Covid-19 has forced us to acknowledge the value of freedom for ourselves and for those around us. In this launch episode, Shamillah Wilson has a conversation with activist scholar, researcher and public intellectual, Liepollo Pheko, about how our collective pain connects us. They engage on issues of grief and loss, as well as how we can hold ourselves and each other while navigating some of the complexities. Their conversation unpacks collective pain while opening up about how unique it for everyone. “Grief doesn’t always end when you throw sand on the casket”, says Liepollo Pheko as she shares her views on this topic. Listen and subscribe to Real Life Conversations with Shamillh Wilson, wherever you get your podcasts.