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Human Conversation with Leah JM Dean

Guest: Leah JM Dean She is the Founder and Chief Executive Officer of Conduit International Ltd a professional and personal development solutions company dedicated to helping organizations, leaders and women work smarter, live well, and foster meaningful connections. With over two decades of experience, Leah has shaped leading HR strategies and served as a trusted coach and advisor to thousands of leaders, employees, and women across the globe. Leah has also led teams and has experience in Strategy Development, Mergers & Acquisitions, Boards & Governance, Professional Speaking, Facilitation, Executive Search, Corporate Communications, Facilities, Administration, and Corporate Social Responsibility. As the CEO of Conduit International LTD, Leah and her team have worked across diverse industries, including insurance, reinsurance, education, non-profit, faith-based, financial services, food and beverage, and business consulting. Leah holds an MBA from St. John’s University and is a certified strengths coach. She is also the author of two books Be Different & Assemble the Tribe, which was named Bermuda’s most popular book of the year in 2021. A self-proclaimed recovering workaholic, Leah is passionate about helping women and organizations to find strategies to optimize their work, invest in their wellbeing and make a lasting impact on the lives of those they touch. When she is not working, Leah enjoys reading, writing, walking in nature, and spending quality time with family and friends. She lives in Bermuda with her husband Terrance and two children. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:KG: You've done so many different things. You've had an impactful career in corporate leadership, speaking, training, coaching, writing, mentoring all over the world. Is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you? I was curious about the driving force behind all that you do.LEAH: I had to say that there was a thread, I think the thread that weaves, that has woven its way through everything for me, it really comes back to my mind.LEAH: I guess if I had to sum it all up, my why in this season and my why for my work and my business is about helping organizations and leaders and women to work smart, to live well and connect with people.LEAH: I'm a strengths coach, so I believe we all have strengths and talents that we can develop into strengths and we should look to unleash that unlock it, the live well piece it's I think we're whole people and so there's the part of us that shows up at work. There's a bus that are leaders there's a gift that we have to give to the organization. But so many leaders do that at the sacrifice of themselves and so how can we live well? And then the connect people has just been my work for the last seven years or so, how do we build community? We need community to live our healthiest, happiest lives. And so all the work that I'm doing every day kind of plays.KG: What a beautiful thought. It makes space for varying focus areas and varying needs in different stages of life, but also enables people to identify core values that drive a person forward.LEAH: My experience is that your purpose, or purpose by definition, is the reason you exist. You are literally your purpose when you walk into the room and how that purpose is delivered or resonates or shows up in different seasons will change.LEAH: When you leave yourself open to the possibility of change, like the world just opens up in a much bigger way than if we put ourselves in these boxes.KG: What is your idea of ethics and leadership? What do those stumps mean to you?LEAH: Ethics are the principles of conduct that govern an individual or group. They're the principles that drive us as individuals or groups of people. Integrity is really about adherence to a code of values.LEAH: Values is like the anchor. It's the thing that, they're the things that keep you grounded in what matters. And then ethics is like the chain connected to the anchor. They connect to your anchor, your daily decisions, they give structure and tension. And then integrity is like the steadiness of the vessel. It shows if your anchor and your chain are keeping you from drifting when the current shifts.LEAH: Values are what you believe is important. Ethics create the rule to honor those beliefs. And then integrity is how you live them out when they're watching.KG: Do you have a personal story of a time when you had to navigate a different difficult ethical dilemma? But how would the outcome of that incident might have been?LEAH: Values, there's deep fundamental beliefs. They're both actual and aspirational. I've learned is that as we grow and as we develop, if we accept that we each have the capacity for change, then it's also possible that our beliefs are going to change, which means the chain and the tension is also going to change over time as well.LEAH: When we're navigating these issues, I think it's really important that we leave some room to grow, that we leave some room for grace. And then we also have to remember that a lot of the deep work that we're going to do is actually in the gray.KG: A lot of dilemmas and leadership is around the fact that there is no one true clear answer. It's so contextual and you're saying what's important is to maintain a sense of agility and fluidity instead of brittleness and rigidity around looking at things with the binary lens.LEAH: Shortly into my tenure I was asked to do something from a values and ethics perspective. I just thought it was unethical. And so my answer has to be that under no circumstance can I do that thing that you're asking me to do. And so at the end of the day, this is the decision that you have to make.LEAH: Sometimes when we think that there are these values and ethics that we stand on, we think that we should know the right answers all of the time. Sometimes what we really need to do is take a step back and as you said, give ourselves space to consider all of the options.LEAH: These issues that we navigate are never one dimensional. They're often complicated. These issues are going to come up again and again and again. And in some ways it feels like we even more increasing frequency right now and I think if we give ourselves the space to say what's the right answer for this moment I think that we will find ourselves in a better place.KG: These days, taking a stance seems like a dangerous thing to do. That you'll alienate some people, that you'll figure out this is what you care about and being seen and being authentic can sometimes feel dangerous because of public scrutiny, because leaders can be cancelled and they are quite often.KG: In all of this, what gave you the strength and the clarity to say this is important and I'm okay to take a stance? How can someone evaluate for themselves and make a timely decision on whether or not to take a stance? Can you share a little bit about how you thought it through?LEAH: I think there's two deciding factors. One is value. So for me, one of my values is trust. And the definition that I use for trust for me, for my trust value, is trust is where your intent and your behavior line up.LEAH: I want to lean into the work smart part of my mission. The other thing that I think helps me is some of my strengths can be very, some of them have a force to them. There's part of me that says, how can I turn the strength on myself to make sure I do the right thing? And so that's part of how I kind of processed how I was going to show up. Like, yes, it's uncomfortable. Yes, you don't really like it, but you have the strengths of responsibility and command and activator.LEAH: If the goal is for the organization to achieve results, if the goal is to bring people together, then we owe it to ourselves and the organizations and the situations to have these conversations. And for me, my value said I had to give back.KG: Do you have any observations on ethical dilemmas most relevant today? And what would your advice be to professionals, leaders, organizations?LEAH: How do we deal with the divisiveness that we see as people pick a spot and then dig in and entrench into those corners? And so the dilemma that a leader often has is do I then couple that with my own beliefs and values and then double down in that space? Or is there something else that I should be doing?LEAH: My reflections come from my last piece of work, which is a book that I wrote. It's more of a faith-based book. It's called Be Different.LEAH: I often take a piece of work and I say, how could I apply that in a leadership context? And so there is a model that is embedded in this whole idea of being different in that book. And when I apply that from a leadership context, it pushes me to ask leaders to first ask the question, how can I be different? LEAH: There's five pillars. 1) Listen Different 2) Trust Different 3) Think Different 4) Talk Different 5) Live DifferentLEAH: The simple definition that I use for that is leadership is about unlocking the greatness in others to achieve results, right? And so if I want to unlock the greatness in my team that has very different views, then what is it that I need to do in order to get to that place that allows us to move forward together?And I would contend that the answer that every leader has to challenge themselves with is how can I be different in the gray.KG: How does that work in a rapidly evolving world with so much uncertainty, so much accelerated change, and with a lot of uncertainty also in how do we create an AI-empowered, fair world and not an AI-driven chaos where we can't quite control these very systems that we half-bakedly built. Can you help me understand how this framework that you're recommending will fit the leaders operating in this level of uncertainty too?LEAH: I watched this TED Talk on emotion and stress. And the particular speaker, she said, often we are afraid of certain things, but actually we need to use that stress and discomfort as a b

38 min

12/02/2025

Human Conversation with Dr. Saman Sarbazvatan

Guest: Dr. Saman Sarbazvatan Prof. Saman works at the intersection of Technology, Education, and Business, driving Digital & Responsible Innovation and Transformation. As the COO and Vice Dean of Ecole des Ponts Business School of ecole nationale des ponts et chaussées (ENPC) and Founding Director of ReTech Center, he is a global thought leader helping entrepreneurs, executives, and decision makers navigate the Responsible Transition toward Industry 5.0. HIGHLIGHTS/TAKEAWAYS: KG: You've had such an interesting career since 2000 in technology, in academia and business, how do you interconnect these domains and what drives you through all of this?DR. SAMAN: Since I was riding the tip of a very nice wave of technological transformation that I was lucky, of course, but that's how this store was remained open. You get to the point that, you would like to get engaged with more organizational and leadership aspects beyond the technology as a tool, as an enabler, but rather in terms of how decisions are made organizationally and everything else.DR. SAMAN: As you're working in technology, you're always using all the tools that you're very much informed about the reality of things, whether it be, metrics and measures for sustainability or socioeconomic, sort of implications of digital transformation up to governance and leadership aspects, which are very, very broad. So that's the way that I carved my way through was through the convergence of digital transformation with the responsible transition, which includes sustainability, circular economy, ESG, SDGs, and all the elements of responsible transition.DR. SAMAN: I'm actually really lucky because what we do here, especially at this school, working with executives, that's very enriching for me personally, but also for the work that we do. You know, with our community of alumni and participants. Because that is how we make sense of things. We bring something more meaningful than just studying or getting a degree or investing in something just for financial growth. We really look beyond that because we have that common interest and that's the value that gathers us all around what we do collectively.KG: How would you describe ethics and integrity in your context of the digitally empowered responsible transformation?DR. SAMAN: This from retrospective to foresight driven sort of ethics is one very important pillar that I can share. The other could be like the move from rule-based compliance to value aligned design in which, the move from as seen as external rules or legal requirements to be followed, this move from that side to the internalized sort of purpose-driven design that we have for our businesses and economies. Again, the angle is the desirable emerging futures, where organizations align the operations and supply chains and technologies and business models all around an embedded sort of ethics and integrity.DR. SAMAN: We can also think about from a binary trade between right and wrong to navigating like tensions and paradoxes and trade-offs because now the economies and markets that we engage with today increasingly are interconnected and over complex.KG: Are you noticing any pattern, as you're working with corporates and companies tackling the very cutting edge of technology? Are you noticing one particular stream more relevant to companies over the others as they're thinking about responsible technology?DR. SAMAN: Like the retrospective one to foresight driven and, embedding ethics and integrity into foresight. Industry leaders and also purpose-driven innovators that understand the implications of this digitally empowered economy that must be responsible because digital transformation is not going to slow down and every day we see more innovative ways of integrating technology in our personal professional lives.DR. SAMAN: These forces are coming together, those who are leading markets and industries and those innovators who are shaping the emerging futures of markets and societies, they work with it very directly. Those who are more receiving the consequences of this shift from rule-based compliance to value-aligned design. Those are companies who integrate ethics and integrity in the operation and leadership structures of not only their own organizations, but also they provide the tools for others as well to do so.DR. SAMAN: The one that about like from binary ethics to the complex tradeoffs, this is mostly I think well perceived and understood by all those who are engaging with the digital economy either directly or they are impacted by the shifts in the digital economy and also they interact with socioeconomic, socio-environmental dimension of their industry which means that they have a more sort of proactive engagement with their stakeholders either through investors and policy makers or through users and partners and clients.KG: What's your observation with Big Tech and how do you work with them to create that vision you have for a responsible future and ethical future in technology?DR. SAMAN: The pressure is there and that's one of the drivers of this transition to the responsible economy. So the driver for the digital transformation is of course competitiveness. There are many drivers for digital transformation like driving innovation, remaining competitiveness. But for the responsible transition,the pressure is coming from stakeholders, from policy and regulatory bodies, from investors, from consumers, from partners.DR. SAMAN: These pressures are very productive and of course they sort of push our markets and industries towards a more responsible sort of way of leveraging the capital and their assets. So what happens is that now increasingly we are collaborating with international organizations from businesses to government bodies.DR. SAMAN: So I think for me, it's like you need to embrace this pressure that comes. Of course, it's not easy, especially for larger organizations, like this is like a very strong competitive advantage for startups because you work on the cultural dimensions and a lot around change management and transformation.DR. SAMAN: The whole dynamic that is created around this move towards the digitally empowered responsible economy is making it very interesting to watch. Of course, it's like watching a dance floor. You get bored if you don't dance. So those who don't want to engage with the change, they won't enjoy it as much as those who are engaging with the change and transformation either receiving or, providing services and by any means that they can, they do something.KG: Do you have any perspective or take you want to share on those kinds of environments where digital transformation is inevitable and it's going to be everywhere? Some states perhaps are not there yet in terms of capability to partner well and to monitor and then delegating governance. Would you share some perspectives or advice on such environments?DR. SAMAN: If you contrast like this model of delegating governance versus too much of centralization as we see in advanced economies, which mostly are not yet at the capacity that they could be, the common element in both models that is contributing to this inefficiency, is the gap of skills. It's the gap of skills that touches all domains, like gap of skills in leadership and governance by itself, gap of skills.DR. SAMAN: Why does it matter? Because now moving forward, it's like the digitally empowered responsible transition requires our leadership and governance models to reflect both the digital transformation what can be done with it, what are their impacts, how would it change the way we do things and also the responsible transition like for example, depending on the region but generally speaking like circular economy and SDGs and SDGs.DR. SAMAN: This skills, the gap of skills in leadership and governance, the gap of skills in technology, operational aspects of the responsible transition like sustainable practices, regenerative practices, like all industries, from fashion, agriculture, energy, manufacturing, of course, all of them are impacted.KG: Have you come across any examples where perhaps they come close to what you're describing in either model and they're doing it well?DR. SAMAN: One of the contributions that we have is with the European Commission's community of practice of Industry 5.0 which ReTech Center is an official member of and there with other partners under the leadership of the EU Commission we drive practical aspects of the transition to Industry 5.0, is sustainability and technology together. So they represent a good role model for driving this. The EU Commission by itself is a great example.KG: Have you had a personal experience where you had to navigate a difficult ethical dilemma? I'm curious about how such experiences have shaped your own approach moving forward because you're so deeply involved in creating a sustainable ethical future. Would you have an example you'd like to share?DR. SAMAN: When I was working on more hands-on sort of keyboard as we say. It was, we knew the potentials of the market. We could see the potentials of the market because we were developing solutions. And over time you start thinking about the socioeconomic and socio-environmental value of what is being you know, sort of delivered, sold, bought, you know. And then, you start questioning like, how else could it be done? How could it, you know, technology can be great tool? Why not focusing more on like enabling aspects of it rather than just driving the financial gains?DR. SAMAN: I have to step up and if I believe that something can be done and if I know how to do it, I need to share it and academia is a great platform to share.KG: Did you face any hurdles in making your vision come true? That it's not just the economic drivers around profitability, but we could think about a sustainable future too.DR. SAMAN: The type of challenges and hurdles that I observed and worked with. So I brought them together

1h 21m

11/05/2025

Human Conversation with Tini Fadzillah

Guest: Tini Fadzillah Tini Fadzillah is an executive coach and trainer based in Singapore with clients throughout Asia. She specializes in coaching C-suite and senior executives in performance, leadership and change; with a reputation of surfacing and creating sustainable shifts to the underlying conversations needed to unlock a leader’s full potential and drive results. Tini co-founded TWP in South East Asia in 1996 and has worked with thousands of people from diverse cultures on both personal and professional goals. Her passion is working with people to design a compelling future and to translate their goals into reality. Tini is a Newfield Certified Ontological Coach and is an MCC level certified coach with the International Coaching Federation. Her clients include PETRONAS, La-Prairie, Aditya Birla, Prudential, AXA, Singapore Airlines, Mastercard, Save the Children, Eastspring Investment and Afton Chemical. Tini is a passionate advocate for the role of the body in creating a powerful leadership presence. She is certified to use Tension Releasing Exercises™ and Wendy Palmer’s Leadership Embodiment curriculum. She also co-designed and delivered the “Women and Leadership Presence” program and was an active member of the team that designed the Character Building component of the National Service in Malaysia. Tini is also a certified health coach and embeds wellness within her coaching narratives as well. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:KG: You're a leader of one of the eminent coaching, training companies, and education companies out there. You continue to do different kinds of work. I know that you coach, you train, you podcast, you write, you mentor. Is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you? What's the driving force behind all that you do?TINI: Absolutely, and that's people. One of the things I always say is that I absolutely love working with people. I have a firm belief that people wake up in the morning going, how can I do a good job today? And some people hit the mark and some people don't. I get to work with people who have the courage to go, let's try something different. And it's easy for me to say it, but for my clients who really are willing to let go of some of their long-held beliefs is just really courageous. And for them to be able to see the outcome of that is just, it's crazy that I get paid to do what I do. I love people. And that's the thread that runs through everything I do.KG: What was your journey that got you to this version of you, where you said, I love people. This is what I want to do. And here's how I'm going to show up in the world?TINI: I'm going to say the way I was raised was one of the reasons why I'm here. If you can imagine my whole life up to university where I left home was really about and if you read The book, The Purple Book of Coaching, I talk about this, which is from day young, when I was really young. I just remember us always having these conversations around my dad's work, around some challenges he would have, and they're all linked to relating.TINI: One of the things that I learned, which bridges into the work I do today, is that everyone wants to do a good job. I do believe that. Some people hit it, some people don't. And I don't think anyone wakes up in the morning and says, okay, today's the day I'm gonna do a really bad job.TINI: My role, and a lot of coaches do this, is our job, if the client wants this, is to support them to create a different future. So to answer your question about where did this come from, I'm going to say it's from my parents, certainly from my dad's work. I still love seeing what's happening in the world platform, in the world stage and just the relationship breakdowns that are happening or the lack of capacity for this or that, or with some people who are doing it really well.KG: Tell me a little bit more about what that book (The Purple Book of Coaching) means to you and what your objectives are in bringing that book to the world?TINI: We have access to some of the great experts in the field of performance in the field of somatics or the body, emotions, language, ontology, which is the umbrella of it all. And we work with them day in, day out, day in, day out. And people who get to access them are the ones who register for a program or have contracted us to do a program in their organization. We wanted to get some of this wisdom together in a book that's accessible to people globally, beyond just when they sign up for a program. And so that's really the objective.TINI: The objective or the drive is to impact human beings. Our objective, I love what I do and it's a tool for people to design the future that they're compelled by, full stop. And so if this is one of the platforms that people can access so that they can, in my chapter, I talk about relationships, that they can really take a look at the distinctions that I'm suggesting impact the quality and effectiveness of relationships and that makes a difference to someone living in the USA, why not? That's really the objective, to collate the wisdom and curate something that everyone can access if they want.KG: If there were a one line summary of what the Purple book stands for, what's the message that you're putting out there?TINI: The book's objective is for people to leave knowing that you can design your future. You really can, regardless of the historical narratives.KG: You create a very positive future, the potential is always positive and uplifted and elevated. How are you able to tie those two things together? What is right in the world?TINI: Relationships are everywhere. The question here is, where are you thriving in the relationships that you are creating? Where do you feel you can improve? Things happen in life that something that looked like it was thriving may plummet. And for a window of time, you're not thriving, such as after the death of a loved one. And so you may plummet a bit and your relationship with death, your relationship with loneliness, et cetera, might surface. And so that's really the link I would start with. Would start with relationships happening everywhere.KG: Ethics and integrity, what do they mean to you?TINI: Someone's capacity to create a fulfilled life, is the link, which is not always about happy. Sometimes it's about what's fulfilling for me. It can include happy. It can include contribution. And so the link to Ethics, integrity is to be in line with what matters to you in my world.KG: Would you feel comfortable sharing a personal example where you felt challenged, but you navigated through it while feeling one, you stayed aligned with your values and two, you were satisfied with how you showed up in that situation?TINI: The story of being a mom and being a mom to a child with special needs. I actually think it was my values that had me and what mattered to me, that really had me get on this journey.TINI: There is that transitional moment and my capacity to have my values align myself to create the clarity and designing my future.TINI: For those who might be starting their journey, it might be like, it's still really gray and cloudy. And that's okay because we become stronger. It could be that there was a breakdown in the organization. It could be that you need to lay off a whole bunch of people and it could be anything that you perceive as a breakdown. I know it's the value of the work that I did, because I was already doing this work and now is my opportunity to live what I'm working with people to live. It's like, I get to be a self-coach and even access my peers.TINI: Relationships, which is no one's expecting you to do this yourself. My point of view is we're actually the worst when we're like, you handle it yourself. This is a solo sport. It isn't. It isn't in my world. And it was with the support of lots of people and the environment of people always asking the question of what is it that matters to you? And then getting aligned with that.TINI: We're all writing chapters. The book doesn't end until it ends.KG: In navigating some of the greatest challenges, focusing inwards on understanding yourself, exploring what's possible within you is what is critical. Would you agree?TINI: There's value in focusing in words. And what I mean by that is the reflective nature of in words.TINI: When I focus inwards and I grow and I learn by self-reflection. I actually become better when I focus out and come from a place of contribution. What's my contribution? And my contribution could be tough love. My contribution could be honesty. My contribution could be listening, whatever it is, but coming from a place of focusing out to be part of a solution. And what came to me is this idea of living with polarities. The power of polarities.TINI: It's actually necessary, us breathing in, inhale, exhale. You can't breathe by just exhaling all the time. It comes in a package. What triggered my thinking when you said inward reflection and then outward focus and I think that's really perfect and relating is like that too right this is all about relating actually where it's where am I relating with self what is my relationship with self and what's my relationship outwards it's a lovely polarity.KG: What are you observing are some of the most demanding ethical dilemmas of the day? Are you observing any patterns of the age right now?TINI: Let me just start with general patterns first. And this has been consistent and it's equally as consistent and present today. And it links with this whole premise of people relating with one another and this idea of ethics, maybe not so much ethics, but just being in alignment with my principles and being in integrity with it.TINI: If you're not working in an organization, then you can start to reflect on what are the organizations that I'm engaged with and how is this relevant? And the one that is consistent is this idea of being honest.TINI: Something that's not in alignment with fill in the blank

47 min

10/01/2025

The Human Conversation with Ashish Sensarma

Guest: Ashish Sensarma Ashish Sensarma is a Growth Architect - Apparel, Beauty & Fitness With over 30 years of experience in the apparel industry, Ashish built and scaled consumer brands across continents-driving growth through branded retailing, multi-channel distribution, and a deep understanding of global consumer aspirations. From launching Mexx’s retail business and expanding it to 300+ stores across Europe, to elevating Vilebrequin into a global leader in luxury swimwear, his journey has been defined by strategic vision, operational excellence, and a passion for brand storytelling. As an Indian-born Dutch national, he brings a multicultural lens to leadership and brand development. His expertise lies in controlled distribution, cross-border expansion, and building high-performance teams that deliver results. Ashish holds a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration (Finance) from Nichols College, and continues to thrive on transforming ideas into global success stories. HIGHLIGHTS/TAKEAWAYS: KG: You've had such an incredible career, a C-suite leader, an entrepreneur, board advisor, investor, just to name a few. Is there a red thread that ties all of this together? Is there a driving force behind all that you do?ASHISH: Initially, India gave me a lot of grounding of who I am, especially in terms of my personality and things like that. And then I was really blessed, I would say is the right word. I worked for a company called Mexx. That was the start of my career. And there I met leaders. I listened to them. I observed them. And a lot of what I am today is those early years of foundation.ASHISH: As I moved along with life, I learned more things. I got introduced to more people. So it's always been a journey of learning from people. And when you ask me my red thread, 3 things. It's always been for me about brands. I believe that brands have a huge responsibility in the world today. That's one.ASHISH: Second is about people. We are in the people's business, this is the people's business. And what ties this all together is for me the culture in which we operate. And when I talk about culture, I talk about working with people who are passionate.ASHISH: To answer your question in a concise three words, culture, brands, and people. Without that, I think the world is not very, you don't get very far. So that's the red thread, which has always been my, whatever I'm doing, it's about that. Is this a branded business? Is there a purpose for this brand? How are the people in this business? It's a people's business. And what is the culture that this business is all about?KG: What do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you?ASHISH: Ethics for me is all about where we come from. The ethics I've been talking about myself as an individual. I learned my ethics from my parents. Those are ethics which I learned. It's the environment of people. There was no thing as right or wrong. It's about understanding what you felt was right and what you felt was wrong.ASHISH: Integrity for me is what do you do with all this? What do you do with this? It's this theory that you've learned all your life. How do you put it into practice? And that's a tough call. It's not easy because there's so many forces at play. And as the world is moving forward, as the world evolves, there are more challenges, more discussions, more priorities and it's tough out there.ASHISH: Ethics for me is more about theory. It's like a map and integrity is like driving a car. Are you able to do it?ASHISH: Integrity is about doing things when nobody's watching. Integrity defines you as a person. It defines your personality. It defines your purpose. It defines you as a brand.ASHISH: The world doesn't allow you too many mistakes. So if you do wrong things, the world doesn't remember all the good that you did. The world only remembers all the bad things you did. Integrity is a tough one because you've got to be very consistent.KG: In all of the things you've done, huge organizations you've created and led, have you felt that there was a change in the way you looked at ethics and integrity for yourself as an individual versus when you have your organizational hat on where you now have huge teams, huge numbers of people and organizational needs to worry about too, not just your own ethics and integrity. Were they different for you or did they all feel roughly the same? ASHISH: You can make life very complex. You can make life very simple. And I have always said, anytime you are confronted with issues and problems, go back to your culture and to your DNA and you will find the truth in there.ASHISH: People accuse me that I talk a lot and I do. And the reason I talk is I love to communicate with people. I love to communicate with my teams. Whenever I've had the opportunity to lead people, lead teams, it's about transparency.ASHISH: Ethics and integrity is not about a blame culture. You cannot talk from two sides of your mouth. So if you believe in transparency, you believe in responsibility, you believe that you are there for a particular purpose, do your job, not somebody else's job.KG: Consistency in a leader where the leader is very clear about their own values and they're consistent about it. Transparency, honesty, keeping your value system close to your heart in how you operate and ensuring people understand that.KG: What are the biggest challenges that business leaders have to grapple with today?ASHISH: Everything for me is about branding. Today's leaders are faced with short-term versus long-term. There's so many challenges with short-term priorities.ASHISH: Today's leaders are really, I think confronting with that. We hear the word sustainability, we hear the word climate control, we hear the word world's pollution. I would say this dilemma of this constant need for growth, constant need for growth that I need to keep on growing my business.ASHISH: It's a lot of it is about creating products which last for a long time. It's about creating products which are transparent in terms of pricing. It's about creating products which are less about creating pollution. But how can we produce less without compromising growth?ASHISH: It's about brands which create a country's ethos. If you think about our country where I originally came from, India, brands are about creating those kinds of perception about what a country is all about. It's not about creating. It's about curtailing supply. It's not about continuously supplying all the stuff. Find a way to stop the demand, find a way to it. KG: What's your advice to professionals on how to build cultures of integrity in their teams and organizations as they grapple with competing priorities and diverse stakeholders?ASHISH: It always starts with the leader. You've got to set the example. So that's the starting point. Do the leaders of the organization or even in the family or even within your friends, do you set the standards for it? Are you the example? You've got to start with that.ASHISH: It's about really walking the talk and saying, if this is integrity, what should we be doing? And that is a dialogue, which is not a one-time dialogue. It's a nonstop dialogue, 24-7.ASHISH: One point is you're starting with your own leadership. Secondly, I always equate things not to organizations. Organizations for me are like a human being. They evolve. And next one after transparency is you need to have at least traceability and transparency in this. ASHISH: What I mean by transparency and traceability is that do companies have a clear role and responsibility defined about what you're supposed to do? What are your do's and don'ts? And I call it the cultural do's and don'ts. That defines you. ASHISH: Before we go all gung-ho and start hiring people, think the first thing we need to define is what is our cultural values? Because whoever we're going to bring in is going to come into our family. And that person has got to live the values which we are talking about.ASHISH: Let's find the commonality about what drives us. What is it that basically builds this community of people who are focused on doing the right things?ASHISH: The one which I have been exposed to again from the next days is something known as, can you reward integrity. ASHISH: When I talk about rewarding integrity, it's not about the what or the you know, it's about the how. How do you get there?ASHISH: Integrity is all about, there is a purpose in how you do things, but how do you get there is the bigger challenge. And can you do that ethically? Can you do that with real purpose? What I call a clear, it's like taking a thread and you can put the needle through the thread, understanding that origin of DNA of what you are. And if you do that, I guarantee you, you are going to be very truthful to the world and to yourself. KG: What excites you these days in terms of the future of the industry?ASHISH: This is a million dollar question. Now comes Bob Sheard. He's done work for 250 brands. And he's written a new book called The Brand New Future. He came out and told me, I've always believed about this brand and continent. He is 100 % convinced about it. He talks about Regenerative Branding. What people have not yet experienced is how do brands actually create experiences from their original product. But yes, keep on growing.ASHISH: We don't have all the answers yet, believe me, but the more I talk to him, the more I discuss with him. And he also is evolving as he moves and he talks to people. So we are in a very live example of doing something which we both are quite passionate about. KG: Do you have a quote, a book, or advice that you'd like to share for people who are looking up to you?ASHISH: I have read a book every few years. It's called Ikigai. Ikigai for people who might not be aware of it is a Japanese philosophy of how to live more happier and more healthier. It's an amalgamation of things what the world needs, what you're good at or you're passionate abo

1h 1m

09/09/2025

The Human Conversation with Marion Mulder

Guest: Marion Mulder Bringing her experience in both technology driven innovation and social system change to create desired futures for purpose driven organizations. As a “Co-Thinker” Marion helps organizations become Future-Proof by co-creating inclusive and sustainable futures. Every organization faces the three major waves: digitalization (AI), sustainability, and social impact. Using methodologies such as strategic foresight, scenario planning, systems thinking, systems innovation, design thinking, futures thinking, and agile/SAFe, we collaborate on a transformation towards a more purpose-driven, desired future. With roots in digital technology since 1998 and driven by a passion for strategy and innovation, she enjoys working together on solutions the world needs. As a Futurist, she delves into future possibilities, crafting scenarios for both potential and desired outcomes. Dedicated to being a FutureMaker, she transforms ideas into actions, focusing on setting agendas and catalyzing change to create a more equitable and just world. From emerging technology projects to board positions with impact-driven organizations, my mission is clear. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:KG: You've had such an interesting career, technology, conscious innovation, the future of work, advocacy, mentoring, speaking worldwide. Is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you? What was the driving force behind all that you do?MARION: You kind of only know that when you sort of look back, right? So I was kind of looking at one point, what is the right thread through my career? And for the longest part, it was digitalization.MARION: I have a book here, it's about the future makers or futurism. And it turns out I'm an explorer or a map maker. An explorer means someone is just going into the unknown path and a map maker, someone who then is while you're walking, might as well draw the map for the people who follow me. And I think that's kind of what I've done. And for the longest time, it's been digital.MARION: I've started following people through the world, some of the AI, we're on stage, we've been doing AI ethics for 20 years. They really were knowledgeable and were talking about responsible AI before the rest of us would know what AI was. And that really was helpful to see that. And that actually also made me see the bias in the technology, but also that it's a reflection of society, especially when you talk about AI now. And of course, society has its flaws. But when you start putting that in technology, it's basically starting to get carved in stone. And it's going to be harder to get it out there. So that's where I became an advocate of conscious innovation. So once you start doing innovation, let's be conscious about what's happening and how this is treating people. It's a great opportunity, but also you have to think about, know, who's benefiting, but also has been hard with this by accident.MARION: The majority of us use technology because we think we're improving the world. And then for some of us, then it becomes a worse place to be in. And that's something we need to be mindful of.MARION: I think my actual view for ethics, besides the fact that I'm a woman, and you know, the world's built for men. I've got this great book standing here called Invisible Women. It's a really good one to explain, you know, clearly the world's built for men by men, and we also live in this world.MARION: Wouldn't it be great if we could just be ourselves at work? And that was what everybody else wants, right? But for us, it's not a given. These countries in the world where you have to hide yourself or if you tell about you know, who you love, that's actually that could actually be grounds for firing you. You have to hide parts of yourself. So that was like, getting my attention from an ethical point of view about, is this really helping everyone and who are we leaving behind? Who are the vulnerable ones?MARION: I have a coach and she said to me, you need to get from knowledge to wisdom. I was like, what does that mean? But I've come to the conclusion, knowledge is much more about thinking you have to have the solutions. And I've been very big on creating solutions. That was like my skill set is like, coming up with solutions. Wisdom is much more about asking questions. So not having answers was asking questions and it's just a different modus.MARION: I believe in more women on stage, but also I thought, I like doing those things. I like to be on stage. Just said yes and then figured out, so what does this exactly entail? And sometimes I'm gonna get myself into things, why did I say yes to this? But then, you get through it and that are the best stories and the best memories.KG: Can you share with us what these terms, ethics and integrity mean to you and how you use that sense of what ethics means to you in some of these new sunrise domains that you've been involved?MARION: I think it's about, does it come from the heart? Just let your heart speak. And I'm getting more and more, so consciousness of course also means the way in. And if you're not very conscious, then you know, your ego takes over, but you're also not very prone to what effects are on other people. It is about this gut feeling where, if something tells you it's off, it probably is. And then figuring out, can I figure out what is off by maybe just drilling that down in my mind.MARION: My two ethical questions, is just because we can, should we? And that's kind of, I think, a gut feeling going, maybe this is not the best idea. And you can also just sort of wonder then, so what could possibly go wrong? And that's usually examples from other similar things about, we don't want to be like them. And the other thing is, how is this helping humankind or the planet of the world in a sustainable way? And if we can't answer these questions, then that's a really big red flag.MARION: From an AI point of view, there are two frameworks I work with. One is called the Impact Assessments, Fundamental Rights and Algorithms. And from an AI point of view, it starts with why, so why are we building this? And then, the what are we building? And what kind of data is necessary for that? And then the last question is about human rights, or fundamental fundamental rights. And that there's a list in that document of fundamental rights. The point of this one is not so much filling out the form, but having a conversation with multiple people, and preferably a diverse group of people. So having someone who represents the user. And that could also be like someone internally, but also the affected.MARION: Just because you can should be, that's really your internal guide, your intuition going, if your stomach turns when you see something, listen to it. And how is humanity, how's the world getting a better place because of this?KG: The most powerful formulas or checklists for us are often the ones that are most intuitive and simple. You're asking questions, as you said, that should be questions zero.MARION: This is also about design thinking, what problem are we solving? And who are we solving it for? And part of it is, is the value proposition, what pains and gains are there? And that's the other tasks of people and you whether they're, what are they like? So what are the dislikes about, how that is done? That's where we want to create a product that is actually solving a problem. And you don't want to create a product that creates additional problems.MARION: You're doing it for them, not for yourself. But then it comes back again from the heart, which means involving others and doing it for that versus your own ego and need for validation yourself.KG: One of my favorite examples that I've heard you share in a panel in the past is that I've seen you talk about searching for an image and the effort of the algorithm to be representative and how it can all go wrong. Would you like to talk about that example?MARION: They're like all sorts of different ethnic backgrounds, but also they have had all sorts of different ones and they just went too far with, too diverse as in, we've got one of every flavor. I just asked for a group of friends and you're just giving me bias girls, but then in different sort of clothings and all super skinny. And this is not representative, but that's when we need my bias correction.MARION: How do we get this right? And that's a really interesting point because my right is probably different than your right because we have different lived experiences. Our expectations are different than what we're supposed to see. But it comes back again to whoever developed this product and when they were testing, I was wondering how diverse was the group of testers there that they didn't see this a first time round, or they thought it was acceptable to ship the product when it was clearly not showing a really good reflection of society, just one very specific view on society.KG: Was there a time when you yourself perhaps faced the temptation that they were competing priorities, perhaps as an entrepreneur founder yourself, or you were an advocate expert, subject matter expert helping a client and on one hand there was profitability and first more advantage on the other this is question zero that you raise should you do it simply because you can. Did you ever face that example and could you share it?MARION: When you have to talk about diversity or when you start talking about organizations, we have to talk about business cases. And it's like, I am valid only when I'm a business case, when you can make money off me is that really, that didn't sit right with me. I was actually actively advocating for it internally because we needed to get more diversity and we needed to get the money for it to get it all done. So I had to figure out for myself a way to navigate that. I could step out of it, but then I couldn't reach anything. I also realized that we were talking the language of

1h 8m

07/03/2025

The Human Conversation with Geoffrey van der Ven

Guest: Geoffrey van der Ven Geoffrey van der Ven is a spoken word artist and theater maker known for his sharp, critical, and activist voice, particularly within the queer and BIPOC communities. He often focuses on bringing unheard stories to the forefront, especially those related to queer history and identity. He is recognized for his solo performance "Het is niet nieuw" ("It is not new"), which explores the queer history of Africa, and is currently working on a new show called "What's the Difference," which delves into queer shame. Geoffrey has received accolades such as the Poet of the Year award at the Queer & Feminist Poetry Awards and an honorable mention at Button Poetry. He has performed at major venues and events like the Nieuwe Luxor Theater, Rotterdam Pride, and the Amsterdam Fringe Festival. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:KG: You have such an interesting career in product management. You also handle innovation and strategy consulting. You also are a huge advocate and a spoken artist and a speaker, just the name of you. Is there a red thread that ties all of these activities for you? What's the driving force behind all that you do?GEOFFREY: What I actually do at every company that I've ever worked at is I look at what we do, whether that's the systems that we use internally or the systems that we provide to our clients or users. And I see where it does and it doesn't work for the people that are using it. And then I take action because I get really itchy when I see something that doesn't work. Well, we can probably fix this so that I, come up with an idea. We test it and we fix it and we make it better.GEOFFREY: I think that human aspect is what seeps through also on the artist side of the story. I think that personal, human, there's always, the human, people are gonna be like, there's humans everywhere, but there's always the human thing, the human aspect of it, the human story, whether that's your own story or the story of your clients, that's always present.KG: What do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you?GEOFFREY: Integrity because I think that's the easiest one to carry. Do what is right. Not what's easy or what comes the fastest. Just do the right thing. Do the right thing with that responsibility. Come up for voices that don't have that stage. It's gonna sound very holier than thou, but speak to the greater good. Use your story in the right way and then be aware of the dynamics that are at play and of the space that you take and the space that someone you maybe shouldn't take or should pass over to someone else.GEOFFREY: There's moments where you might have two user groups that have conflicting needs, or where despite all the right intentions, you have a line in a poem that does hurt someone or offend someone. I think that we need to get rid of that idea that there's no ambivalence in this. There can be multiple things that occur at the same time. But then again, I think it comes down to how you then deal with those situations.KG: Is there an example that you feel comfortable sharing where you navigate an ethical dilemma? And then maybe you can share what you learned from it in how to deal with these difficult conversations?GEOFFREY: I think that when it comes down to staying aligned with your values, that's easier for me to speak on.KG: Is there a blueprint in your mind where it's almost like an algorithm and that's how you find it fairly straightforward because that's consistent in everything you've said so far that in your mind it's a straightforward thing. Did you work on it to make it straightforward to unravel how we tend to over complicate things and worry? How did you get here?GEOFFREY: I am almost to a fault solution oriented as a person. And that's great and like 90 % of the time until I run into a problem that I cannot solve and then I crash. I think for me, after a while, I started working somewhere where I had a lot of agency, where I had a boss that went, or a line manager that said, do what you think is right, and if it's wrong, learn from it. Which was amazing, because for once I could see these innovation projects and these product management issues and go, this is what I think we should do. 90 % of what I think we should do is talk to the users. And not talking to the users is never an answer for me.GEOFFREY: Convincing people that you're right never works. Or sometimes it works, but then you win the argument and you lose the working relationship. It is worth convincing them that it's a path worth exploring.I think that honesty, that human side of the story, your own human side of the story, your willingness to take responsibility and admit that maybe you're not perfect and that if you're wrong, you will let them know that you're wrong. We miss that sometimes. But it aligns with a part of me about being open. And that part of me, that value of being open is what I carry through. The more that you start being honest and open about all aspects of your life, you also get to be honest and open in your work itself. And that starts, then things fall into place.KG: It sounds to me like what you're saying is one, it's actually quite straightforward to do the right thing. Keep in mind that it's the stakeholders who matter the most. If that's clear in your mind, sense of purpose, goal orientation, that's number one. Number two is to yourself be open, because if you're clear on what your goals are, you stay open and grounded and pragmatic about solution orientation. And number three, you seem to be saying is clarity in communication.KG: Is there anything you'd add to this list or anything that I've missed that you've shared already that would help early-career, mid-career product managers to successfully persuade people to follow their advice because you work with so many clients and organizations?GEOFFREY: Sit in the other people's chairs. I think everyone on any team can agree that as a company you have customers. And that as a company you want to make those customers happy, and you most likely want to get more customers. So whether you agree with me or not, we can agree on this. It's a shared value between yourself and your stakeholders. Keep whatever discussion you're having focused on that. It's not about me and it's not about you- keep it focused on that. And then look at that goal through the eyes of the people around you.GEOFFREY: I always, always, always have a problem backlog. It is a list of all issues that we know our customers experience with the product, of all problems that our customers have. Prioritized according to how many customers experience that problem and how frequently they experience that problem.GEOFFREY: We all agree, happy customers, more customers. So how do we make them happy? Solve these problems. Those are two things I want to add to that is empathy and prioritize the problems.KG: Do you have any perspectives to share in terms of ethics and integrity? Customer orientation or user orientation in terms of responsible innovation or the future of this sector field?GEOFFREY: There will always be people that we're trying to make happy with our products, which means that you will always need an advocate for those people within companies to make sure that you're building your right product.GEOFFREY: I think in ethics, you end up in the same tale of just listen to your users. Learn to admit and see that everyone makes mistakes and everything can be wrong and consider the fact that you're working with people.KG: As a tech aficionado and perhaps a subject matter expert as well, are there examples in the public domain where you've observed companies or products are doing what you're recommending here?GEOFFREY: There was recently a company that I saw literally do this and it made me so happy. Cool Blue does this quite well. They have a really fun personality as a company. I think they do admit it when they're wrong. But mostly they go about everything with a sense of humor. I think another company that does this quite interestingly is The Nothing Phone. Their CEO literally on YouTube, like he records himself live watching reviews and responds to these reviews. And in some places he gives context for choices which I like because it's context for choice. So he's not excusing a problem or an issue. He's going, these are the constraints and these were the choices made based on those constraints, hence indeed this issue.GEOFFREY: I've had this as a product manager where you see a massive problem with your product and you don't have the resources to solve it within a week and you're like, it's big problem, but just being able to go to a customer, I'm gonna put in my best effort and attempt to help you. That already changes the interaction that you're having because it goes from the experience of you working against them and making their life harder for something that should be simpler to, okay, let me see if I can stand on your side of the story and help you. And even if I can't help you, maybe relieve some of your frustration.GEOFFREY: Every time I work with a development team, I need and want them to be able to read the interviews with the customers and to understand the customer's problem. First of all, you end up with creative solutions that anybody else on the team would have never thought of. And second of all, aligns them on the mission.GEOFFREY: The more empathy you have within your company towards the users that you're trying to solve problems for, the better that solution ends up being and the more motivated people end up being.KG: Is there a book, a quote, or any advice that you hold close to your heart right now and you'd like to share?GEOFFREY: I'm currently writing a theater show about shame. And to write that show, do research and part of the research was reading a book called Velvet Rage. This research on shame, it's incredible because you realize that it's present in so many layers of society and there's so many examples that you see

41 min

06/05/2025

The Human Conversation with Jessica Bensch

Guest: Jessica Bensch Jessica Bensch is a global advocate for workplace transformation and the founder of Vanguard Voices, a movement dedicated to making psychological safety a non-negotiable standard across all industries. With decades of professional experience across continents and sectors, Jessica has witnessed firsthand that good intentions and isolated efforts are not enough to create meaningful change. True progress, she believes, demands collective responsibility and unwavering accountability from leaders, employees, and organizations alike. Having lived, worked, and traveled in nearly 40 countries, Jessica has developed a deep appreciation for the power of diversity—and the damage inflicted when voices are silenced. She knows that unchecked workplace abuse undermines creativity, erodes morale, and stifles organizational growth. Through Vanguard Voices, Jessica unites individuals and organizations around the world in a shared commitment to fostering cultures of true safety, inclusion, and accountability. For Jessica, this work is more than a career—it is her passion and life’s purpose. Driven by a powerful vision of change, she continues to lead the charge toward a future where psychological safety is not just an ideal but a universal reality. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:JESSICA: I truly believe in creating environments where people can feel free to express their thoughts fully, openly, and contribute it meaningfully as well.JESSICA: My work is all about removing the barriers that silence people. The fear, the bureaucracy, the unspoken rules that are keeping people from speaking up, like taking risks and also driving change. I truly believe that companies thrive when people are heard and valued and empowered. And I truly believe that changing our workplaces, particularly workplace culture, is not just an HR issue, it's an everybody issue. It involves all of us. It starts with leadership responsibility, but a collective movement is needed to ensure that we have those safe workplaces that I believe that everybody craves for.JESSICA: Vanguard Voices is a not-for-profit association. Our laser focus is to bring the topic of psychological safety, that is where people can feel free to express their thoughts fully. Vanguard Voices was founded with the belief and the research that proves it, that psychological safety is foundational for our teams and our organizations to thrive.KG: Can you share with us what inspired you to start it?JESSICA: I think it was about seven, eight years ago, our company was going through a transformation. And at that time, the messaging that was coming through from, you know, as part of that transformation is that we need to be more bold, we need to be more courageous, we need to speak up. And I thought, that's great. And we started a grassroots effort within our company. We were doing speaking engagements, we were doing surveys and focus groups and sharing a lot of stories, not with the corporate jargon, but real, authentic stories were coming to the surface. And we were speaking to leaders at all levels. And at that time, we were seeing such momentum. With this effort because it was resonating. were really getting to the core of why people felt uncomfortable, generally speaking, of bringing their voice forward. And along the way, we were, of course, speaking with leaders at all levels, and we had tens of thousands who were following us.JESSICA: What I learned is that fear is not at just one level at the organization, it's at all levels. And it was very difficult to kind of push everything through without engagement at the higher levels. And what I also learned was this is not a topic specific to one company. It's really a global topic. It's a human topic. And so with that understanding in mind, I thought, well, first of all, I can't let go of this passion and fire I have on this topic. And I want to make this bigger. And so that's why I founded Vanguard Voices with the pure belief that we can make change. We can link arms around the world and it will happen.KG: What environment or context does it take for a person to come up with a truly original powerful idea and build that, nurture that into a global movement. What did it take for you to do that?JESSICA: I just believe in treating everyone equally as human beings, eye to eye, not looking up, not looking down. And that's what fuels me forward. And I'm a big believer that as well that we all have a purpose and a purpose, know, I was born with a particular purpose to fulfill in life. And I believe everybody has their own purpose. I have discovered my purpose through this experience, you know, in corporate and now through Vanguard. And even though it's hard, even though there are lots of struggles along the way, I know I can't let this go because my values are too deep and my purpose is very much on my mind.KG: What do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you in the context of all that you do?JESSICA: Ethics and Integrity isn't just about doing the right thing. It's about doing it even when it's inconvenient and it's uncomfortable and even costly.JESSICA: Integrity is about doing what we say we're going to do when no one's watching. And it's how we're handling hard decisions. It's the moments where we could easily take another way, but choose not to. Ethics, it means aligning what we say with what we do. It's words with action. And so it's not about words on a wall, like from a company perspective, values written on a wall, it's making sure that those values guide our decisions, even when it's hard.KG: Have you observed any typical ethical dilemmas that professionals might face and what would your advice be to professionals on this?JESSICA: One moment that stands out is when a leader who wanted to have a culture of openness in his team was unknowingly shutting down voices that were around him. He would say, I want open feedback. I want honest feedback. My door is always open. But the reality from his team's perspective was when people challenged him, there were some subtle consequences. So they were excluded from key conversations or decisions. Their ideas were dismissed in meetings and basically their confidence in raising their voice to him stalled.JESSICA: I chose to be direct. And it wasn't easy because there was resistance at first. And over time, that leader realized that psychological safety wasn't just about asking for feedback, you also have to earn it. And so the most ethical thing to do in this situation for me that we can all do is tell the truth. And it goes back to telling the truth, speaking your truth, even when it's hard.KG: What I'm receiving from you right now is that sometimes it might not feel safe to call something out. And it's okay if a person cannot do it directly and may choose to do it a little later and slightly more indirectly. But in this case, you made it clear that there was a choice you made. And so, you're saying that someone can assess in that situation and if they feel they can, call it out and if they need a little bit more time, that's okay. So would you like to share a little bit more about that?JESSICA: Wisdom is needed. You need to sense, follow your intuition. We can usually sense when somebody is ready to receive feedback and is able to take it under the circumstances. What I often have found is when I've been direct, people come back and appreciate it. Many people like to receive kind of the reflection, you know, from the mirror. And that's sometimes what I provide. But there are others who may not be ready. And that's where that wisdom is needed.KG: Are there some typical scenarios you notice where it triggers failure of psychological safety or trust in the workplace in general and workplaces as you coach leaders today? Classic scenarios. Can you also share any tips to professionals in these classic scenarios? How would you say it? How would you begin? What's the opening gambit to be honest and reflect the truth back to somebody, especially in situations where perhaps you don't feel like you have all the power?ESSICA: The gap that I often see in companies is back to what they say and what they actually do. And so in companies, we often talk about inclusion. We talk about integrity. We talk about all these values, these beautiful values that are shown on the wall. We talk about them, but then some classic examples are when we're protecting the toxic performers. We encourage the feedback, but then we start to punish those who speak up. Another classic example is when there's a promise of transparency, but critical decisions are made behind closed doors. So this gap between what is said and what is done is really dangerous and it will damage the trust. And it just teaches people that what's said in public isn't really practice in reality.JESSICA: The advice I would give is that leaders need to look in the mirror first. And invite, truly invite the feedback from others, but they need to also be looking at themselves and asking their questions to themselves like, are we truly modeling this ourselves? Where are we short, falling short? What's one action we can take today to align the words with reality? People trust what they see, not what they hear. That's essentially, I think, the work that's needed in companies today.KG: I observed that this is also a great parallel to parenting too. You and I have both bonded over the fact that we're also parents and children too will trust you based on your actions and not your words. And so I think our outside personas and inside personas both need mindful attention to the fact that our actions speak way more loudly than our words do.KG: As you said, people actually appreciate your honesty. What can we say or do that brings that reaction out of at least some of the people we interact with?JESSICA: I am not somebody to focus on negatives. It's more, I'm a big believer in looking at their strengths and enhancing on those strengths. And

36 min

05/06/2025

The Human Conversation with Dr. Nigel Paine

Guest: Dr. Nigel Paine Dr. Nigel Paine is a change-focused leader with a worldwide reputation and a unique grasp of media, learning and development in the public, private and academic sectors. He has extensive experience in leadership and consultancy with public service broadcasters, SMEs, global industry players, government and education institutions. Nigel focuses on the use of learning technologies, organisational development, leadership and creativity with a spotlight on maximising human potential, innovation and performance in the workplace. Nigel is a strategic thinker, able to motivate, lead and drive organisations forward to deliver business and training objectives. Nigel has been involved in corporate learning for over twenty years. He was appointed in April 2002 to head up the BBC’s Learning and Development operation. Under his leadership, the team developed a brand-new on-boarding experience, a comprehensive leadership development programme for over 6,000 staff, an award-winning intranet, and state of the art informal learning and knowledge sharing networks. He left the BBC in September 2006 to start his own company that is focused on building great workplaces by promoting creativity, innovation, values based-leadership and learning and the link between them. He speaks regularly at conferences around the world, and teaches on a doctoral programme at the University of Pennsylvania and for Chicago Booth Business School. His first book, The Learning Challenge: Dealing with Technology, Innovation and Change in Learning and Development was published in September 2014. His new book on Building Leadership Development Programmes That Work was published in November 2016. He is currently working on a new book re-examining learning organisations and learning culture. He recently co-authored an eBook introduction to Neuroscience for Learning. He has a Professorship from Napier University in Edinburgh, and is a Fellow of the CIPD, LPI, the RSA and a Masie Learning Fellow in the USA. He presents a monthly TV programme (Learning Now TV), shares a weekly podcast (with Martin Couzins) called From Scratch, and regularly writes articles for magazines and journals about development, technology and leadership. Nigel has written articles and white papers published on subjects as diverse as ‘Creativity in the Workplace’, ‘Building Corporate Heroes’ and ‘The Future of E-Learning’. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:DR. NIGEL: One of the things that I've come more and more and more to believe is that I value decency and kindness. And I think organizations are far too harsh and toxic and do not value decency and kindness. And the research from the book really indicated that if you do not value decency and kindness, you will never get the best from your staff. You can flog them, you can force them, you can cajole them, but if you really want motivated staff, they need to have unsolicited, unconditional effort, and that comes from decency and kindness. Increasingly, that's my belief, and I don't care what anyone thinks. I'm promoting that, and I will continue to promote it.DR. NIGEL: Even though some people think I'm being naive, I actually think I'm being realistic. Because the kind of world that we live in is so volatile, you can't get the best out of people by mistreating them and then saying, but give me your ideas, give me extra commitment. It doesn't happen. It doesn't happen.KG: What do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you as you bring your expertise to the world?DR. NIGEL: When I started my own company, I made three decisions which have been helped. The first decision was I would never work with people I didn't trust. The second decision was that I would not stick to doing the same old, same old, same old. I would develop and move forward and think it through. And the third was that I would try to help organizations become less toxic in whatever, by whatever, whatever route. And I've tried to do that. I've maybe failed a lot, but I've tried very hard to live by those values. And it's really an ethical approach.DR. NIGEL: Integrity is very important to me. If I lose my integrity, I lose everything. If I lose a bit of money, I lose a bit of money. That's not the end of the world. I can get money back. I can't get my integrity back. So no one has ever tried to buy me or if they have, I've resisted it forcefully. And no one has tried to make me say things and no one has encouraged me to support bad treatment of staff or a bad culture. I'm trying to create a culture where people grow, learn, flourish and share.DR. NIGEL: It's very important to me to have an ethical foundation and values. And I like organizations that have ethical foundations and values and they live by them. They don't just stick them on the wall, they actually live by them. So I think that's very important. I believe and nothing has ever shaken that belief that basically people are good and that people the vast majority want to do good work. DR. NIGEL: I really genuinely believe that we can make work better, we can make work work, and we can have people who really enjoy going to work do fantastic work and increase productivity for the organization. Productivity and a decent workplace aren't contradictory, but some people think they are, and I don't understand. Because there's no evidence to show that they're right and I'm wrong. No evidence. There's more evidence to show that I'm right and they're wrong.KG: Do you have any words of encouragement or advice for professionals who are not so powerful in those organizations, mid-level or early career?DR. NIGEL: You can behave in your area with your team in a way that is noticeably different from the rest of the organization. So the fact that the organization behaves in a particular way doesn't stop you doing something different. And sometimes it's like a contagion that you set something up. You put a bit of bacteria in the organization, then it replicates, at some point it becomes unstoppable.DR. NIGEL: The minute you know consciously that this is not what you should be doing, walk away. Just walk away. However much they pay you, however much they say this is only temporary or whatever, because otherwise you'll get caught.KG: It occurs to me that social media and technology are rather skewed towards negative stories, the stories of hatred and fear tend to be more attractive and clickbait worthy. But in your extensive experience, would you say large organizations and professionals are more towards the spectrum of kindness and decency and creating psychological safety in workplaces. Would you say that's your observation?DR. NIGEL: I think it's an increasing area of development in organizations. And it's not because they're just suddenly being do goody. We must do this to be good to people. They're doing it for very cynical, pragmatic reasons. If the more psychological safety, the more interaction, the more problem solving, the more creativity, the more productivity, it's all about getting the best out of people in the world.DR. NIGEL: And if you're not comfortable, you know what to do. You walk away and don't let that slippery slope start occurring. We compromise a bit, compromise a bit more, compromise a bit more. And then suddenly you've crossed a line. So that line still exists. These decisions are being made every day all around the world in organizations. So you know what to do. You know what the right thing to do is. But if you can do it without damaging yourself, then that's the best thing.DR. NIGEL: I don't believe in confrontation or holier than thou, in big moral high ground. I just believe in quietly walking away because that's the safest thing you can do. Disappearing basically.KG: I think it is an excellent example of nonviolent communication and strategic conflict management because indeed it is counterproductive sometimes as professionals to be defiant and speak up in ways that burn bridges, you can certainly continue to do your work and speak up and establish a clean record for yourself while being polite.KG: Do not bend your own principles. Make it clear what you will and will not accept, but continue to be polite and work while you might not see eye to eye with them on those activities, you're clearly outlining what you will and will not do. And therefore they know what to expect of you.DR. NIGEL: People have to be conscious of the decisions they make and the impact. It's rather like Nonviolent Communication, that wonderful book that you've got to be conscious of the language you use and recognize the implications of the language you use. And it's learning something, that things that were invisible suddenly become visible. And I think that's what this is all about. It's making it visible and bring it to the fore of your consciousness, not stick it in the back of your consciousness so you don't notice it.KG: What are your observations on ethical dilemmas most relevant today? And what's your advice to leaders and professionals in these situations?DR. NIGEL: I just think as a leader, a leader who does not behave ethically, corrupts the whole organization. So I think you have a special responsibility and you may be under the most pressure. And we all know about ways that organizations do things that are not incredibly wrong, but are on the edge. I think if I'm a leader, I've got to have a clear indicator of what I believe. And I make sure the whole organization knows what I believe as well, so that you don't get people further down the organization misbehaving. But if I misbehave, I have no justification whatsoever for stopping anyone else misbehaving. And you tend to find these things cascade. So weakness at the top, ends up weakness throughout the whole organization. Strength at the top, strength all the way through the organization. people need to be proud to work for you. And if they think you're a bit of a scumbag, that you've got very dubious ethics, not much in

47 min

The Human Conversation Podcast on Leadership and Ethics

Human Conversation with Leah JM Dean

Human Conversation with Dr. Saman Sarbazvatan

Human Conversation with Tini Fadzillah

The Human Conversation with Ashish Sensarma

The Human Conversation with Marion Mulder

The Human Conversation with Geoffrey van der Ven

The Human Conversation with Jessica Bensch

The Human Conversation with Dr. Nigel Paine

Trailer

The Human Conversation on Leadership and Ethics: Insights for Leading with Purpose

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The Human Conversation Podcast on Leadership and Ethics

Episodes

Human Conversation with Leah JM Dean

Human Conversation with Dr. Saman Sarbazvatan

Human Conversation with Tini Fadzillah

The Human Conversation with Ashish Sensarma

The Human Conversation with Marion Mulder

The Human Conversation with Geoffrey van der Ven

The Human Conversation with Jessica Bensch

The Human Conversation with Dr. Nigel Paine

Trailer

About

Information