Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas Tommy Thomas

Over the last 10 years or so, I've also just gotten some really good mentors in my life. People who have modeled for me what it looks like to be confident and comfortable in your own skin, to know who you are, intimately, such that, you could just live that out, shed those maybe people pleasing tendencies that some of us carry, the need to be acknowledged and celebrated, to be seen.
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Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Dr. Arthur Satterwhite. Arthur is the Vice President for Strategy at Young Life. Prior to Young Life Arthur was with the American Bible Society where he served as Manager of Strategic Partnerships and the Leader of Strategy for ABS’s largest ever domestic initiative. He took his BS in Business Administration from Monmouth University, his MA in Religious Education from New York Theological Seminary, and his Doctor of Strategic Leadership from Regent University. Let's pick up on that conversation.
[00:00:59] Tommy Thomas: Before we dive too deep into your professional career, take me back to your childhood. What was it like growing up?
[00:01:08] Arthur Satterwhite: Yeah, for what it's worth, you and your listeners, I'm a Jersey boy through and through.  Don't hold it against me. I was born, 1983 was a good year, I'll just say. My mom is also originally from New Jersey. My dad was originally from Ohio then found his way to New Jersey and grew up in Somerset. Which most people probably have never heard of, Rutgers, New Brunswick, it was right there around the corner.
I had a good upbringing. Solid, middle class, suburban community, really diverse. My mom was devout in her faith. My dad as well. But my mom was, one of those if you're not in the church, you're up to no good. Much of my childhood was spent in the church most nights, whether that was Bible study, youth group, choir, attending choir with my mom.
When I graduated high school, I left my faith behind.  I had so many questions.  I was never fully atheist, but I was firmly agnostic.
Ironically, as a millennial, you spend most of that time in the church. But when I ended up graduating high school, I left my faith behind as well. For as much time as I spent in the church, I still had so many questions that it felt like the church, or at least the church that I was going to at the time, was giving me default answers like, hey, just forget about it. You don't need to know that. Just have faith, just trust in the Lord. And, for the curious, insatiable learner that I am, that wasn't enough. So, when I went up to college, I was never fully atheist, but I was firmly agnostic. I felt like there was something there.  But what I was hearing and getting from the church just wasn't enough and it wasn't really until my early career that I came back to exploring and finding my faith.
[00:02:49] Tommy Thomas:  What was the greatest gift your parents gave to you?
[00:02:54] Arthur Satterwhite: Oh man. My dad and I joke about it to this day. One of the lessons that he has instilled into me, that's carried through most of my life is if you're grown up enough to make grown up decisions, then you're grown up enough to deal with grown up consequences, I remember him saying that to me as early as five and six years old.
Advice from my dad – if you are grown up enough to make grown up decisions, then you’re grown up enough to deal with grown up consequences.
And that's been something that has been a theme throughout my life. Before you make a decision, be confident and comfortable that you're willing to endure whatever consequences or implications may come for that decision. That I would even point to as one of the really early formative introductions to strategy for me, as I now have the privilege of leading Young Life as the VP of Strategy, the idea alone of understanding a decision and the consequences or implications of that decision is critical to strategy.
My mom, God bless her. She passed about two years ago now. Her legacy lives long a

[00:00:00] Tommy Thomas: A strong board of directors is essential to the success of any non-profit organization. The board of directors plays a critical role in providing guidance, oversight, and support for the organization’s mission and operations.
 
There is no cookie-cutter or one-size-fits-all when it comes to Nonprofit Board Governance and Board Service.  However, there is a lot we can learn from people who are active on the Boards of high impact and highly effective nonprofit organizations.
 
Over the past 104 issues, we have devoted a lot of time to this topic.  From time to time, we will highlight excerpts from some of these conversations.
 
Today is the 3rd time we are compiling these excerpts.  I will have links to the previous two episodes in the Episode Notes.
 
Christin McClave has over 20 years of corporate leadership, beginning her career with Johnson & Johnson and serving in senior leadership in her family’s large automotive aftermarket business – Cardone Industries.  Christin has served on and continues to serve on several nonprofit and corporate Boards.
I've been in this business a long time and I've worked with probably 300 or 400 boards, over the last 30 years. And if I look at them, I would say a lot of the time they're males.
They might be closer to my age than your age. And now things are changing. So, what are you seeing, or maybe what are you doing to lower the mean age on a board and to maybe bring more gender and ethnic diversity? 
[00:01:43] Christin McClave: 
So, I think we see a lot of changes in the general demographics, right?  As our society and culture are changing. The positive thing is there's so much more diversity coming up through the leadership ranks.
And I think the traditional way that we've, I'll say we, because I've done it myself as well, when we've needed a new board member on a board, I instantly think about who have I worked with before? Who's like me, who thinks like me, who would be easy to plug and play into this board that I'm on? And so that's been our traditional way of pipelining onto boards. Let's find people who we know and who we know could be very quickly successful and contribute value to this board.
I think what we've learned over the last couple years is that doesn't necessarily bring diversity to these boards that we are trying to diversify. And we've seen the pressure coming from the public sector the SEC, not quite regulations, but suggestions that we need a certain percentage of diversity on the public boards.
And there's a lot of pressure in the market for that. And then that has trickled down its way to nonprofits and to the private sector. So, everyone is looking to diversify their boards at this point. And I think, a key piece of the job requirements that we have in the past always assumed on larger boards, I'll say.
And most boards in general, everybody's wanted, okay you need to have a CEO or CFO or a C level executive. But preferably a CEO or CFO who's been in the chair before. And I've had people say that to me as well, that's what they're looking for. And I think we know just from sheer data that a lot of women and diverse candidates in general haven't had those opportunities.
We are definitely developing that pipeline now and being very much more intentional. But I think like through the past few years and now looking at the talent market being as hot as it is and the demand for diverse talent we have, we are at the place we need to take a look at those very narrow criteria that we've said, oh, you have to be a C-level executive to be on a board and to be able to contribute value. And I think, now I've seen a lot more being written, a lot more being talked about, diversity coming onto boards where I'm reading someone's background and I'm like, wow, that is so cool.
Maybe 10 years ago that person wouldn't have been chosen for that very significant board seat. So, I think we've opened up our criteria and have opened

[00:00:00] Lynn Erdman: If you want to work for somebody your entire career, be a Physician's Assistant. And so I thought, okay, that makes me think I'm going to do a nurse. So he was also instrumental and at least helped me think through the process.
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[00:00:15] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Lynn Erdman. Lynn started her career as a nurse, but it didn't take long for her leadership skills to be recognized. She rose through the ranks of nursing and moved into healthcare administration and ultimately into senior leadership in the nonprofit sector. Lynn holds a Bachelor of Science degree in Nursing from the University of North Carolina Greensboro and a Master's in Nursing from the University of South Carolina. She served as the Vice President of Medical Affairs for the American Cancer Society and the Vice-President of Community Health for Susan G. Komen for The Cure. She was the CEO of the Association of Women's Health Obstetric and Neonatal Nurses. And most recently the Executive Director for Carolina Breasts Friends in Charlotte, an organization that provides education, compassion, and support to people experiencing breast cancer. She's an adjunct faculty member at UNC Charlotte School of Nursing and a member of the consulting faculty at the Duke University School of Nursing. When she retired from her role at Carolina Breast Friends, she returned to her first love of nursing, where she is the nurse for a thriving healthcare nonprofit in Charlotte.
Let's pick up on that conversation now.
So, what are people always surprised to learn about you?
[00:01:41] Lynn Erdman: I think people are surprised that I don't like surprises.
I like to know what's going on, what's going to happen. And surprising me doesn't always work.
[00:01:54] Tommy Thomas: I interviewed a nurse. I guess the third episode of my podcast was Holly Moore. She started out in nursing and got over into, I think, as I remember, she was the first female vice president of a large pharmaceutical company.
She thought that a nursing career was one of the best careers that anybody in senior leadership could have because of the forced decision-making and the methodical decision-making. What are your thoughts on that?
It’s the creativity and the ability to figure out problems that I like the most in nursing.  You've got a patient who's struggling, you've got a team of people that can't figure out what to do with the patient, and yet together you come up with an idea and it solves the problem.
 [00:02:26] Lynn Erdman: I certainly think there's some decision-making in there, but I think it’s the creativity and the ability to figure out problems that I like the most in nursing.
You’ve got a problem in front of you. You've got a patient who's struggling, you've got a team of people that can't figure out what to do with the patient, and yet you can come up with an idea and it solves the problem. So the ability to work with lots of different people and to have the ability to question things and look for a different solution has always been something I liked about nursing.
[00:03:08] Tommy Thomas: So, think back to your first management job when you actually had people reporting to you. What are your memories?
[00:03:16] Lynn Erdman: My memories are that I didn't do a very good job. I wasn't sure what a leader was supposed to do. I thought if I just set the direction and said, this is what we're going to do for this particular project, that people would follow.
That doesn't really work. So, I had to sit down and think and say, all right that didn't work. What do I need to do? And realized pretty quickly, that the more buy-in and input I get from the team members, the better off. Whatever project it is that we're working on, the outcome is going to be a lot better if I've got some buy-in and some input.  And people at least know what they're supposed to do and they feel like they are making a difference there.
[00:04:01] Tommy T

[00:00:00] David Chadwick: Probably the first question you'd hear from me is tell me the time you were broken.
Tell me the time you failed and how did that influence your life and how did you respond to that? That's the most important quality I look for in a future employee. How have you failed? How have you been broken and how did the Lord teach you through that? Humility is the most important earmark I look for in someone's life. And if they've not gone through a tough time, if they've not had rejection, if they've not experienced failure, they probably come in with some degree of arrogance, and that will be seen at some point.
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[00:00:40] Tommy Thomas:   This week, we're continuing the conversation that we began last week with David Chadwick – Lead Pastor of Moments of Hope Church in Charlotte, North Carolina.  If you missed last week's conversation, David shared in-depth the life and leadership lessons he learned from playing basketball for the legendary Coach Dean Smith at UNC. This week, we're shifting the conversation to the 44 years that David has served as pastor in the local church. He's very transparent about the crucible for leadership training that the local church provides.
[00:01:11] Tommy Thomas: Let’s change gears a little bit. And obviously, after you played ball in Europe, you came back and finally got into the ministry. I guess you were doing the Jonah thing and it finally got into the ministry. What do you remember about your first management job when you actually had people reporting to you?
[00:01:26] David Chadwick: I came back from Europe in 1974. I played three years in the professional leagues there and then two years at the University of Florida and got a graduate degree in counseling. In my undergraduate degree, a broadcasting degree, I learned how to talk, and in my graduate degree, I learned how to listen. So, I was prepared to go to seminary and then got some great theological training.
Seminary does as good a job as it can do to prepare you for ministry, but it doesn't give you great courses on how to manage difficult people and how to handle a staff and all of that. Tommy, I came to a church here in Charlotte in 1980. It was a rather small church, and it had a couple of people on staff. I just tried to commit myself to leading them as I saw Coach Smith lead his staff and my dad as well. And that's just my highest priority - to love people, to care for people, to help them succeed, listen to them, get their input, and try to advance the church as best I can. My first management job was at that church for those first few years, just trying to manage folks as best I knew how, love my neighbor, and I made some mistakes along the way, but also had some successes too.
[00:02:39] Tommy Thomas: So successful people are often asked what makes you so successful? I like to reframe the question and say, what's a factor that has helped you succeed that most people on the outside wouldn't recognize or realize?
[00:02:54] David Chadwick: I don't know if I'm successful or not. All of that's measured by the Lord and I hope I am in His eyes. But I think, Tommy, that most success is not outward, it's done in privacy. And I would say whatever success I've had in being able to grow a church and see it, be able to minister in a community where no one sees what you do behind the scenes.
The phone calls made the prayers that were offered. The love that's extended to different people going through different crises, the hospital visitations, the counseling sessions, nobody sees that. Yet I would argue that those were the real stones used by the Lord to build a strong church.
Everything that's successful in life comes through relationships. And in those behind-the-scenes, unseen relationship-building and love of other people, that's where true success happens. And then it's just seen on the outside. And again, in ministry, that’s where true success really is built, in the relation

[00:00:00] David Chadwick: He really wasn't the kind of coach trying to give pre-game speeches to excite us and get us more enthused about playing. I think he believed that games were not just won in a locker room. I think he would believe that you play as you practice. And he believed that games were won in practices.  And he believed playing time was earned during the practices and he would watch how we practiced. And if we did practice well, we would get to play.
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[00:00:30] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is David Chadwick, the pastor of Moments of Hope Church in Charlotte, North Carolina. David graduated from the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, where he played basketball under the legendary coach Dean Smith and was a member of an NCAA Final Four Team. He has a graduate degree in counseling from the University of Florida and two degrees from Columbia Theological Seminary. David's also a radio host and the author of several books.  Let's join the conversation.
Before we dive too deep into your professional career, let's go back to your childhood.  What was it like growing up in the Chadwick household?
[00:01:11] David Chadwick: My dad was a pastor. He passed away about 15 years ago and I was raised in a preacher's kids home. Dad started out in the Moravian church centered in Winston Salem, North Carolina, largely. And then in 1953, he decided to become the senior pastor of a Presbyterian church at that point, a PCUS church in Charlotte, North Carolina.
I lived my very formative years here in Charlotte from 1953 to 1963. And it was very much a big part of my life. Much of my faith was embedded within me during those years. Then we moved to Kansas City, Kansas, where we lived, and Dad had a church in Kansas City, Missouri.
He felt like he'd done all he could do with the church in Charlotte. And so wanted a new challenge and went out there. And then my mom developed a strange allergy to cold and it came out of nowhere and Kansas City can be quite cold during the wintertime. And it threatened to close her breathing capacities and her voice.
And we had to quickly alter what God's plans were for Dad's life. Let me restate that Tommy. We had to seek God with some new ideas for our lives at that point. And strangely, by God's providence, Dad got a call to a church in Orlando, Florida. We went there for my junior and senior years. Having to move into my junior year in high school was not fun.
But it put me back on the East Coast and looking back now I can see how those were the years my basketball gifts really began to develop and of course, when I graduated from high school, I signed to play basketball at the University of North Carolina with Coach Dean Smith. That's a brief history of my background.
[00:02:57] Tommy Thomas: What do you think is the greatest gift your parents gave you?
[00:03:01] David Chadwick: Their own faith. I think faith is much more caught than taught. Though they did teach faith, they lived faith, and I saw in the different trials and vicissitudes that we would face in life that Mom and Dad really did lean on the Lord and not on their own understanding, and so I wanted who they were more than what they said.  And I think that's the greatest gift they gave me. They modeled their faith.
[00:03:28] Tommy Thomas: What did you want to be when you grew up?
[00:03:32] David Chadwick: Not a pastor. I can tell you that. I saw my dad and all that he had to go through in pastoring, so I ran as far away from that as I possibly could. I think not knowing any better, because I grew to be six feet, eight inches tall and had some basketball acumen, I dreamed, like every kid that I could play in the NBA one day, so I put most of my energies early on into just developing my basketball prowess. Also, in North Carolina, I really loved communicating and talking, so I looked at the possibility of broadcasting as a career as well.
When I graduated from North Carolina in my senior y

[00:00:00] Rich Stearns: I learned early on, just the importance of, I've said this earlier, being truthful and being a person of integrity in the workplace, you never get caught in a lie if you don't lie.
And so, some of my early bosses drill that into my head. Bad news delivered late is terrible. Bad news delivered early is the best thing. If you have bad news, deliver it early. And don't try to hide things when they're going south. Tell the boss or the management that you've got a problem early on.
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[00:00:28] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. We're continuing the conversation we began last week with Rich Stearns President Emeritus of World Vision US.  Today we will continue with Rich's leadership journey. We'll also be discussing the all-important topic of board governance. I'm so grateful to Rich for taking time from his schedule to talk with me. As we mentioned last week, the search that JobfitMatters conducted that brought Rich to World Vision literally set our practice on a trajectory that helped make the firm into what it is today.  Let's pick up on the conversation we started last week.
If you were creating a dashboard for a nonprofit to get at their health, what might the dials look like? How do you tell if a nonprofit is healthy?
[00:01:19] Rich Stearns: This is one of my pet peeves. You've got these services like Charity Navigator and almost all of these services focus on financial metrics.
What's the overhead? What's the balance sheet look like? What's the recent growth been over the last two or three years? Basically, those things have very little to do with whether a charity is a good charity, a well-performing charity, or a poorly performing charity. So, the only thing that really matters is the kind of impact that the nonprofit is having.
It's about impact. So, let's say it's a homeless ministry, right? What matters in a homeless ministry is how many of their clients actually get out of homelessness and go on to lead independent lives. That's really the outcome that you're looking for in a homeless ministry. And sometimes homeless ministries talk about how many beds they have and how many nights off the street they give their clients.
But just giving somebody a safe bed for the night doesn't solve their problem, right? So, you can say we put 300 men to bed every night, in this homeless shelter, and the next day they're on the street again and then the following day they come back to the shelter and there's nothing wrong with providing some safety for a little bit, but ultimately, you're looking for the cure, right?
How do we help these men, if they're men, get out of homelessness and get into more productive lives? But none of these charity evaluation websites talk about impact because it's so hard to measure. And it could be that the charity with the greatest impact also has high overheads. So, they get a negative rating from Charity Navigator, even though they were having a tremendous impact on the people that they're serving.
You always try to get inside the charity and say, what kind of work are you doing? And are you making an impact? Now, after that, you start to look at finances. So, at World Vision, we got into the clean water business a number of years ago. So then there's a measure called impact per dollar spent. The cost to bring clean water to one person for life through World Vision is $50. So, you tell a donor that for $50, I don't know what your water bill is, but mine's higher than $50 a month. But for $50 I can bring clean water to a person for life in Rwanda. And then I say, how many people do you want to bring clean water to?
How big a donation can you make? So that's impact per dollar, right? Impact per dollar spent. And that's the other thing I tend to look at.
[00:03:50] Tommy Thomas: Kind of a similar question. I've been asking this the last month or so and I've gotten some fascinating responses. If you were a judge on a nonprofit versio