Betwixt Podcast: Grounded Conversations & Embodied practices for Spiritual Wayfinding

Deb Gregory

Betwixt is a waypoint for spiritual wayfinders exploring the liminal passages that shape our lives. In each episode, Deb Gregory invites you into a grounded conversation and an embodied practice to help you navigate the spiritual life with intention and wisdom. If you’re seeking a steadier, more spacious way to walk with God, Betwixt is a companion for the journey.

  1. 4d ago

    38 Josh Davis: Inside the Sensory Rich, Embodied Wisdom of Neurodivergent Spirituality

    Autistic pastor and spiritual director Josh Davis believes it's time to start talking about shame and the expectations to mask for neurodivergent Christians. In this episode, Josh takes us inside the sensory‑rich, embodied wisdom of neurodivergent spirituality. He shares how his body processes emotional and sensory spikes, how stimming helps him settle, and why music is his “heart language”—a place to regulate and commune with God without words. We explore the surge of surprise, the role of embodied prayer, and the spiritual depth that emerges when we honor the body’s way of knowing. This episode features selections from Josh’s own music throughout. Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off ⁠SpiritualWayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom⁠ Key Themes: How surprise impacts emotional regulation and spiritualtransformation, guided by research from “surpriseologists” Tania Luna and Leanne RenningerThe significance of the surprise regulation protocol: freeze, find, shift, and shareJosh’s embodied practices for connecting with God throughsunlight, blessing, and sensory groundingThe nuances of masking versus unmasking, and the spiritualjourney of owning neurodivergent traitsThe sacred role of music as a heart language that fostersdivine communionChallenges and creative solutions for neurodivergentbelievers in church environmentsThe importance of cultivating spaces of authentic belongingand vulnerabilityHow imagination works differently in neurodivergence,including insights on aphantasia and alternative pathways to divine encounterPractical ways leaders and spiritual directors can validatediverse pathways to God and nurture neurodivergent giftsA guided reflection inspired by Psalm 34 to taste, see,hear, smell, and touch the goodness of GodResources & Links: ⁠Neurodivergent Faith Podcast⁠ ⁠Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom by Deborah Gregory⁠ ⁠Surprise by Tanya Luna & Leanne Renniger⁠ Connect with Josh Davis: Podcast: ⁠Neurodivergent Faith Podcast⁠ YouTube: ⁠Just Josh Davis (AutisticPastor)⁠   Facebook -⁠ Josh Davis⁠ Instagram -⁠@autisticpastor⁠ Music – Just Josh Davis on ⁠Bandcamp⁠ Extended Closing Meditation:  Join Josh in this embodied reflection: pause, notice one sensory experience that signals God's goodness, and breathe in divine blessing. Feel free to adapt practices for your own body, soul, and context—trusting that transformation often begins in the surprise of simply showing up as ourselves. Music: Opening Music: Palms Down by BlueDot SessionsClosing Song: "Roots" by⁠Ryvoli⁠Featured Songs by ⁠Josh Davis⁠: ⁠WhatIf⁠Desire

    38 Josh Davis: Inside the Sensory Rich, Embodied Wisdom of Neurodivergent Spirituality
  2. Jul 7

    37 Vatican Astronomer Br. Guy Consolmagno, SJ on Awe and the Universe

    Today’s guest is Br. Guy Consolmagno, SJ—astronomer, Jesuit brother, and former Director of the Vatican Observatory. Br. Guy has spent his life studying meteorites, galaxies, and the deep structure of the cosmos, all while living a profoundly grounded Ignatian spirituality. His work invites us to see scientific curiosity not as a threat to faith, but as one of its most natural expressions. In this conversation, we explore how wonder becomes a spiritual practice, how humility is woven into the fabric of the universe, and why the vastness of space can actually draw us closer to a God who delights in creation. Br. Guy shares stories from his decades of research, his unexpected path to the Jesuits, and the surprising ways science can deepen our prayer. Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off SpiritualWayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom In this episode: Why wonder is essential to both science and spiritual lifeHow Ignatian spirituality shapes the way we explore the cosmosWhat meteorites teach us about time, humility, and God’s creativityWhy the universe’s vastness doesn’t diminish us—it situates usHow curiosity can become a form of prayerThe role of joy, play, and delight in scientific discoveryWhat it means to trust a God who is both intimate and unimaginably expansiveTrail Marker: The Spiritual Gift of WonderMidway through the episode, we pause to reflect on awe as a spiritual posture. Br. Guy describes awe and wonder not as fleeting emotions but as a way of being awake to God’s presence in the world. Wonder slows us down, opens us up, and reminds us that we are creatures—finite but infinitely loved. He reminds us that the universe is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be entered. That shift—from control to curiosity—changes how we pray, how we learn, and how we live. Resources Mentioned Jesuit Guide to the Stars (Loyola Press)Vatican Observatory SpecolaVaticana Vatican Observatory Foundation God’s Grandeur: A poem by Gerard Manley Hopkins, SJ (Read by Jonathan Roumie) Connect with Deb: Flourish Spiritual Direction| Substack | Facebook | Instagram Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom Soundtrack Credits Opening Music: “Palms Down” — Blue Dot Sessions Closing Song: “Roots” — Ryvoli

    37 Vatican Astronomer Br. Guy Consolmagno, SJ on Awe and the Universe
  3. Jun 30

    36 Lacy Finn Borgo on Play, Embodied Prayer, and the Wisdom of Children

    In this Betwixt episode, Deb Gregory talks with Lacy Finn Borgo—spiritual director, Renovaré faculty member, and longtime companion to children and families at Haven House, a transitional housing community in Colorado. Lacy is the author of Spiritual Conversations with Children and Life with God for Children, books that have helped many of us reimagine children not as empty vessels to be filled, but as natural contemplatives who can lead us deeper into the heart of God. We explore how children pray with their whole bodies, how play becomes a doorway into God’s presence, and how adults can learn to listen with humility and curiosity. Lacy shares stories from her work with children navigating trauma, her research on projection and imagination, and the surprising ways children model freedom, resilience, and unselfconscious connection with God. Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom at ivpress.com/spiritual-wayfinding In This Episode How children naturally engage God through play, imagination, and embodied movementWhy adults often over-teach and under-listenThe role of projection in helping children express their inner worldHow walking side-by-side opens deeper conversationsEmbodied practices that help children (and adults) regulate anxietyWhat children teach us about failure, freedom, and spiritual courageTrail Marker: Why Poohsticks Works Midway through the episode, we pause to explore the Pooh Thought-Sticks meditation—a practice Lacy and I reference early on. We look at why this simple act of naming a thought, choosing a stick, and releasing it into moving water helps the nervous system shift from defensiveness to openness. Rather than erasing or fighting difficult thoughts, Poohsticks teaches us to acknowledge them, accept them, and entrust them to God’s care. You can download the full Poohsticks practice from Spiritual Wayfinding here: → LINK Resources Mentioned Spiritual Conversations with Children — Lacy Finn Borgo Life with God for Children — Lacy Finn Borgo Spiritual Wayfinding — Deb GregoryConnect with Lacy: Good Dirt Ministries | Substack | Facebook | Instagram Connect with Deb: Flourish Spiritual Direction | Substack | Facebook | Instagram Soundtrack Credits: Opening Music: Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions Closing Song: "Roots" by Ryvoli

  4. Jun 23

    35 Land, Community, and Indigenous Wisdom with Hoklotubbe & Zacharias

    In this episode, Deb Gregory talks with Chris Hoklotubbe and Danny Zacharias about Indigenous Christian wisdom and the role of land in shaping faith, community, and Scripture. We explore embodied practices of gratitude and reciprocity, Turtle Island hermeneutics, and the ways reconnecting with the land transforms how we read the Bible and live well. Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off SpiritualWayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom Key insights include: The importance of land-based spiritual practices rooted in Indigenous stories like Sky Woman and Turtle Island. The significance of the circle dance as a metaphor for community interpretation of scripture and life with God. How biblical stories of creation and covenant invite us into a relational view of land, moving beyond exploitation. Disrupting doctrines like the Doctrine of Discovery with asset-based Indigenous theologies recognizing God’s presence everywhere. Practical embodied practices: slowing down, saying thankyou, touching trees, and honoring the land as a spiritual act of gratitude. The role of gratitude and recognition in fostering belonging, empathy, and a sacred interconnectedness. The integration of Indigenous wisdom into Christian spirituality as a way to live well with all our relations.Timestamps:00:00 - Welcome and introduction to guests and themes of land, community, and spirituality02:09 - The embodied nature of land connection and its scientific backing04:12 - Grounding in mountains, plains, and ocean—land as a space for prayer and presence05:33 - Indigenous stories of Sky Woman, Turtle Island, and the land as a reciprocal gift10:47 - The circle dance as a metaphor for interpretive community and scriptural engagement16:42 - Co-authoring "Reading the Bible on Turtle Island" and the journey of cultural reclamation20:23 - The meaning of the book's title and the land as a story of gratitude and interconnectedness23:21 - Turtle Island hermeneutics: engagement with creation and Scripture as a relational act25:29 - Challenging the Genesis 3 narrative with asset-based theology groundedin goodness27:40 - Disrupting the Doctrine of Discovery with indigenous perspectives of land as God's gift32:03 - The garden as a space of covenantal relationship and stewardship35:13 - Embodied practices: gratitude, slowing down, and caring for trees and land39:48 - Invitation for listeners to adopt land-based mindfulness and gratitude practices43:56 - How land and nature deepen our relationship with God and the sacred story45:50 - Concluding reflections and call to ongoing dialogue and action Resources & Links:Reading the Bible on Turtle Island (book)NAITS - NorthAmerican Institute for Indigenous Theological StudiesConnect with Deb Gregory: Instagram| Flourish Spiritual Direction Website Connect with Chris Hoklotubbe: LinkedIn Connect with Danny Zacharias: Personal Website Soundtrack Credits: Opening Music: Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions Documentary Nature Music by ViacheslavStarostin Closing Song: "Roots" by Ryvoli

  5. Jun 16

    34 Weathering Change with Courtney Ellis: Birds, Nature, and Spiritual Renewal

    In today’s episode, Deb Gregory is joined by Courtney Ellisto explore the deep connections between nature, our bodies, and our spiritual journeys. Through mindful birding practices and embracing the liminal spaces of change, they reveal how tending to the natural world can help us find peace, resilience, and a sense of divine presence amid life’s transitions. In this episode: Courtney’s personal experience with birding as a spiritualpractice during a health and grief journeyThe sensory richness of birding and its embodied connectionto prayer and presenceThe metaphor of rising above narrow focus to panoramicvision for emotional and spiritual healthHow curiosity and receptivity open us to divine grace innature and in our livesThe significance of liminal and ‘thin’ spaces wheretransformation and renewal happenPractical ways to cultivate stillness, attention, and wonderduring seasons of uncertaintyThe importance of embracing one’s unique interests aspathways to God's delight and presenceInsights from Courtney’s books Looking Up and WeatheringChange on navigating grief and change through the natural worldTimestamps: 00:00 - Introduction: Navigating the spiritual life withembodied wisdom 01:12 - Exploring the spiritual practice of birding andnature connection 01:49 - Courtney’s identity and passions: birds, books, andfaith 03:06 - Bird walk as mindfulness: letting the birds ministerto us 03:42 - How health challenges led Courtney outdoors forrenewal 04:54 - How birding helps us become aware of God's presence 06:06 - Using multiple senses to deepen engagement withnature 06:40 - The gentle art of waiting, receiving, and centeringthrough birding 08:18 - The calming effects of being outdoors and observingbirds 09:09 - Faith as curiosity, wonder, and receptivity likebirding 09:34 - Letting go of trying to force faith and delightingin God’s gifts 10:28 - The role of joy and delight in discipleship &spiritual growth 11:00 - Embracing special interests as sacred pathways toGod 12:23 - Integrating passions like birding into spiritualpractices 13:39 - Courtney’s book Looking Up on grief andnatural world as balm 14:43 - Personal grief journey during her grandfather’spassing 16:03 - Scientific evidence of nature’s healing power ingrief and depression 17:00 - How awe walks foster humility and wonder 17:48 - The importance of perspective and humility inseasons of change 19:02 - The science behind panoramic vision and stressreduction during birdwatching 20:07 - Nature’s attentional resets and echoes of divinerenewal 21:32 - Courtney’s new book Weathering Change on thelessons of nature for navigating transformation 22:13 - How change impacts the body, cognition, and emotion 23:02 - Recognizing that both good and difficult changeswear us out 24:20 - Learning from animals’ acceptance of change andadaptation 25:46 - Cultivating curiosity and gentle engagement withchange 26:38 - The liminal space as a ‘thin place’ of divinemeeting and transformation 27:32 - Biblical stories of transition: Hagar, Abram, andthe wilderness 29:02 - A story of decomposition and the patience of naturalprocesses 30:34 - Practical embodied practice: Lent birding challenge 31:06 - The power of a quiet 10-minute outdoor or window sitfor spiritual renewal 33:08 - Closing reflection: We are seen, loved, and part ofthis living world Resources & Links: Looking Up: A Birder's Guide to Hope Through Grief by Courtney Ellis Weathering Change: Seeking Peace Amid Life's Tough Transitions by Courtney Ellis Courtney Ellis - Website | Instagram | Substack | Threads | X Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom (use code IVPOD25 for 25% off) Soundtrack Credits: Nature Documentary by Tunetank Opening Music: Palms Down by Blue Dot Sessions Closing Song: "Roots" by Ryvoli

  6. Jun 9

    33 Mark Buchanan on Walking as a Christian Practice and Pathway to Humility

    In this ambling conversation, Deb Gregory and Mark Buchanan offer a contemplative exploration of walking as a profound spiritual practice. They delve into how walking can ground us more deeply in humility, wonder, and intimacy with God. This episode invites us to Slow Down, notice the sacred woven into everyday life, and step more fully into the divine rhythm that surrounds us. Key Insights: The deep connection between walking, humility, and embodied spiritualityHow walking shifts us from rumination to reflection and insightThe biblical roots of walking as a spiritual act, from Eden to EmmausThe science behind embodied cognition, resonance, and synchronicity in walking with othersPractical ways to incorporate mindful walking and noticing into daily lifeThe creative and prophetic power of walking in story and novel writingHow walking can deepen intimacy with God and open us to surprising revelations TimeStamps: 00:00 - Welcome to the Betwixt podcast: Embodying wisdom in daily walks 00:17 - Introducing Mark Buchanan and the spiritual potential of walking 01:42 - Mark shares about his life, love for wild places, and what draws him outdoors 02:46 - Sent for a walk meditation, and the invitation to navigate by trees 03:38 - The Micah walk: moving into God's love and humility through walking 05:15 - How walking cultivates humility amid a culture of speed and achievement 06:50 - Walking as a humble act that reminds us of our life limits and dependence on God 08:40 - The vulnerability and humility inherent in wandering wilderness landscapes 09:56 - Self-reflection, love, and humility as we walk through our brokenness 10:43 - The transformative power of walking beyond rumination into contemplation 12:22 - Why walking is a core spiritual practice for Christians, rooted in Scripture 13:12 - The biblical and historical significance of walking in the story of faith 15:07 - Walking as a pathway to hearing from God, exemplified in the Road to Emmaus 16:06 - Walking in Sabbath and the deepened awareness of God's presence 18:38 - The surprising normality of revelation in walking, not just in sacred spaces 19:32 - The science of embodied cognition, resonance, and shared rhythm in walking with others 21:43 - Hearing from God in the body, especially through diverse neurodivergent experiences 25:27 - The mystic within us: cultivating a spiritual openness and receptivity 26:45 - The importance of opening ourselves to all ways God might show up 28:16 - The theological and scriptural affirmation that walking is embedded in our faith tradition 29:41 - How walking and surprise are woven into biblical encounters with the Divine 30:50 - Mark’s new novel and the interplay of walking, story, and courage during dark times 35:01 - The creative process of writing and how walking fuels inspiration 36:46 - Practical tips: noticing new details on familiar paths as a spiritual exercise 37:50 - Prayerful walking: turning everyday observation into ongoing conversation with God 38:41 - The sacramental beauty of the ordinary—recognizing divine whispers in daily life 39:01 - Closing the walk: an invitation to embody the sacred through simple, mindful steps Resources & Links: Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom (Use Code IVPOD25 for 25% off )Mark Buchanan’s WebsiteReflection & Practice: Take a familiar route, whether in your neighborhood or a quiet nature trail. Walk slowly, with curiosity. Notice what your senses reveal—textures, sounds, scents—and allow these details to ground you in the present moment. Pause at a point where something catches your eye—an object, a scene, or even an absence—and offer a quick prayer or reflection. Ask: What is this moment inviting me to notice about God’s presence or my own life? Conclude with a few moments of silence, sensing the quiet stillness within and around. Soundtrack Credits: Nature Documentary by Tunetank Closing Song: "Roots" by Ryvoli

  7. Jun 2

    32 Fr Brendan McManus SJ: How Pilgrimage Heals and Helps Us Find Our Way

    Join us in this contemplative conversation with Jesuit Father Brendan McManus, whose life of pilgrimage and spiritual accompaniment reveals the deep ways walking can transform our hearts and minds. Through stories of the Camino de Santiago, discernment in nature, and the embodiment of Ignatian spirituality, Brendan invites us to see walking as a sacred act of opening ourselves to divine love and presence. Use code IVPOD25 for 25% off Spiritual Wayfinding: 33 Walking Meditations for Navigating Life with Embodied Wisdom. Main insights from this episode: How walking in darkness and dawn can heighten awareness of God's light and loveThe power of embodied prayer through simple gestures and mantras during walksLong pilgrimage journeys as transformative spaces for healing grief, fear, and finding clarityThe significance of discernment in action — listening for God's voice amid movement and challengeIgnatian principles of consolation and desolation as guides for interior awarenessPractical ways to create your own pilgrimage in everyday life and small journeys at homeThe importance of silent, intentional walking for deep spiritual listeningInsights on processing grief and trauma through the body's movement and reflective practicesHow the ongoing journey continues after the pilgrimage ends, needing space for integrationGod's love as the foundation for our discernment, healing, and callingTimestamps:00:00 - Welcome and introduction to spiritual wayfinding through pilgrimage02:09 - Brendan shares about walking in the dawn and experiencing God's presence04:54 - The surprising intimacy of walking in darkness and relying on external light06:43 - Long walks in Ireland and Ireland’s pilgrim routes as catalyzers for conversion07:49 - The significance of Camino de Santiago in Brendan’s life and formation08:36 - A profound experience of prayer and trust amidst hardship on the Camino10:19 - Brendan’s journey from careers in IT and psychology to Jesuit ministry12:38 - Reflecting on walking in nature as a source of clarity and listening to God13:19 - Creating space for silence, reflection, and discerning God's call in pilgrimage15:00 - How challenges teach us about humility, moderation, and God's voice17:15 - Embodying discernment in motion, paying attention to interior movements18:46 - Questions and aspirations pilgrims bring to their journeys19:46 - The gift of Ignatian spirituality: noticing consolation and desolation22:49 - The inward and outward half-light as a trail marker for spiritual clarity26:26 - Brendan’s powerful story of grief and healing through a pilgrimage after brother's suicide28:42 - The body’s role in metabolizing grief, and the unfolding process after pilgrimage30:33 - Living the Camino back home: processing long-term transformation32:53 - Grounding in God's love and foundational trust in the spiritual journey37:59 - A simple embodied practice: asking for grace in advance before walking39:42 - Letting nature and prayer unfold naturally, not overcomplicating41:22 - A gentle invitation to observe interior movements: consolation, desolation42:21 - Trust in God's gentle companionship in every step of life’s pilgrimage Resources & Links:Spiritual Wayfinding by Deb GregoryFather Brendan McManus, SJFinding God in the Mess by Brendan McManusThe Camino de SantiagoCamino Companions MinistryIgnatian Spirituality ResourcesFeel inspired to step into your own pilgrimage—whether walking in nature, reflecting in silence, or carrying sacred rituals into daily life. Remember, God is always walking with us, inviting us deeper into love, trust, and presence. Meditation music: Documentary Nature by ViacheslavStarostin Closing Music: Roots by Ryvoli

  8. Season 3 Trailer

    Betwixt Season 3 Teaser!

    A New Season of Betwixt Podcast is on the way! Deb Gregory shares the evolution of her podcast journey—from exploring liminal spaces to embracing embodied practices that deepen our spiritual walk. She invites us into a more grounded, movement-centered approach to recognizing God's presence and discovering ourselves along life's liminal passages. Whether you're a seasoned contemplative or just beginning to tune into your body’s wisdom, this episode offers a thoughtfully grounded and nourishing perspective on spiritual transformation. Key Topics The shift from liminality to embodied spiritual practicesWhat walking meditations reveal about our internal and external worldsHow to integrate body awareness into spiritual discernmentThe role of curiosity and clarity in navigating life's passagesIncluding neurodivergent-friendly approaches in spiritual formationThe significance of trail markers—brief insights or research—to orient the journeyDeb’s new season focus: walking alongside guests through movement and inquiryHow embodied awareness can deepen our understanding of God's presencePractical ways to cultivate a steadier, more embodied spiritualityWhere to find Deb: Flourish Spiritual Direction@spiritualwayfinding on Instagram@spiritualwayfinding on FacebookTimestamps:00:00 - The evolution of Betwixt podcast from liminal spaces to embodiment00:45 - Introduction to walking meditations and their role in spiritual practice01:22 - The guest's experience: what surprised and stirred during the walk01:43 - The concept of trail markers: insights and research to guide us02:03 - Deepening conversation: whole person spirituality and embodied discernment02:36 - Walking with guests through their lived experience and body awareness03:04 - Exploring neurodivergent-friendly approaches to spiritual formation03:33 - The importance of movement, reflection, and awareness of God's presence04:02 - Invitation to join the journey and walk with God through embodied practices04:17 - Encouragement to share and find steadiness in embodied spirituality

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About

Betwixt is a waypoint for spiritual wayfinders exploring the liminal passages that shape our lives. In each episode, Deb Gregory invites you into a grounded conversation and an embodied practice to help you navigate the spiritual life with intention and wisdom. If you’re seeking a steadier, more spacious way to walk with God, Betwixt is a companion for the journey.

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