1 hr 39 min
75: Data & Control: Seeing Like A State Made You Think
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- Society & Culture
"The despot is not a man. It is the Plan. The correct, realistic, exact plan, the one that will provide your solution once the problem has been posited clearly, in its entirety, in its indispensable harmony. This plan has been drawn up well away from the frenzy in the mayor’s office or the town hall, from the cries of the electorate or the laments of society’s victims. It has been drawn up by serene and lucid minds. It has taken account of nothing but human truths. It has ignored all current regulations, all existing usages, and channels. It has not considered whether or not it could be carried out with the constitution now in force. It is a biological creation destined for human beings and capable of realization by modern techniques."
Welcome back to another episode of Made You Think! In this episode, Nat and Neil are joined by Adil Majid to discuss their key takeaways from Seeing Like a State by James C. Scott. This book discusses how states seek to make the territory more legible in order to guide its functioning. However, this planned social order often disregards vital features of any real, functioning social order. How do certain schemes to improve the human condition end up failing?
We cover a wide range of topics including:
Government’s desire for legibility vs. local control and power Infinite coastline paradox The importance of feedback loops and adaptability in a system How high modernism has been implemented and why those implementations have failed Connections between the book and cryptocurrency
And much more. Please enjoy, and make sure to follow Nat, Neil, and Adil on Twitter and share your thoughts on the episode.
Links from the Episode:
Mentioned in the show:
High modernism (5:58) Window tax (20:25) The Blind Cafe - San Francisco (35:32) The Infinite Coastline (43:22) Rise Roar Revolt (1:07:14) India’s Economy Hinges on the Return of Workers Who Fled to Their Villages (1:14:58) Stepn (1:31:38) Will STEPN Bring Crypto to the Masses? (1:36:23) Slate Star Codex Book Review (1:40:57) A Big Little Idea Called Legibility (1:42:25) The Intellectual Yet Idiot (1:42:36)
Books Mentioned:
Seeing Like a State Extreme Ownership (22:31) (Nat’s Book Notes) Scale (23:19) (Book Episode) (Nat’s Book Notes) Four Thousand Weeks (37:47) Merchants of Doubt (49:49) (Nat’s Book Notes) The Fourth Turning (1:08:55) (Book Episode) The Dictator’s Handbook (1:20:43) (Book Episode) (Nat’s Book Notes) The Conscience of a Conservative (1:39:43)
People Mentioned:
Nassim Taleb (9:06) Jocko Willink (22:32) Geoffrey West (23:19) Arthur Hayes (1:26:28) Barry Goldwater (1:39:44)
Show Topics:
1:04 Today we’re joined by Adil Majid (previously in episodes #7, #33, #34, #35, #71, #74) to cover Seeing Like a State by James C. Scott. There’s often an assumption that it’s the fault of the people when planned systems fail, when really it’s the fault of the governing body implementing these rigid systems.
5:58 There are a few major concepts in the book. One of these main concepts is legibility. A state needs to understand what’s happening on the ground and also needs a way to measure it. Scientific forestry as a way to produce timber more efficiently.
11:56 “Thus, plants that are valued become "crops," the species that compete with them are stigmatized as "weeds," and the insects that ingest them are stigmatized as "pests."”
Scott argues that there’s more variables than any of the high modernists can understand. A high modernist cannot acknowledge that there are more variables than they know, and that they are not in full control of those variables. You can’t adjust one variable and be able to fully predict all the effects.
15:01 One of the mistakes of the high modernist desire for legibility is confusing the visual external order with internal underlying order and structure. Things can have a deep sensible underlying order that does
"The despot is not a man. It is the Plan. The correct, realistic, exact plan, the one that will provide your solution once the problem has been posited clearly, in its entirety, in its indispensable harmony. This plan has been drawn up well away from the frenzy in the mayor’s office or the town hall, from the cries of the electorate or the laments of society’s victims. It has been drawn up by serene and lucid minds. It has taken account of nothing but human truths. It has ignored all current regulations, all existing usages, and channels. It has not considered whether or not it could be carried out with the constitution now in force. It is a biological creation destined for human beings and capable of realization by modern techniques."
Welcome back to another episode of Made You Think! In this episode, Nat and Neil are joined by Adil Majid to discuss their key takeaways from Seeing Like a State by James C. Scott. This book discusses how states seek to make the territory more legible in order to guide its functioning. However, this planned social order often disregards vital features of any real, functioning social order. How do certain schemes to improve the human condition end up failing?
We cover a wide range of topics including:
Government’s desire for legibility vs. local control and power Infinite coastline paradox The importance of feedback loops and adaptability in a system How high modernism has been implemented and why those implementations have failed Connections between the book and cryptocurrency
And much more. Please enjoy, and make sure to follow Nat, Neil, and Adil on Twitter and share your thoughts on the episode.
Links from the Episode:
Mentioned in the show:
High modernism (5:58) Window tax (20:25) The Blind Cafe - San Francisco (35:32) The Infinite Coastline (43:22) Rise Roar Revolt (1:07:14) India’s Economy Hinges on the Return of Workers Who Fled to Their Villages (1:14:58) Stepn (1:31:38) Will STEPN Bring Crypto to the Masses? (1:36:23) Slate Star Codex Book Review (1:40:57) A Big Little Idea Called Legibility (1:42:25) The Intellectual Yet Idiot (1:42:36)
Books Mentioned:
Seeing Like a State Extreme Ownership (22:31) (Nat’s Book Notes) Scale (23:19) (Book Episode) (Nat’s Book Notes) Four Thousand Weeks (37:47) Merchants of Doubt (49:49) (Nat’s Book Notes) The Fourth Turning (1:08:55) (Book Episode) The Dictator’s Handbook (1:20:43) (Book Episode) (Nat’s Book Notes) The Conscience of a Conservative (1:39:43)
People Mentioned:
Nassim Taleb (9:06) Jocko Willink (22:32) Geoffrey West (23:19) Arthur Hayes (1:26:28) Barry Goldwater (1:39:44)
Show Topics:
1:04 Today we’re joined by Adil Majid (previously in episodes #7, #33, #34, #35, #71, #74) to cover Seeing Like a State by James C. Scott. There’s often an assumption that it’s the fault of the people when planned systems fail, when really it’s the fault of the governing body implementing these rigid systems.
5:58 There are a few major concepts in the book. One of these main concepts is legibility. A state needs to understand what’s happening on the ground and also needs a way to measure it. Scientific forestry as a way to produce timber more efficiently.
11:56 “Thus, plants that are valued become "crops," the species that compete with them are stigmatized as "weeds," and the insects that ingest them are stigmatized as "pests."”
Scott argues that there’s more variables than any of the high modernists can understand. A high modernist cannot acknowledge that there are more variables than they know, and that they are not in full control of those variables. You can’t adjust one variable and be able to fully predict all the effects.
15:01 One of the mistakes of the high modernist desire for legibility is confusing the visual external order with internal underlying order and structure. Things can have a deep sensible underlying order that does
1 hr 39 min