What It's Like To Be You Josh Lavine

Kelly Ayadi [SO/SX 5w6 512] is frequenter of online Enneagram forums and a somewhat more "relational" type 5 than might be typical, given her double-people instinctual stacking and 2 fix. In this conversation, we talk about her childhood "doing her own thing" and her relationship with her 9 partner, her kids, and her family. Kelly's framing of certain emotions as "unnecessary" is illuminating, as is her relationship with expressing love in a way that reaches the other person and appreciation for acts of kindness from her partner. I feel this conversation is very helpful in showing how 5s differ from 9s, and more broadly how 5s operate in relationship via rejection in the mental center.

Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/my3JxeaIHvM

Get Typed: https://www.enneagrammer.com/get-typed

The Enneagram School: https://www.theenneagramschool.com/

 

Timestamps

0:00 Intro

2:42 Little Kelly

5:45 Kelly's work at dept of human services

8:19 Conversation anchorpoints

9:13 "Professional student," doing my own path, not having to deal with outside noise & relationships

13:13 People-y stacking "vs" 5 private, uncooperative

15:51 Drone operator as 5 metaphor

17:26 Not wanting to be touched; doing own thing

21:58 What is my "own thing"? People fascination

24:32 Partner as specimen(?)

27:18 Withdrawing in relationship, won't compromise self

30:35 Our Courtship; defending me online was "unnecessary"

35:16 Rejection-Attachment dynamic in relationship; appreciating "unnecessary" kindness

41:52 Untouchable independence; emotional neutrality

44:19 Unpacking "Unnecessary"

46:54 Fantasy of lower emotionality everywhere

49:43 Not entering other's frame (Avarice); non-reciprocal expectations: "you come to me, I don't go to you"

53:15 First relationship I *want* to make work; becoming more flexible?

59:37 Entering others frame as rejection type

1:02:16 Painful learning I wasn't a "Nurturing" mom

1:05:27 I want to be loving but don't know how

1:10:15 Were you nurtured? Did it matter?

1:13:46 Pain of not being seen as competent; disconnect about "What matters?"

1:20:26 Pain being the black sheep the "off" one

1:22:00 A good moment with her father

1:24:36 Kelly/Josh's responses to her "heartwarming" story

1:29:43 Intellectually framing experience before I can feel it - what's helped?

1:33:05 What's this been like for you?

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#enneagram #enneagramtypes #enneagramtype5 #enneagram5 #enneagraminterview

I present to you the audio of the infamous Mascara Incident (which we don't talk about). This was recorded in December 2022, about 9 months before Courtney's official video interview. In this conversation, we explore Courtney's experience as an Attachment type in the Mental center, her typing journey (starting at 1, landing on 6), and her 6-ish journey to uncovering original insights about Object Relations and sharing them on the Big Hormone Enneagram podcast. We also touch on Alexander Technique and other grounding practices that helped Courtney discover her Inner Authority and her body's ability to discern Truth. 

Courtney's Website: courtneysmithconsulting.com

The Enneagram School: https://www.theenneagramschool.com/

Courtney on BHE: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bhe-36-object-relations-daggers-to-the-heart-part-1/id1493756268?i=1000489894365

Get typed: https://www.enneagrammer.com/get-typed

 

Timestamps

0:00 Intro

2:27 Enneagram origin story; conscious leadership group; resisting 6, mistyping as 1 (hopeful identification, similar to 9->4)

8:17 How'd you realize you were a 6?

11:40 Complexity around 6 & "Inner Guidance" --> journey to 6 demonstrating 6's relationship with "authority," attachment & reactivity together, argumentativeness, "pressure-testing"

15:47 What builds trust -- ENGAGEMENT, willingness to engage -- "Are you gonna play that game with me?"; wanting other to be certain, yet also willing to meet me in uncertainty

19:19 Stamina for this kind of "engaging"

20:33 Looking for stability, "up there" in the mental space, where you can't find it

24:25 What's helped you ground? Footwork, balance, improving sensation, Alexander Technique, Letting the breath catch up with the mind

28:12 What is Alexander Technique? Why good for 6?

33:40 "Over-muscling": the body creating a false anchor from the mind being overused

38:02 Working with 6s, coach's pov; kinesthetic modeling; how are *you* showing up as coach?

41:53 Exploring: being settled in your own energy as a coach vs "entering their storm"

45:27 On Courtney claiming her inner authority, making discoveries in Object Relations, sharing on BHE

50:27 6 seeking coherence in the map

55:28 Why so important for things to make sense? Fear of randomness; "Faith" that "the pieces should fit together

58:30 Exploring attachment, Courtney's obsessive journey of discovering her insights; attachment, denial of self, responding to parental failure

1:02:21 Courtney's Object Relations insights applied to herself; energy towards maintaining "good relationships," but "on what terms?"

1:04:28 Examples!: mindful of teacher's perspectives, wary to contradict, assuming my ideas are derivative; how do I say something without saying others are wrong? (which compromises relationship)

1:10:49 Putting relationship at risk by having a different view

1:14:26 Courtney's 5 wing

1:21:50 What's it like now to have "exposed yourself as an authority?" .. Resistance to claiming it 

1:26:26 Why does someone *want* to be an authority?

1:29:35 Tension between my 3 & Courtney's 6 in seeing her as an authority

1:36:29 Texture on words that originally had no juice for Courtney: Attachment, Support, Loyalty, Duty, Responsibility

1:42:44 Heart vs Head Center main preoccupation

1:45:41 Thank you's

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Pixabay: https://pixabay.com/

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#enneagram #enneagramtypes #enneagram6 #enneagramtype6 #enneagraminterview

Courtney Smith [SO/SP 6w5 631] is a brilliant & original Enneagram thinker who has contributed hugely to our understanding of Object Relations. In this conversation, we explore her life as a 6 navigating her desire to work within systems and to rebel against them, and ultimately cultivating a more grounded relationship to her inner authority. Courtney's insights are illuminating and penetrating as always.

Courtney's Website: courtneysmithconsulting.com

YouTube Version of Interview: https://youtu.be/FQ418io7E7A

https://www.theenneagramschool.com/

Timestamps:

0:00 Intro

3:15 Interview Start & Josh's messy hair

4:30 Setting up Courtney's biography

5:36 Do you hold a sense of your life story as a 6?

6:53 Professional trajectory as the way in; family all doctors & lawyers roles, safe, traditional

8:22 Law school, annoying incongruence, "It'd be easier if I liked this!"

9:23 Gender & Enneagram lens in college, split & trying to integrate analytical & quantitative, only-women-in-math-class and no-men-in-women's-studies; what's my place?

10:30 8 yrs old, "Mom, I'm not gonna stay here" -- wanting out, but not knowing "What do you want to go toward?"

13:20 Courtney's choice of major and minor mathematical economics & women's studies, navigating polarities; qualitative/quantitative, men/women

17:20 "Trying to have it both ways": high achieving within a system & rebelling against the system

20:23 At McKinsey, working super hard, doing what I'm "supposed to do," and disagreeing with it all

25:44 "If it's listened to..."; 6s feeling a lack of agency to shape reality, not willing to risk external authority's alliance; "There's nothing I can do about this. I have no choice."

31:16 Josh's 6 fix relating

33:52 Considered med school, then had baby - focus on reproductive justice, planned parenthood

36:09 focusing only on family was a "bad choice for me" -- left behind key aspects of self

38:33 Self-abandonment: Not taking responsibility for poor choices; "I had no choice!"; none of the credit, none of the blame

43:12 Shift of personal development work, conscious leadership group; "I have to take responsibility" for where I am

46:19 Before and after inner work; changed my life, but "your shit is your shit," esp in "real life" raising kids, home during covid, etc -- you get a new relationship to your patterns

52:11 Relationship now to public health, new life as coach

54:11 New relationship to the inner storm, reactivity; part of me watching myself have a tantrum, not taking it too seriously

57:39 Courtney's playfulness 1:00:30 6s & body work; getting lost in idea-space and finding the inner compass somatically; "Truth lies in the body"

1:07:47 Compulsive reading; skepticism: "I wanna check this out for myself," check people's sources, put the picture together from the ground up

1:11:32 6's devotional heart, contributing to greater whole

1:13:34 On working alone; not questioning life path any more, but still micro-questions about form of current work

1:16:37 Courtney the dragon; being myself the biggest gift I can give

1:20:37 Safari experience: "What you're transmitting is amazing and has nothing to do with your words"; Ian McGilchrist book, left-right brain language - non-language communication

1:28:00 What's this been like?

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Pixabay: https://pixabay.com/

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#enneagram #enneagramtypes #enneagram6 #enneagramtype6 #enneagraminterview

Siena Hassett [SX/SO 8w7 827] is a Theatre Maker, Movement Artist, and someone who really embodies the virtue of the 8 -- Innocence: the joyful unselfconscious expression of one's life-force, and the willingness to be affected by one's environment. Siena is so alive and engaging, and I couldn't help but be moved by her wide open presence in this conversation. I really appreciate how we moved from "caricaturing" her 8ness in the first 15 minutes to unveiling her real sensitivity and heart, especially as we explore her relationship to her art -- and how we navigated that transition together. I'm very proud to release this conversation. This is what it's all about. Enjoy.

https://sienahassett.com/

www.theenneagramschool.com www.joshlavine.com

Listen as podcast: https://www.joshlavine.com/podcasts/what-it-s-like-to-be-you/episodes/2148078776

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Timestamps:

0:00 Intro

2:54 Open ended start: what's your type and why is it true? "Going through the object"

7:10 8 connection to action

11:20 Fear of "deadness," Amping up the situation

15:11 Taking a minute; new direction: life story from college

20:13 Movement art; why apply to corporeal mime school?

21:44 Professor: "I miss having you cry in class."

23:33 Radical decision, moving for this program; "It's what the work needed," SX instinct

26:45 Program before/after, sense of ease, freedom

29:22 Why so passionate about movement art? "It's what my body wants to do"

31:23 Alive moments with the audience; being with the people that night -- my favorite thing

34:08 "What it is tonight"; "What's here right now?"

39:05 Enneagram boxiness vs aliveness -- exploring Siena as an *artist* reveals her 8 gifts; exploring Siena as an *8* lends to caricature

42:58 Being in the river; quality of stillness

43:55 What does it feel like when the search (for aliveness) isn't going well?

47:05 Legs

51:32 This moment feels really beautiful

56:42 Why do we forget to be present? 58:47 Picking fights -- what's it like? why does it happen?

1:05:47 Mystery of fighting -- sometimes useful, sometimes not; over- and under-expressing anger

1:08:24 "My body gets so hot inside so fast"; Hard to sit with the anger; 2 stories - retail, & guy with a dog

1:12:39 Inner work for 8; expanding window of tolerance for the heat, not being run by the reflex

1:18:21 Innocence of the 8

1:19:39 What was this like for you?

1:21:26 Birth story -- fighting for my life

1:25:14 When I feel received, I can receive

1:26:41 Final thoughts & thank yous

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#enneagram #enneagram8 #enneagramtypes #enneagrameight #enneagramtype8

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Coma-Media: https://pixabay.com/users/coma-media-24399569/

Pixabay: https://pixabay.com/

Alexandra Arroyo-Acevedo [SO/SP 9w1 963] is a brilliant Enneagram thinker with a very evocative and inspiring triple attachment life story. There’s no one I trust more to explain Attachment from the inside. Alexandra’s insights have been transformative for me, and for many in our community. Find her on the Big Hormone Enneagram podcast, on YouTube doing Enneagram breakdowns of the Bachelorette, and on her website, where you can book a natal chart reading with her as well.

Alexandra's Website: http://saturnruled9.com/ Alexandra's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@saturnruled9 Big Hormone Enneagram Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/big-hormone-enneagram/id1493756268

The Enneagram School: www.theenneagramschool.com Josh Lavine: www.joshlavine.com

Watch on Youtube: https://youtu.be/EhHqHEIJdqU

Timestamps:

0:00 Intro

3:49 Attachment Support Group Plug

6:03 What happened the first time we tried this interview

10:05 What's different now?

13:23 The importance of being witnessed in playful unself-conscious states

17:08 Prompt: Alexandra’s life story as an SO Bermuda 9

18:56 I was passively accepting, not "choosing" friends / romantic partners

20:42 "Who am I to say no?" - absence of red flags, not looking for green flags; unpacking the word “danger”

24:43 Ex-fiance was "safe"; passively accepted his proposal (!); Attachment: saying yes to the possibility that we could one day be on the same page

29:50 Social 9 -- Not revealing my full mind when others’ eyes gloss over; my inner self not a match for my environment, so I don't put it out there; why 9 needs to go to 3

35:22 Attachment victimhood self-deception: "You're not making space for me" vs I'm withholding myself

37:24 Prolonging relationship: "I was really good at dividing myself”

39:03 The "atomic bomb,” meeting John; Alexandra’s self-revival through online chats about Enneagram; going to New York “the first real action ever took for myself;” framing it to myself as "It's no big deal, if it doesn't work out, I'll just come back home" preemptive defense against being affected

46:20 Numbness prevents 9 from realizing how hungry their soul is; lifeforce has intelligence independent of personality re: what's nourishing / renewing for it

50:58 The lightning strike moment, radical (fast!) change, and the illusion that I've conquered attachment

57:01 How Attachment patterns crept back in

1:00:45 Being anchored to a new rung on the consciousness ladder; not wanting to abandon your new self-sense

1:02:48 Ambivalence toward astrology from being pinned as an "astrology person" -- private sacred interest now exposed to gaze that revs attachment/performance engine

1:08:55 The "practice" of unself-conscious play

1:10:28 Autonomy insistence of 9; making free choices without pressure; knowing that a choice is "mine," made by me

1:13:59 John's mirroring of me to myself, yet constantly re-attuning to what I'm excited by

1:19:05 Social intimacy, choosing and being chosen from your constituted center, grief about emotionally distant friendships, that pattern changing

1:27:41 Sweet Friendship moments

1:30:47 What's this been like? (& how long it took to get this interview, ha!; sign off)

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 #enneagram #enneagramtypes #enneagram9 #enneagramtype9 #enneagraminterview #9w1

Kristen Oberly [SO/SP 9w1 963] is an exceptionally gifted dream analyst, artist, and guide for the unconscious realm. We explore her misdiagnosis with paranoid schizophrenia, her bouts with depersonalization, and the way she has come back home to herself by following her fascination with the unconscious. A very interesting and particular case of Social Bermuda 9, but the core 9 themes are certainly here: numbness, dissociation, and coming back to life by following the natural flow of my life force.

To Find Kristen – Personal Website: https://www.inkstoryrebel.com/Sinsomnia Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/cz/podcast/sinsomnia/id1684154994

Josh's Links – www.theenneagramschool.comwww.joshlavine.com

Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/Cr6-ZCd6z-Y

Timestamps:

0:00 Intro

5:27 When two bermudas meet; You've made a spash; original contributions: dreams, trifix art -- SO tracking "how people earn respect in this group," getting typed

9:48 Lurking in groups; do you feel like one now? "in shock" that my contribution went anywhere

12:55 Interview anchor points: typing, misdiagnosis paranoid schizophrenia; depersonalization; living in "alternate dimension"

15:22 "She's in her own little world" growing up; hallucinations

19:40 What is paranoid schizophrenia?; relief in diagnosis, being located, "this is what I am," a thing to tell others

23:11 "Betrayal of all 3 centers"

26:10 Timeline of diagnosis & symptoms; what's depersonalization?

32:10 9-ness and depersonalization

35:35 What's helped?

37:30 Guinea pigs screaming -- a dream example that helped you come home to your body

42:31 Physical reality not affecting me, but unconscious dream world waking me up (literally)

45:02 Toggling on/off of existing; checking out

48:05 Genuine inspiration of dreams calling you back alive; Avatar Kristen, interfacing spirit world and physical reality

54:12 SO 9 - fear of making others uncomfortable?

58:38 Kristen's flow state; mastery & precision, poking the nerve, freedom from typology in her moments of interpreting dreams

1:04:52 Kristen's dark witchy vibe & "bite" contrasted with "harmonious" 9 vibe

1:10:16 Kristen's 9 Bermuda Swirl vs Josh's 3 version

1:15:48 Kristen's Art Bermuda Swirl, honing in on "archetypal" art

1:19:46 The Bermuda Swirl's Intelligence

1:26:37 What’s this been like?

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#enneagram #enneagramtypes #enneagram9 #enneagramtype9 #enneagraminterview #9w1