Order Without Design: How Markets Shape Cities Devon

Alain was interviewed by our friend Anthony for a Brazilian urbanism blog called Caos Planejado. They discussed Brazilian cities, municipal financing, what it was like to live in NYC in the time of Jane Jacobs and Robert Moses, how urban planners' thinking has evolved over the course of Alain's long career, and lots more.

Transcript & photos: https://devonzuegel.com/post/owd-5-the-evolution-of-urban-utopias-guest-episode-from-caos-planejado


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Mobility is central to living in every city. In this episode, we discussed how different communities tackle the question of transportation, and how culture shapes how different transport technologies get adopted.

As usual, the conversation traveled far and wide across the globe. We talked about Bolivian intersections, Japanese trains, French jets, Thai motorbikes, German cars, Swiss crosswalks, and more.

Transcript & photos: https://devonzuegel.com/post/owd-4-supersonic-planes-levitating-trains-electric-automobiles


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Every place has some dirty secrets, even Disney World. We all have to get rid of waste somehow!

So in this episode, the Bertauds and I discuss methods of sanitation and waste management from around the world, and how these hidden systems shape our cities.

It also includes one of my favorite stories I've heard from the Alain and Marie-Agnes — but I won't spoil it for you. Let's just say it includes appendicitis, a dwindling supply of Novocaine, and a Yemeni surgeon who'd never operated on "a Christian" before.

Transcript & photos: https://devonzuegel.com/post/owd-3-disney-world-and-other-underworlds


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Alain and Marie-Agnes raised three children while living their nomadic lifestyle. So in this episode, we dug into how their role as parents shaped how they experience cities.

Join us as we roam from Bangkok to Guadalajara, Sana'a to Paris, and Port-au-Prince to NYC!

Transcript & photos: https://devonzuegel.com/owd-2-vanished-in-guadalajara


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Transcript · Audio · Photos · https://devonzuegel.com/owd-1-tea-time-in-yemen

This first episode is an introduction to the Bertauds. I was going to title it "Keeping Up With The Indiana Joneses", but I was advised against it. In this first conversation, we traveled all around the globe for a whirlwind tour of the adventurous life they've led together.

We started in Tunisia to hear about Marie-Agnes' childhood, then hopped over to neighboring Algeria, where Marie-Agnes and Alain first met. This is also when Alain was first drafted to work as an urban planner in the midst of Algeria's independence from France. 

Then, we made our way to the US, visiting NYC to hear about how Alain and Marie-Agnes started a family when they were penniless but optimistic immigrants to America.

Our next stop was Yemen, where Alain and Marie-Agnes worked for three years as urban planners and befriended Yemeni artisans, tribespeople, and farmers.

Then we picked up speed, zipping around the globe to learn about their experiences working in Bangkok, Port-au-Prince, San Salvador, and beyond and how their identity as foreigners played a role in what they were able to achieve.

The conversation then moved on to the topic of "city deflation", and how declining populations are a new challenge for cities this century. We made stops in France and Japan, and we visited cities in Russia that lost so much population after the Soviet Union fell that they were formally closed. Then we went to Detroit, where we discussed why the water was turned off and how it's a more nuanced story than is normally told when looked at through the lens of "city deflation".


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Welcome to Order Without Design, a new podcast I'm starting the most interesting couple I know: Alain and Marie-Agnes Bertaud. 

This project is an extension of their book, Order Without Design: How Markets Shape Cities. With its focus on economic theory, you might not realize that this book is the product of the adventurous life these two have shared together. This podcast series is my excuse to hear and share those stories.

Join the three of us on a journey to the Bertauds' past lives in Bangkok, NYC, San Salvador, Algiers, and beyond! We'll explore the incredible stories that informed the theories in the book.

We'll be publishing the first few episodes in the coming weeks. Subscribe to this feed now to get the first full episode delivered straight to your queue.

Chat soon 👋


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Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/order-without-design/message