301 episodes

A weekly podcast offering an opinionated roundup of the latest events in technology, security, privacy, and government and an in-depth interview of technology and policy newsmakers. Host Stewart Baker and regulars share their views  - and not those of the firm.

The Cyberlaw Podcast Steptoe & Johnson LLP

    • Technology
    • 4.6 • 157 Ratings

A weekly podcast offering an opinionated roundup of the latest events in technology, security, privacy, and government and an in-depth interview of technology and policy newsmakers. Host Stewart Baker and regulars share their views  - and not those of the firm.

    Episode 345: How COVID-Tracking Phone Apps Failed

    Episode 345: How COVID-Tracking Phone Apps Failed

    We interview Jane Bambauer on the failure of COVID-tracking phone apps. She and Brian Ray are the author of "COVID-19 Apps Are Terrible—They Didn't Have to Be," a paper for Lawfare's Digital Social Contract project. It turns out that, despite high hopes, the failure of these apps was overdetermined, mainly by twenty years of privacy scandalmongering and privacy laws. In essence, Google and Apple set far too strict rules for the apps in an effort to avoid privacy-based political attacks, and the governments that could have reined them in surrendered instead, in order to avoid privacy-based political attacks. So, we have no one to blame but ourselves, and our delusional enthusiasm for privacy.; In the news roundup, suddenly face recognition isn't toxic at all, since it can be used to identify pro-Trump protestors. And, of course, we have always been at war with Oceania. Dave Aitel explains why face recognition might work even with a mask but still not be very good. And Jane Bambauer reprises her recent amicus argument that Illinois's biometric privacy law is a violation of the first amendment.; If you heard last week’s episode about Silicon Valley speech suppression, you might be interested in seeing the proposal I came up with then, now elaborated into a Washington Post Op-Ed. Meanwhile, Dave reports that Parler may be back from the dead but dependent on Russian infrastructure. Dave wants to know if that means Parler can be treated by the Biden team like TikTok was treated by the Trump administration.; Dave also brings us up to speed on the latest SolarWinds news. He also casts a skeptical eye on a recent New York Times article pointing fingers at JetBrains as a possible avenue of attack. The story was anonymously sourced and remains conspicuously unconfirmed by other reporting.; Not dead yet, the Trump administration has delivered regulations for administering the executive order allowing the exclusion of risky components from the national IT and communications infrastructure. Maury Shenk explains the basics.; Speaking of which, China is getting ready to strike back at such measures, borrowing the basic blocking statute rubric invented by the Europeans. Blocking statutes can be effective, but only by putting private companies in a vise between two inconsistent legal duties. Bad news for the companies, but more work for lawyers.; I ride one more hobbyhorse, critiquing Mozilla's decision to protect "user privacy" while imposing new burdens and risks on enterprise security. The object of my ire is Firefox's Encrypted Client Hello. Dave corrects my tech but more or less confirmed that this is one more nail in the coffin for CISO control of corporate networks.; Matthew Heiman and I dig into the latest ransomware gang tactics – going after top executive emails to raise the pressure to pay. The answer? I argue for more fake emails.; In a few quick hits, Maury tells us about the CNIL's decision that privacy law prevents France from using drones to enforce its coronavirus rules.; I note a new FDIC cybersecurity rule that isn't (yay!) grounded in personal data protection.; Maury explains the recently EU advocate general's opinion, which would probably make Schrems II even less negotiable than it is now. If it's adopted by the European Court of Justice, which I argue it will be unless the Court can find some resolution that is even more anti-American can the advocate general’s proposal.; And, finally, Matthew tells us that the State Department has reorganized to deal with cyber issues – a reorganization that may not last longer than a few months.; And more. The views expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not reflect the opinions of their institutions, clients, friends, families, or pets.

    • 1 hr 15 min
    Episode 344: China and the CIA: A Wilderness of Mirror Imaging

    Episode 344: China and the CIA: A Wilderness of Mirror Imaging

    In this episode, I interview Zach Dorfman about his excellent reports in Foreign Policy about US-China intelligence competition in the last decade. Zach is a well-regarded national security journalist, a Senior Staff Writer at the Aspen Institute's Cyber and Technology program, and a Senior Fellow at the Carnegie Council for Ethics in International Affairs. We dive deep into his tale of how the CIA achieved remarkable penetration of the Chinese government and then lost it, inspiring China to build a far more professional and formidable global intelligence network.; In the news roundup, we touch on the disgraceful demonstration-cum-riot at the Capitol this week and the equally disgraceful Silicon Valley rush to score points on the right in a way they never did with the BLM demonstrations-cum-riots last summer. Nate Jones has a different take, but we manage to successfully predict Parler's shift from platform to (antitrust) plaintiff and to bond over my proposal to impose heavy taxes on social media with more than ten million users. Really, why spend three years in court trying to break ‘em up when you can get them to do it themselves and raise money to boot?; SolarWinds keep blowing. Sultan Meghji and Zach give us the latest on the attribution to Russia, the fine difference between attack and espionage, and the likelihood of direct or indirect regulation.; Pete Jeydel and Sultan cover the latest round of penalties imposed by the rapidly dwindling Trump administration on Chinese companies.; Nate dehypes the UK High Court decision supposedly ruling mass hacking He previews some Biden appointments, and we talk about the surprising rise of career talent and why that might be happening. Nate also critiques DNI Grenell after accusations of politicization of intelligence. I'm kinder. But not when I condemn Distributed Denial of Services for joining forces with ransomware gangs to punish victims; it's hard to believe that anyone could make Julian Assange and Wikileaks look responsible, but they do. Speaking of Julian, he's won another Pyrrhic victory in court – likely extending his imprisonment with another temporizing win.; And more. The views expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not reflect the opinions of their institutions, clients, friends, families, or pets.

    • 1 hr 30 min
    Episode 343: The Grim Lessons of the SolarWinds Breach

    Episode 343: The Grim Lessons of the SolarWinds Breach

    Episode 343 of the Cyberlaw Podcast is a long meditation on the ways in which technology is encouraging other nations to exercise soft power inside the United States. I interview Nina Jankowicz, author of How to Lose the Information War on how Russian disinformation has affected Poland, Ukraine, and the rest of Eastern Europe – and the lessons, if any, those countries can offer a divided United States.; In the news, Bruce Schneier and I dig for more lessons in the rubble left behind by the SolarWinds hack. Nobody comes out looking good. Persistent engagement and defending forward only works if you’re actually, you know, engaged and defending, and Russia's cyberspies managed (not surprisingly) to have hidden their achievement from NSA and Cyber Command.; More and better defense is another answer (not that it's worked for the last 40 years it's been tried). But whatever solution we pursue, Bruce makes clear, it's going to be expensive.; Taking a quick break from geopolitics, Michael Weiner gives us a rundown on the new charges and details (mostly redacted) in the Texas case against Google for monopolization and conspiring with competitor Facebook. The scariest thing about the case from Google's point of view, though, may be where it’s been filed. Not Washington but Beaumont, Texas, the most notoriously pro-plaintiff, anti-corporate jurisdiction in the country.; Returning to ways in which foreign governments are using our technology against us, David Kris tells the story of the Zoom executive who used pretextual violations of terms of service to take down speech the Chinese government didn't like, censoring American efforts to hold a Tiananmen memorial. The good news: he was indicted by the Justice Department. The bad news: I can't help suspecting that China learned this trick from lefty ideologues in Silicon Valley.; Aaand, right on cue, it turns out that China's been accused of using its 50-cent army to file complaints of racism and video game violence to get YouTube to demonetize Americans using the platform to criticize China's government.; Then Bruce points us toward a deep and troubling series of Zach Dorfman articles about how effectively China is using technology to vault over US intelligence agencies in the global spying competition.; And in quick succession, David Kris explains what's new and what's not in Israel's view of international law and cyberconflict.; I note that President Trump's NDAA veto has been overridden, making the cyberczar and DHS's CISA the biggest winners in the cyber policy arena.; Bruce and I give a lick and a promise to the FinCen proposed rule regulating. We're both inclined to think more reregulation is worth pursuing, but we agree it's too late for this administration to get anything on the books.; David Kris notes that Twitter has been fined around $550K over a data breach filing that was a few days late – by the Irish data protection office, in a GDPR ruling that is a few years late.; Apple has lost its bullying copyright battle against security start-up Corellium but the real risk to Corellium may be in the as-yet unresolved claim for violation of the DMCA.; And Trump's DHS is leaving office with new warnings about the cyber risks of Chinese technology, this time touching on backdoors in TCL smart TVs and spillage from Chinese data services.; And more. The views expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not reflect the opinions of their institutions, clients, friends, families, or pets.

    • 1 hr 25 min
    Episode 342: Could European Privacy Law Protect American Child Molesters?

    Episode 342: Could European Privacy Law Protect American Child Molesters?

    The views expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not reflect the opinions of their institutions, clients, friends, families, or pets.Our interview is with Alex Stamos, who lays out a complex debate over child sexual abuse that’s now roiling Brussels. The application of European privacy standards and AI hostility to internet communications providers has called into question the one tool that has reduced online child sex predation. Scanning for sex abuse images works well, and even scanning for signs of “grooming” is surprisingly effective. But they depend on automated monitoring of communications content, something that has come as a surprise to European lawmakers hoping to impose more regulation on American tech platforms. Left unchanged, the new European rules could make it easier to abuse American kids. Alex explains the rushed effort to head off that disaster – and tells us what Ashton Kutcher has to do with it (a lot, it turns out).; Meanwhile, in the news roundup, Michael Weiner breaks down the FTC's (and the states’) long-awaited antitrust lawsuit against Facebook. Maybe the government will come up with something as the case moves forward, but its monopolization claims don’t strike me as overwhelming. And, Mark MacCarthy points out, the likelihood that the lawsuit will do something good on the privacy front is vanishingly small.; Russia’s SVR, heir of the KGB, is making headlines with a remarkably sophisticated and well-hidden cyberespionage attack cyberespionage attack on a lot of institutions that we hoped were better at defense than they turned out to be. Nick Weaver lays out the depressing story, and Alex offers a former CISO’s perspective, arguing for a federal breach notification law that goes well beyond personal data and includes disciplined after-action reports that aren’t locked up in post-litigation gag orders. Jamil Jaffer tells us that won’t happen in Congress any time soon.; Jamil also comments on the prospects for the National Defense Authorization Act, chock full of cyber provisions and struggling forward under a veto threat. If you’re not watching the European Parliament tie itself in knots trying to avoid helping child predators, tune in to watch American legislators tie themselves into knots tie themselves into knots trying to pass an important defense bill without drawing the ire of the President.; The FCC, in an Ajit Pai farewell, has been hammering Chinese telecoms companies. In one week, Jamil reports, the FCC launched proceedings to kick China Telecom out of the US infrastructure, reaffirmed its exclusion of Huawei from the same infrastructure, and adopted a “rip and replace” mandate for US providers who still have Chinese gear Chinese gear in their networks.; Nick and I clash over the latest move by Apple and Google to show their contempt for US counterterrorism efforts – the banning of a location data company whose real crime was selling the data to (gasp!) the Pentagon.; Mark explains the proposals for elaborate new regulation elaborate new regulation of digital intermediaries now working their way through -- where else? – Brussels. I offer some cautious interest in regulation of “gatekeeper” platforms, if only to prevent Brussels and the gatekeepers from combining to slam the Overton window on conservatives’ fingers.; Mark also reports on the Trump administrations principles for US government use of artificial intelligence government use of artificial intelligence, squelching as premature my celebration at the absence of “fairness” and “bias” cant.; Those who listen to the roundup for the porn news won’t be disappointed, as Mark and I dig into the details of Pornhub’s brush with cancellation at the hands of Visa and Mastercard – and how the site might overcome the attack.; In short hits, Nick and I disagree about Timnit Geb

    • 1 hr 12 min
    Episode 341: It's Time to Pay Attention When Attention Stops Paying

    Episode 341: It's Time to Pay Attention When Attention Stops Paying

    Did you ever wonder where all that tech money came from all of a sudden? Turns out, a lot of it comes from online programmatic ads, an industry that gets little attention even from the companies, such as Google, that it made wealthy. That lack of attention is pretty ironic, because lack of attention is what's going to kill the industry, according to Tim Hwang, former Google policy maven and current research fellow at the Center for Security and Emerging Technology (CSET).; In our interview, Tim Hwang explains the remarkably complex industry and the dynamics that are gradually leaching the value out of its value proposition. Tim thinks we're in an attention bubble, and the popping will be messy. I'm persuaded the bubble is here, but not that its end will be disastrous outside of Silicon Valley.; Sultan Meghji and I celebrate was seems like excellent news about a practical AI achievement in predicting protein folding. It's a big deal, and an ideal problem for AI, with one exception. The parts of the problem that AI hasn't solved would be a lot easier for humans to work on if AI could tell us how it solved the parts it did figure out. Explainability, it turns out, is the key to collaborative AI-human work.; We welcome first time participant and long-time listener Jordan Schneider to the panel. Jordan is the host of the unmissable ChinaTalk podcast. Given his expertise, we naturally ask him about … Australia. Actually, it's a natural, because Australia is now the testing ground for many of China's efforts to exercise power over independent countries using cyber power along with trade. Among the highlights: Chinese tweets highlighting a report about Australian war crimes followed by hamhanded tweet-boosting bot campaigns. And in a move that ought to be featured in future justifications of the Trump administration's ban on WeChat, the platform refused to carry the Australian prime minister's criticism of the war-crimes tweet. Ted Cruz, call your office!; And this will have to be Sen. Cruz's fight, because it looks more and more as though the Trump administration has thrown in the towel. Its claim to be negotiating a TikTok sale after ordering divestment is getting thinner; now the divestment deadline has completely disappeared, as the government simply says that negotiations continue. Nick Weaver is on track to win his bet with me that CFIUS won't make good on its order before the mess is shoveled onto Joe Biden's plate.; Whoever was in charge of beating up WeChat and TikTok may have left government early, but the team that's sticking pins in other Chinese companies is still hard at work. Jordan and Brian talk about the addition of SMIC to the amorphous Defense blacklist. And Congress has passed a law (awaiting Presidential signature) that will make life hard for Chinese firms listed on US exchanges.; China, meanwhile, isn't taking this lying down, Jordan reports. It is mirror-imaging all the Western laws that it sees as targeting China, including bans on exports of Chinese products and technology. It is racing (on what Jordan thinks is a twenty-year pace) to create its own chip design capabilities. And with some success. Sultan, newly dubbed the podcast's DeHyper, takes some of the hype out of China's claims to quantum supremacy. Though even dehyped, China's achievement should be making those who rely on RSA-style crypto just a bit nervous (that's all of us, by the way).; Michael Weiner previews the still veiled state antitrust lawsuit against Facebook and promises to come back with details as soon as it's filed.; In quick hits, I explain why we haven't covered the Iranian claim that their scientist was rubbed out by an Israeli killer robot machine gun: I don't actually believe them. Brian explains that another law aimed at China and its use of Xinjian forced labor is attracting lobbyists but likely to pass. Apple, Nike, and Coc

    • 1 hr 6 min
    Episode 340: Henry Kissinger and Michael Daniel on How to be a Cyber Czar

    Episode 340: Henry Kissinger and Michael Daniel on How to be a Cyber Czar

    Our interview in this episode is with Michael Daniel, formerly the top cybersecurity adviser in the Obama NSC and currently the CEO of the Cyber Threat Alliance. Michael lays out CTA’s mission. Along the way he also offers advice to the Biden cyber team – drawing in part on the wisdom of Henry Kissinger.; In the news roundup, Michael joins Jamil Jaffer and Nate Jones to mull the significance of Bruce Reed’s appointment to coordinate technology issues in the Biden White House. Reed’s tough take on Silicon Valley companies and section 230 may form the basis of a small-ball deal with Republicans on things like child sex abuse material, but none of us think a broader reconciliation on content moderating obligations is in the offing.; When it comes to regulating the tech sector, Brussels is a fount of proposals. The latest, unpacked by Jamil and Maury Shenk, is intended to build on the dubious success of GDPR in jumpstarting the EU’s technology industry.; Maury and I puzzle over exactly how a Russian divorcee won a court order allowing access to her estranged son’s Gmail account. Our guess: the court stretched a point to conclude that the son had consented.; Another day, another China-punishing measure from the Trump administration: Jamil explains the administration’s vision of a bloc of countries that will unite in resistance to China’s punitive trade retaliation against inconvenient Western countries, most notably Australian, now getting hit hard by China.; Meanwhile, Maury reports that the administration has identified nearly 90 Chinese companies that are too closely tied to the Chinese military for purposes of export control licenses. The only good news for US exporters is that the list eliminates some ambiguity about the status of some companies.; Maury also gives an overview of what most of us think is an oxymoron: Privacy in China. In fact, there is growing attention to protecting privacy at least from commercial companies. And harsh enforcement, as always, makes observers wonder “who did that company piss off?” before they wonder “what did that company do wrong?”; Maury also reports on the effort to revive Privacy Shield – and on just how little the negotiators have to work with.; Jamil comments on the ever-rising cost of cybersecurity, and possible implications for bank consolidation.; Nate reviews the privacy and security doubts about Amazon’s Sidewalk feature, which turns Alexa devices into neighborhood WiFi networks.; Maury and I not that the deadline for a TikTok sale is still a week away and maybe always will be.; Jamil wonders why ZTE asked the FCC to reconsider its exclusion of the company from the US telecoms infrastructure. The FCC order denying the request was not exactly a marketing triumph.; Jamil and I have fun asking how much snooping will go on in a proposed new fiber-optic network linking Saudi Arabia and Israel.; Nate is not surprised that France is pushing its tax for the (US) tech sector, but we debate whether the timing will turn out to be good for France or bad. I claim that White House ADHD is France’s best friend.; Maury and I try to figure out whether there’s a public policy case in favor of the Rivada plan to take over a bunch of DoD spectrum and rent out whatever is excess to DoD needs. Maybe there is, but we can’t find it.; And more. The views expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not reflect the opinions of their institutions, clients, friends, families, or pets.

    • 1 hr 14 min

Customer Reviews

4.6 out of 5
157 Ratings

157 Ratings

Sydney MW ,

I can’t wait for the next episode.

The Cyberlaw Podcast is witty, always informative, and cutting edge.

jwsteigerwalt ,

Civil debate

Stewart is the model of civil a debater. You can tell who he agrees with and who he does not but the show does not degrade to the common form of pundits talking past each other. I doubt his mind is changed often, but respecting and comprehending his opponents points provides a rich conversation.

MendelG ,

Cool interviews

Great questions being asked and great guests :)

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