
Merle van den Akker: https://www.moneyonthemind.org/about
The Innocence Project: https://innocenceproject.org/
Josef Mengele: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Mengele
Ted Bundy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy
Ann Rule: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Rule
OJ Simpson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O._J._Simpson
Bibb Latané: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B -
How Chaning Jang Works Around Not Being WEIRD
Chaning Jang is the CSO of the Busara Center for Behavioral Economics and has helped lead the organization since 2013. He is responsible for strategy, and a portfolio of projects, primarily focused on research. Prior to joining Busara, Chaning worked as an English teacher in the Czech Republic and an equities trader in Los Angeles. Chaning completed a Postdoc at Princeton University in Psychology and Public Affairs, holds a PhD in Economics from the University of Hawai'i with specialization in Behavioral Economics and Development, and a bachelor's in Managerial Economics from the University of California, Davis. He is also a CFA level II holder.
We spoke to Chaning one night (for him) from his office in Nairobi, Kenya and we focused our discussion on context and how so much of psychological research has been focused in WEIRD countries (Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, and Democratic). Because of this focus and how behavior can be linked to cultural and social norms, countries that are not WEIRD are often unable to successfully apply the research that was executed in WEIRD cultures. Chaning is trying to change that.
The work that the Busara Center is doing is important on many levels, the most significant is trying to eliminate poverty at the heart of where it is the worst on earth: Africa. Chaning’s work is fascinating, his ideas sparkle with intensity, and his comments are inspiring. We hope you enjoy our conversation with Chaning Jang.
We are grateful to Allison Zelkowitz from Save the Children for connecting us.
Links
Chaning Jang, PhD: https://www.busaracenter.org/staff-bios?tag=Chaning%20Jang
Busara Center for Behavioral Economics: https://www.busaracenter.org/
Dan Ariely, PhD: https://danariely.com/
WEIRD: https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/pdfs/WeirdPeople.pdf
Johannes Haushofer, PhD: https://www.tedmed.com/speakers/show?id=621210
Kahneman & Tversky: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Kahneman
The Linda Problem (Conjunction Fallacy): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjunction_fallacy
Jeremy Shapiro, PhD: https://www.poverty-action.org/people/jeremy-shapiro
Economic and psychological effects of health insurance and cash transfers: Evidence from a randomized experiment in Kenya: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0304387818310289
Trier Social Stress Test: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trier_social_stress_test
Cold Pressor Test: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_pressor_test
Kevin Parker: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Parker_(musician)
Poverty Decreases IQ: https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/sendhil/files/976.full_.pdf
Musical Links
Tame Impala (Australian psych-rock): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C24hUt18RWY
John Lennon “Instant Karma”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfBPbFEel5k
Daft Punk with Pharrell Williams “Get Lucky”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkeIwhKIi84
Fleetwood Mac “The Chain”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6P2_i0Y6ms
Joji “Your Man”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrtkU7i0qD8
Fleet Foxes “Can I Believe You”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2E2DpWO3-Y
Freddie Mercury “I’m The Great Pretender”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLRjFWDGs1g
© 2021 Behavioral Grooves
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