Ep 326 Interview Sessions with Jessica Fern & David Cooley | From Shame To Learn - Transforming the Shame Triangle

In this episode of the Always Better Than Yesterday Podcast, host Ryan Hartley sits down with psychotherapist and author Jessica Fern, alongside restorative justice facilitator David Cooley.

Together, they explore the core ideas behind their book Transforming the Shame Triangle, unpacking how shame is formed, how it operates internally, and how it shapes our relationships, leadership, and sense of self.

Drawing on Internal Family Systems (IFS), attachment theory and restorative practices, Jessica and David introduce the concept of the Shame Triangle — a powerful framework that explains the internal dynamics many of us experience daily.

Through this conversation, they reveal how our inner critic, shame responses, and coping strategies are not flaws, but adaptive parts shaped by our upbringing, culture and lived experiences.

The conversation explores the power of:

• Understanding the inner critic, shame and escape patterns

• Transforming internal conflict into self-leadership

• Moving from adversarial thinking to restorative thinking• Nervous system awareness and emotional regulation

• Building relationships rooted in safety, honesty and repair

At its heart, this episode is about moving from survival patterns into authentic living — transforming shame into self-awareness, compassion and connection.

About Transforming the Shame Triangle

Transforming the Shame Triangle introduces a practical framework for understanding and healing internal shame patterns.The model identifies three key internal dynamics:

• The Inner Critic (judgement and attack)

• The Shame Part (internalised unworthiness)

• The Escapers (coping and avoidance strategies)

The work guides people toward transformation into a Self-Love Triangle, where:

• The inner critic becomes an inner coach

• Shame softens into authentic experience

• Escapers become inner nurturers

The goal is to help individuals:

• Break repetitive emotional patterns

• Develop self-awareness and compassion

• Improve relationships and communication

• Lead themselves and others more effectively

Those with ears, let them hear.

Always love,

Ryan

Connect with Jessica & David

Jessica Fern: https://jessicafern.com

David Cooley: https://www.restorativeconversations.com

Connect with Always Better Than Yesterday

Website: https://abty.co.uk/

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Men’s Group (Akira): https://abty.co.uk/akira

Join our mailing list: https://abty.co.uk/contact

Sign up for coaching: https://abty.co.uk/coaching

Please email questions and reflections to:podcast@abty.co.uk

Chapters:

00:00 – Introduction and guest overview

02:00 – What is restorative justice in relationships

05:00 – Introducing the Shame Triangle

08:00 – Inner critic, shame and escapers explained

12:00 – Social conditioning and shame

16:00 – Shame in relationships and conflict

20:00 – Transforming shame into self-love

23:00 – Conditional vs unconditional love

26:00 – Attachment and relational safety

30:00 – Leadership and self-leadership

34:00 – Speaking from parts vs for parts

38:00 – Collective division and binary thinking

42:00 – Building shame-free leadership cultures

45:00 – Healing, practices and nervous system work

49:00 – Generational shame and inheritance

52:00 – Heartprint and legacy

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