What If Marvel was Real‪?‬ www.SuperSerious616.com

In This Episode
Mike and Ed discuss life after being an Avenger. What are the responsibilities? What are the privileges? Do they get top secret briefings? Are they like ex-presidents? Or like ex-FBI? Who pays for the damage they cause when Giant Man decides to grow to 35-feet in the middle of the city and starts knocking down buildings? These are unprecedented times, but someone has to figure this out quickly!
Behind the Comic
This is Giant Man and the Wasp’s first adventure post-Avengers. The story continues into the next issue, but at that point they “retire” and the title converts to dual stories of Namor and the Hulk. Turns out Giant Man just wasn’t that popular. It didn’t help that Tales to Astonish has consistently been one of the weaker titles for the previous few years. Something needed to change. Also in this issue the Human Top, who was originally introduced as a “normal human” who just happened to be able to spin quickly, has now developed the ability to fly…
Full Transcript
Edward: Mike, what do you do when you retire from the Avengers? What's next? What's next on your plate?
Michael: I don't know. It's hard to go higher in the superhero community, but it's also harder to get a better job in even the military or that kind of like super diplomacy community
Edward: and super diplomats.
Michael: Well, that's what they are, right? Like they're like, I don't know, like Warrior Kings in a way. Right?
Edward: Thank you for your service, giant man. I'd not like you to be the diplomat in charge of Poland. Over there with the wasp. You can help us deal with geopolitical situations in the Eastern Republics.
Michael: But that's what they've been doing though. They've been acting as
Edward: the last time giant man went into the Eastern Europe, he was crashing through the Berlin wall. It's not diplomatic, it's not known for diplomacy.
Michael: No, but his actions, whether they're clumsy or not, were actually affecting international relations. So that's what I mean, like the general sense of whatever they are.
Edward: Yeah. So causing diplomatic relations is not the same as being a diplomat, just cuz they both have the word diplo in them.
Michael: No, no, no. I'm not saying that they're, I'm not saying that that's the job. It's just that what have the Avengers been? They've saved the world. They've battled villains. They have taken upon their self to go to other countries, to act in America's interests.
And then at times we've found that they've acted secretively to the same extent, further in the interest and theory of America. So I don't know what you want to call them, but they're not regular. And so you're, they're not regular. And, and your question at the start was like, well, what do you like, what do you do when you retire?
Well, it's not unprecedented, but it's unusual. And so it's a good question.
Edward: And so what's unusual, you're saying retiring as a superhero is unusual or retiring as an avenger is unusual. What's unusual?
Michael: Retired from the Avengers is unusual because, well, yes, it's Avenger.
Edward: Avengers have only been around for a couple years. No one has retired until now. But now we've had, now we have three retirements, sorry, four retirements, 1, 2, 3, 4, all at the same time.
Michael: Yeah. And my point is that it's unusual. We have an experience where someone with that much power who's had such a fascinating role and influence on world affairs, is now no longer in that position?
 I think there's a qualitative difference between being on the Avengers and being the go-to team for. Pretty much any big problem to be on their own. Are they still on the payroll or at least getting the status and the influence they had on Avengers?
Edward: I wouldn't think so. If you're not, you can't be like, not on the Avengers, but still getting all the Avenger privileges.
Michael: That's right. So that's what I mean. Somebody that tied in to International affairs in such a highly visible way a

Apologizes for the delay on this episode. Edward has been traveling more than usual for business making it difficult to record. But we are back, and we should have a few more episodes recorded in time to be back on schedule next week. Stay tuned true believers!
In this episode:
Mike and Ed skip over the tornado that Dr. Doom used to terrorize the city, the capture of the Baxter Building, and the use of Reed Richards’ technology against himself, and jump right to the shocking news that the Thing, Ben Grimm, is leaving the Fantastic Four! Why is he leaving? Is it too hard to keep egos like this together for more than a few years? What is he going to do next? Is it a coincidence that the Avengers recently lost their four strongest members? And does this mean the Fantastic Four need to go into recruiting mode now too? The “Fantastic Three” does not have the same ring to it!
Behind the Issues
A lot happens in these issues: The after effects of the nuclear bomb in issue #38 cause the FF to lose their powers. Then Dr Doom attacks the team while they are helpless and they need to defeat their arch-nemesis without the benefit of powers. But all of that is secret. The FF manage to hide the fact their powers are missing while they get help from Daredevil. By the end of issue #40 they have their powers back, and Ben Grim is back to being the Thing. But in the course of the battle Ben felt un-appreciated and uses it as an excuse to leave the organization. This continuing storyline with every issue ending on a cliffhanger is Stan’s new style and we are seeing it in almost every title now, but none as connected as the Fantastic Four.
In these issues:
Fantastic Four #39:
The Fantastic Four are rescued at sea, and they have lost their powers. Reed uses his technology to replace their powers, and they keep this information from the world. Meanwhile, Dr. Doom, who had been hypnotized by Reed previously, has this spell lifted by a local hypnotist. Doom, now in a rage at being tricked, heads back to New York City and battles the Fantastic Four, who have Daredevil on their side. They have a wild battle, with Daredevil doing a lot of the heavy lifting, leading into the next issue.
Fantastic Four #40:
Daredevil continues to pull the Fantastic Four’s bacon out of the fire. Meanwhile, the Four head to their headquarters, where Doom is holed up, with the local police sectioning off the city around the Four’s headquarters to allow these superpowered enemies do battle. At just the right time, the Four’s powers return, due to the ingenuity of Reed Richards, and they are able to best Dr. Doom and reclaim their headquarters. The Thing pushes them over the finish line, and they let Doom escape. And at the very end of the issue, the Thing decides that he has had it, and quits the team.
Assumed before the next episode:
People are wondering if the team should be called the Fantastic Five.
This episode takes place:
After the Fantastic Four/Five have defeated Dr. Doom and reclaimed the Baxter Building.
Full Transcript
Edward: Mike, there is a lot to talk about.
Michael: No kidding.
Edward: We could talk about the fact there's a tornado rampaging through the city destroying buildings. We can talk about Dr. Doom using Reed Richards technology against him and against all of us. We could talk about Doom. Taking over the Baxter, Building again, and threatening the Fantastic Four.
 These are all things we can talk about, but we're not gonna talk about any of those things.
Michael: No man. We're talking about teams. We're talking about teams. Eddie, this is exciting news.
Edward: Yeah. Not just teams. We're talking about The Thing. After all this stuff happening. The Thing announcement that he is leaving the Fantastic four.
The Fantastic four have always had a challenge with their brand name in that they needed four people. Now they have to deal with that problem in a real way because the Fantastic Three doesn't have the same ring to it.
Michael: No. S

In this episode:
Mike and Ed discuss the shocking loss of scientific skill among the country’s top scientists. It clearly seems purposeful, but what is the purpose? Aliens trying to keep humanity from developing new technologies? A domestic test to take away targeted abilities from exceptional people? Will they be able to take away superpowers next? And if so, is it ethical? If we can’t keep someone in prison, is the choice really between lobotomizing their abilities or capital punishment? What is the ethical choice? Ed and Mike disagree!
Behind the issue:
The after-effects of this issue result in Giant-Man unable to shrink smaller than a normal human for the remainder of his time in this title (which is ending soon and will be replaced with Namor. More on that when it happens!). Otherwise, nothing special here.
In this issue:
A guy is driving around town while being directed by a man in a hidden laboratory in a funny costume named the Supreme One. When the driver sees Giant-Man, he decides to zap him in a green ray, which causes Giant-Man to grow weak. This is because the ray is designed to steal power. The Supreme One becomes obsessed with stealing Giant-Man’s power, as he was unable to do that the first time he had someone try. To that end, he has his minion drive around town bathing scientific geniuses in the green ray, stealing their next-level scientific abilities, i.e. a top physicists forgets everything he knows about physics, etc. Giant-Man and the Wasp investigate, eventually tracking down the Supreme One, who escapes in a spaceship (turns out he is an alien).
In the second story in this issue, the Hulk fights the army in a foreign nation, and when he turns to Bruce Banner, he is captured by some locals. Major Talbot is sent in to rescue Bruce Banner, and the episode ends on a cliffhanger - will Talbot and Banner fall to their deaths as they escape? Tune in next week!
Assumed before the next episode:
People are wondering what is happening to all the smart people. They are getting … less smart? How does that make any sense?
This episode takes place:
After people learn of the de-smartening that is happening.
Complete transcript:
Edward: All right, Mike, we're gonna change it up this week. We're gonna change it up a little bit because I have a story I think we should be talking about that's not, well, maybe it is superhuman. The scientists around the world are losing their scientific abilities
Michael: right?
Edward: So these are top physicists who are losing the ability to do physics or top geneticists who can't do genetics anymore. Top chemists who can't do chemistry anymore. And their brains can still do everything else. They can still have conversations, they can still love their families, but they're losing their scientific abilities. And so I think this is a super thing. We don't know who's doing it or why, but it sounds superhuman.
Michael: Okay, before we get to this superhuman, if they're superhuman. Not saying that what you're saying is that
Edward: No, I'm not saying human. It's a superhuman, some sort of superhuman thing. I don't think we know any scientific way to remove parts of knowledge from someone's brain like that feels like a superhuman thing.
Michael: Right. So you're saying that there must be a purpose to it. This phenomena that's only targeting extremely intelligent and highly accomplished and specialized people like physicists. They're being targeted and their abilities are removed, which. Yeah, it doesn't sound normal.
Edward: Um, well, it's never happened before, so therefore it is by definition, abnormal. Although it's abnormal, it's happening more and more now. So is it becoming normal? It's becoming normal. It was not normal, but now it is.
Michael: It's normalized almost, and so normalized.
So I guess the first question is, what's the purpose of it? So your first thing is that you're thinking that there's a super villain possibly, or an alien or something that is doing this for

When episode 200 was first published we push the wrong audio (audio for episode 199). It has now been fixed. Apologies for the error (Thursday, April 27, 2023)
In this episode:
Mike and Ed continue to dive into the shocking changes to the Avengers line-up. It has now been announced that in addition to Hawkeye, Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch will be joining the team, and all of the founding members will be leaving. Is it still the Avengers is none of the founding members are on the team? Are we concerned that 75% of the team is made up of former villains. Are they really FORMER? And even if morality was not an issue, can we expect these new members to replace the missing firepower of Iron Man, Thor, Giant Man and the Wasp?
Behind the issue:
There was so much to discuss in this issue we broke it into two. And we still never covered the death of Baron Zemo given it was unclear if it was ever made public. Surprisingly for the comics Baron Zemo, the archenemy of Captain America at this point in the continuity, remains dead until the present day. However his son takes on the title and continues to battle Captain America and the Avengers on an ongoing basis.
In this issue:
(This is a repeat of the last episode) The issue opens with the Avengers once again emerging victorious over the Masters of Evil in New York, with Captain America defeating Baron Zemo in South America. It continues with Iron Man, Giant-Man, and the Wasp in New York having a team meeting and deciding to take a break from being on the team. At the same time they are having the meeting, Hawkeye breaks into their headquarters and asks to join the Avengers. His beloved Black Widow has been murdered by her employers behind the iron curtain, and he has had a change of heart on his line of work. The team decide to take him up on the offer, and on top of that, seek out new potential teammates, with the papers reporting this initiative. Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver decide to apply to join the team, and they are admitted to the ranks as well. By the time Captain America returns, the team has been completed reconstituted, with Iron Man, Giant-Man, and the Wasp out, and Hawkeye, Quicksilver, and Scarlet Witch in as their replacements.
This episode takes place:
After Cap’s kooky quartet has been announced.
Full transcript:
Edward: Mike, never believe the rumors. Never believe the rumors. The rumors are total bs. Can't trust those people,
Micheal: even if we're the ones that are spreading the rumors in.
Edward: Even that we need to stop, stop with the speculation, I think last we heard captain America and Thor were off the team. Hawkeye and someone else were on the team and now that's all been thrown for Loop. Thor is off the team, but now Iron Man and Wasp and Giant man are off the team as well. Captain America is back. It's just nothing makes sense anymore.
Micheal: Well, not really, no. So our speculation before was that we found it suspicious that Hawkeye, a former villain, was on the team when the remaining three Avengers were people with power suits, basically, who could be swapped in and out, but now it's Hawkeye's off. Two more villains. Rick Silver and the Scarlet Witch are on the team. And Captain America's in charge. I mean is it really the Avengers? You know what I mean? They said isn't.
Edward: There's no original ventures left. What's that? That's it. Thesis' ship You're talking about Thesis' ship. That's what I was gonna say. Yeah. Yeah. They've replaced every board and brought on new boards. Is it still the same ship when none of the boards are left.
Micheal: Well, what's funny is like, I think about law firms where law firms start out with a name of like, Smith and Jones, and then, eventually there's no Smith and there's no Jones. It's just a name and
Edward: It's an overhand,
Micheal: people treated as I think that it has the risk of being Smith and Jones in name only. And being not the same as it used to be. And maybe that's what the Avengers are. Is t

Next week is our 200th episode! It was fortunate timing that it ended up landing right on our episodes about Avengers #16, which was one of the most important issues of the era. If you are enjoying What If Marvel was Real?, now would be a great time to spread the word! Thanks for your help in getting our little show out there, and for all the listeners who have been here from the beginning.
In this episode:
Mike and Ed discuss the surprise announcement that Hawkeye, the supervillain, will be joining the Avengers as a new member. The Federal Security Agency has given Hawkeye a thumbs up, but how is that possible? What do they know that we do not? Do we need to talk conspiracies again? The rumors are that Captain America and Thor are out of the organization. If true, we will only be left with heroes with technological powers - have the people behind the technology (and masks) been replaced? Is this the end of an era?

Behind the issue:
This is one of the key issues of the mid-60s. The Avengers were originally Marvel’s answer to the Justice League, whereby the publisher put all the heroes from different titles into one book to get the readers excited and turning over their hard-earned cash for tales of camaraderie and adventure. But the individual hero titles continued, and Stan had to keep his developing Marvel universe consistent. He had to juggle the storylines in, say, the individual title Tales of Suspense with what was happening in the team title Avengers. If Thor had been called away to Asgard, then how would be be around for an Avengers adventure that same month? Making it all make sense every month was challenging for Stan, and he wanted a solution.
The answer was to take most of the heroes with their own titles off the team. He kept Captain America, and maybe rationalized it by knowing that the Captain America stand-alone stories could be set back in World War II whenever he wanted them to be. Then he filled in the rest of the team with supporting characters from other titles - characters who did not have their own books (and would not get their own books for many years, i.e. Hawkeye did not get his first solo title until 1983; Scarlet Witch, with Vision, until 1982; and Quicksilver until 1997).
In this issue:
The issue opens with the Avengers once again emerging victorious over the Masters of Evil in New York, with Captain America defeating Baron Zemo in South America. It continues with Iron Man, Giant-Man, and the Wasp in New York having a team meeting and deciding to take a break from being on the team. At the same time they are having the meeting, Hawkeye breaks into their headquarters and asks to join the Avengers. His beloved Black Widow has been murdered by her employers behind the iron curtain, and he has had a change of heart on his line of work. The team decide to take him up on the offer, and on top of that, seek out new potential teammates, with the papers reporting this initiative. Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver decide to apply to join the team, and they are admitted to the ranks as well. By the time Captain America returns, the team has been completed reconstituted, with Iron Man, Giant-Man, and the Wasp out, and Hawkeye, Quicksilver, and Scarlet Witch in as their replacements.
Assumed before the next episode:
People are excited, and a little nervous, that the Avengers roster has been changed so completely.
This episode takes place:
After the announcement that Hawkeye will be on the team, but before Captain America returns from South America.
Full transcript:
Edward: Mike, I told you that Hawkeye was a superhero. I told you. I told you. You were like, oh no, he's not that good. He can't even fight anybody just as Arrows. Oh, go back to the 14th century. But no. Now Hawkeye is an Avenger. Mike. He's an avenger.
Michael: Yeah. I guess the Avengers, they already had a man who's basically a one man rocket and can shoot energy from his fists as an Iron man. They needed to get somebody who could. Arrows on t

In this episode:
Mike and Ed discuss the latest Daily Bugle claims against Spider-Man. Does he really want to be a spider? Is he going crazy? Why do we think we can trust this psychiatrist - just because he is European? As the Daily Bugle makes more and more mistakes, at what point do we start to ignore all of its claims? Its disinformation week on Super Serious!
Behind the issue:
This is the second appearance of Mysterio. Stan uses him to good effect, creating a very different type of story. The reader is meant to believe that perhaps Spider-Man really is going crazy. You only discover at the end of the issue that Mysterio has been manipulating things with his illusions.
In this issue:
Reformed criminal Frederick Foswell (aka the Big Man) is back to reporting for the Daily Bugle. Meanwhile, renowned European psychiatrist Dr. Ludwig Rinehart visits the Bugle’s publisher J. Jonah Jameson and explains that Spider-Man has mental health issues. The Bugle then runs an article in which he explains Spider-Man’s alleged mental health issues. Spider-Man then fights what appear to be hallucinations of his past enemies, causing him to question his sanity, leading him to seeking out Dr. Rinhart for help. He experiences more hallucinations at Rinehart’s place, but ultimately Rinehart is exposed as a fraud, and more importantly, as the supervillain Mysterio!
Assumed before the next episode:
People yet again question their subscription to the Daily Bugle, which is more of a tabloid than a serious newspaper.
This episode takes place:
After Spider-Man has defeated Mysterio and reaffirmed his grasp on reality.
Full transcript:
Edward: So Mike, did the daily bugle know that the psychologist was an imposter and printed anyway, or were they hoodwinked?
Micheal: So I'm gonna say some pretty aggressive things about the daily bugle, but
Edward: do it, I think we come here for the strong opinions.
Micheal: That's right. I don't think that they purposely printed an op-ed from a fake psychiatrist with a fake opinion. I think that they were definitely hoodwinked, which I wouldn't say it's worse, but it's pretty bad. It's bad for a national newspaper such as a daily bugle to be fooled like that. And there's consequences for that type of,
Edward: Well, that's The thing is like, do you think they actually were fooled? To me the Daily Bugle has a definite bias against Spider-Man and they've been publishing all this stuff recently. They're these impartial surveys of New Yorkers and talking about how much they dislike Spider-Man and how angry they are at him for a variety of reasons they've been publish negatives about Spider-Man for a long time. And then they published a psychiatrist saying a bunch of these negative things about Spider-Man. I guess the question is did they commission it?
Micheal: So my read on it is that the bias of that newspaper and the publisher, Jay Jonah Jameson, is so strong that they were blinded by it so that they didn't follow their own journalistic principles and not vetting the fake psychiatrist and not. Fact checking things that he said in his article, at least following the process that is supposed to keep disinformation from being printed.
Edward: That makes sense. You're basically saying that they heard what they wanted to hear, and once they heard what they wanted, they didn't go and commission it, but once they were told something, it was what they wanted to hear. And so they didn't question it. They didn't go and, and Right. Looked three layers, Steve, they didn't do the investigative reporting necessary to make sure it was.
Micheal: And what's the point of the newspaper if they don't do any of that? Cause they couldn't have, from what I read from the reporting on this reporting is that this psychiatrist, wasn't he? His made up identity. And I don't know, maybe they're fooled by the fact that, Ooh, he's European. He's a European psychiatrist, if that makes any difference. It doesn't like, like did they check any of