9 episodes

Ever wonder what’s really going on in other people’s heads? The Enneagram knows. In these intimate conversations with people of different Enneagram types, we go past the facade of image management and self-presentation to the real stuff on the inside.

What It's Like To Be You Josh Lavine

    • Education
    • 5.0 • 3 Ratings

Ever wonder what’s really going on in other people’s heads? The Enneagram knows. In these intimate conversations with people of different Enneagram types, we go past the facade of image management and self-presentation to the real stuff on the inside.

    Ikraam Ali on Being a 7: Procrastinating Darkness, Frustration with Negativity AS Negativity, and Giving an "Honest Try" at Positivity (SO/SX 7w6 793)

    Ikraam Ali on Being a 7: Procrastinating Darkness, Frustration with Negativity AS Negativity, and Giving an "Honest Try" at Positivity (SO/SX 7w6 793)

    Ikraam Ali is a Type 7 (SO/SX 7w6 793) who works in local politics. She also has her own YouTube channel focused on Objective Personality System (OPS). This conversation challenged the stereotype of 7s as “positive” types and reframed the 7 pattern “positive outlook” way of being from a frustration lens — in particular, frustration with negativity, which paradoxically creates its own kind of negativity. We get into deep territory here: Ikraam’s relationship with negativity itself and her bout with depression, and aspects of her telling of the story surfaced aspects of the 7 personality, which Ikraam explored gracefully in real time.

    Ikraam’s YouTube Channel, skib n mope: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCJSIvPgvDJwao-ssyXrJLw

    Enneagram[mer] Universe Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/enneagrammeruniverse

    Watch Interview on YouTube: https://youtu.be/HjkwZQXIlow

    Timestamps:

    0:00 Intro2:53 Enneagram origin story5:22 "Taste Testing" her way to the Enneagram; OPS & Enneagram really capturing her8:54 Being satiated by an interest; 7 line to 5; a funny moment: "can I swear here?”11:56 Enneagram as "depressing," it's a "horrifying hobby" not a fun one15:48 7 not exactly 'positive'; procrastinating darkness, not metabolizing negativity (really good definitional stuff)18:05 Using the word "depression" lightly yet referencing deep pain; 19:07 Seeing negativity and wanting to be positive "makes you negative"; sensitivity to others "giving up" on being happy20:38 7 as frustration type, contrasts with 1 & 422:42 Envisioning a better future; Kid Cudi's (a 7) songs get negative but focus or "tend toward" an uplifting vision or possibility26:04 Somatic buoyancy, inner teflon; “How do you feel right now, talking about negativity?”29:02 Fixated on "keeping things interesting"; the horror of boredom. Religious stories -- "stimulating" hellfire & brimstone vs boring repeats34:50 Freedom vs Joy / Delight; 7 as "The Freedom Seeker”36:12 Comparing head types 5, 6, 7; attachment vs frustration in the mental center (6 vs 7); "I'm on my own roller coaster”39:42 On metabolizing negativity; growing up & seeing unfairness in the world, needing to reframe it, hold a positive vision for it46:16 What helped you face the grief / dissoance between positive vision and reality / the feeling of being trapped in negative life?49:43 Scary to talk about negative things happening now -- easier to reflect retrospectively, because it's over51:38 7 assertiveness helping me deal with / move through depression54:35 Jittery in sharing the story; discomfort that "i'm not feeling it." What's underneath the jitters? 59:25 The undercurrent of suffering that has defined her life trajectory; "An honest try at bringing positivity"; addicted to volunteering1:04:20 How do you feel right now? Vulnerable to talk about this stuff.1:05:50 The soul of the 7 - transforming suffering into something uplifting1:06:58 Final comments

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    Music by Coma-Media from PixabayComa-Media: https://pixabay.com/users/coma-media-24399569/Pixabay: https://pixabay.com/

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    • 1 hr 8 min
    Dr. Mary Bates on Being a Type 6: the 6’s Core Sense of Responsibility, the Practice of Making Deliberate Mistakes, and How to Know When to Stop Brushing the Dog (SP/SO 6w7 692)

    Dr. Mary Bates on Being a Type 6: the 6’s Core Sense of Responsibility, the Practice of Making Deliberate Mistakes, and How to Know When to Stop Brushing the Dog (SP/SO 6w7 692)

    Dr. Mary Bates is a Type 6 (SP/SO 6w7 692) primary care doctor, writer, and mother of 2. Mary discovered she is a 6 with the help of the Enneagrammer typing team after having mistyped as a 2 and a 9, the other two types in her trifix. More than anything, this conversation awoke in me a new reverence the 6’s sense of sacred responsibility and “core of humanity,” which permeates Mary’s life and way of being — both as a doctor, and as an inner anchor for her in surviving major childhood trauma. Our conversation also opened up interesting questions about what anxiety “really” is. Enjoy.

    Subscribe to my newsletter here: https://www.joshlavine.com/ 

    Watch on YouTube here: https://youtu.be/_xxAdpRFULo

    Timestamps:

    0:00 Intro

    3:15 Enneagram Origin Story, mistyping as 2 and 9; discovering I’m a 6

    10:17 “In my defense" - "I've thought of everything"; not wanting to be exposed for having not thought of something

    12:17 On realizing I was an anxious person; finding better words for "anxiety" - what really is anxiety?

    16:46 692 the "healing trifix" - doctor fit

    18:51 How do I know when to stop brushing the dog? -- "Have I covered everything / thought of everything?"

    19:49 The pleasure of looking behind the curtain, "what's really going on here?" (a hugely overlooked and essential gift of the 6)

    21:46 Exploring anxiety as the question: "How do I know when to stop X?" E.g. stop over-analyzing, looking around the corner, finding another answer, etc

    24:49 A perfect 6 story - "Should I pull over to read the text?"

    27:03 What helps with the indecision of 6? "Taking yourself by the hand and doing it even though it's scary" 

    29:25 The practice of making deliberate mistakes; what a "practice" really is, custom practices for your nervous system

    32:03 Reactivity, being provocative, negative; "If something needs to be said, I'll say it"

    38:28 Duty, responsibility, and concern as core ways of being

    41:04 Double super-ego trifix. "If I feel I can, I must”; Why is it hard to shirk responsibility?

    43:51 6-9 stem and anti-narcissism - "Whatever you want for dinner" -- "sure" -- realizing that it's annoying!

    47:59 Justifying localizing myself by the reasoning that it makes me less burdensome to others

    53:07 Silence (a beautiful moment of...)

    57:14 Mary's survival of capital “T” Trauma, - the “inner core of humanity” that sustained her

    1:01:11 Doctor as vocation; the "gnosis" of realizing: “I could be a doctor!”; 692 trifix singing through your life

    1:06:16 "You didn’t ask me what it’s like to be introduced!" (ha!) 6-ish anticipation & response

    1:08:27 Conclusion

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    Music by Coma-Media from

    Pixabay Coma-Media: https://pixabay.com/users/coma-media-24399569/ 

    Pixabay: https://pixabay.com/ ---

    • 1 hr 10 min
    Artist Jess on being a Type 5: Risking Exposure, the Symbolic Objects I Put Between Us, and the Terror of Mindless, Soul-Dead Zombie-People (SO/SP 5w6 538)

    Artist Jess on being a Type 5: Risking Exposure, the Symbolic Objects I Put Between Us, and the Terror of Mindless, Soul-Dead Zombie-People (SO/SP 5w6 538)

    Jess is a Type 5 (SO/SP 5w6 538) writer and artist “based on the internet.” Like many 5s, she prefers her privacy and requested that I mention no signifiers of her identity beyond the above. She originally typed as a 7, which given the way she presents, is no surprise. Jess takes on a a whimsical romp through "pleasure gardens," symbolic objects, and the terror of soul-dead zombie-people. This conversation really challenged my understanding of 5-ness. It was fascinating to explore how her withdrawn, rejection core -- underpinned by two assertive fixes -- "deals with" the social drive for connection while maintaining separateness. Enjoy.

    Subscribe to my newsletter here: https://www.joshlavine.com/

    Watch on YouTube here: https://youtu.be/OTpE3lL1dHw

    Timestamps:

    0:00 Intro

    2:24 Interview start; “living on the internet”; the desire not to be found

    4:52 Avarice; contrasting social desire for connection & withdrawal of 5; being a stranger in a strange land

    8:13 the pleasure garden, disappointment that the other can’t see they’re in a garden; loneliness

    12:08 Enneagram origin story, thinking I was a 7, getting typed as 5

    14:58 The symbolic object that I place between us

    19:43 My hidden intellectual agenda (or, unspoken hope); the 5 tendency to provoke

    22:43 Seeking connection through the mind; “can you withstand this” - they probably can’t but might as well f**k around and find out

    25:03 Missing connection through the body during pandemic; yet sensory overload of physical presence

    26:58 Social instinct yearnings vs 5-ness; the “something” I’m looking for

    31:35 “F**k it” energy; whimsy

    33:28 What “MATTERS” and what it means for something to be “MINE” - I’m the source of it; What matters is autonomy to learn, research, process, create — the tinkering itself, not the result

    40:47 Where do you locate your “self” internally? Body awareness in space

    46:49 Inner work? Creativity, dream analysis, meditation.

    50:23 Her art & thematic underpinnings: “I don’t do anything that doesn’t also mean something else.”

    52:19 Alchemy of art; art as self-discovery; 5 impulse for discovery pointed inward

    56:28 Not important that others see my art; the expectation that others will fail to see “it” or “me”

    1:03:03 538 trifix; 3 fix as “tether to reality — can’t forget about the other”; conflict between 5 and 3 fix — want to be seen, but uncomfortable

    1:05:53 On protecting my heart; hoops to jump through before i reveal it

    1:08:49 Terror & mindless, soul-dead zombie-people; FEAR in general — I be drained, inconvenienced by other humanS

    1:15:13 The risk of exposure - “a thread would be pulled and everything would come apart at the seams”

    1:18:41 Zombie fear reprise: terrifying because what?? they’ll unknowingly suck something away from me in “reckless, heartless consumption”; head types: “fear all the way down”

    1:22:01What’s this like for you?

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    Music by Coma-Media from Pixabay Coma-Media: https://pixabay.com/users/coma-media-24399569/ Pixabay: https://pixabay.com/

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    #enneagram #enneagramtypes #enneagramtype5 #enneagraminterview

    • 1 hr 24 min
    Enneagram Teacher John Luckovich on Being a 4: the Inner Middle Finger, the Crushing Gloss of Artifice, and the Sourcing of Identity in Depth Itself (SX/SP 4w5 458)

    Enneagram Teacher John Luckovich on Being a 4: the Inner Middle Finger, the Crushing Gloss of Artifice, and the Sourcing of Identity in Depth Itself (SX/SP 4w5 458)

    John Luckovich is one of the most brilliant and authentic Enneagram teachers of my generation. His teaching is clear, challenging, thought-provoking, and comes from sincere desire to illuminate the psyche and immersion in his own inner work. His book, The Instinctual Drives and the Enneagram, presents the first ever coherent theory of instincts that incorporates evolutionary biology and developmental psychology, and it successfully argues for the instincts' centrality in spiritual transformation. I think very highly of John, and I'm excited for you to learn from him in this conversation.

    John's Typing: (SX/SP 4w5 458)John's Website: https://www.johnluckovich.com/Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/oRYgOdMpbNg

    Timestamps:

    00:00 Intro 2:54 What’s it like to be introduced? Silly, cartoonish 4:01 Enneagram origin story 6:11 Contrasting how 3 & 4 experience identity - John's professional journey in Enneagram world 11:21 The Enneagram’s sacred, eternal insight & way it renders reality 15:11 Growing up in Atlanta “everything was like a giant mall..." dead, glossy, lifeless artifice 18:11 The Enneagram humiliates the personality; “Where else do you go to locate identity?” 20:56 Inner work for John; becoming more “open”; expanding the 4’s narrow emotional range 25:50 Contrasting 2, 3 & 4. 4 is part of identity that is “singularly my own.” The inner life of 4s. 33:21 4s showing you that “I’m different”; 4’s natural allergy to other’s trying to get them to “be on the same page”; the inner middle finger 38:31: What is "Depth?" a sense of mystery, reaching, a “saturation of one’s experience,” “a beauty that moves your soul” 44:10 Why doing taxes feels "not deep,” and what it means to relax the “grasping” for depth 47:10 John’s book -- promoting it vs writing it; 4’s “resistance to functioning,” the writing & research motivated by self- and topic-discovery 58:50 The 4’s appreciation of others’ depth; misunderstandings of “authenticity”; sensing when other people are “resonating with themselves” 1:07:10 “Does that make sense?” - what’s that about? - social blind, not sensing if we’re on the same page 1:09:25 “What’s this been like for you?” some bro love

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    Music by Coma-Media from Pixabay Coma-Media: https://pixabay.com/users/coma-media-24399569/ Pixabay: https://pixabay.com/ 

    • 1 hr 13 min
    Kelsey Bishop (Founder of Candor) on Being a Type 3: Chasing "The Dream" vs "My Dream," Authenticity at Work, and Learning How to Rest

    Kelsey Bishop (Founder of Candor) on Being a Type 3: Chasing "The Dream" vs "My Dream," Authenticity at Work, and Learning How to Rest

    Kelsey Bishop is a Type 3 (SP/SO 3w4 386) whose shift from chasing "The Dream" to discovering her dream tangibly illustrates the 3's growth journey. She is the Founder of Candor, a new kind of professional network dedicated to increasing fulfillment at work by helping you discover and share "how you work." I find Kelsey inspiring and refreshingly self-revealing. We get into some good core 3 stuff like work/activity as self-regulation and what it means to rest and restore oneself. This convo is a really good, "straight down the middle" intro to the Type 3.

    Check out Candor here: joincandor.comKelsey’s Twitter: @kelseyCBishop

    Watch the interview on YouTube: https://youtu.be/WnSf-df74iA Join my email list and get my Free Self-Development Tools Guide: https://www.joshlavine.com/

    Timestamps:

    00:00 Intro 3:47 What’s it like to be introduced? 5:00 Learning the Enneagram at work, discovering I was a 3 7:50 Work as self-regulation; “My desired mode is to be working”; checking things off, feeling accomplished; the “safe haven” of work (from emotions) 10:50 Contrasting work I love and work I don’t love; “It’s so easy to see what people want me to do” 12:35 On chasing “The Dream,” joining a rocketship, not liking it 20:15 Quit the company she didn’t like and took time for reflection: “That wasn’t me. So... what is me?” - how do you know? 22:45 Oil painting practice: “I feel good when I paint”; struggling with not feeling productive, but doing it anyway. “What makes me feel grounded?” 25:05 Founding Candor “feels like the most me thing I’ve ever done.’ “It’s definitely not The Dream. It’s definitely my dream. 27:15 What’s Candor? Why it’s “my dream.” Candor’s 3-ish flavor. Celebrating people. Bringing our full selves to work. Fulfilling potential. 31:10 3 integrating to 6. “For so long I thought work was checking things off a list and feeling accomplished. But when it’s tied to a deeper mission, it feels like magic.” 34:20 On feeling emotions. “In college I was human doer.” The fear that if I feel my emotions, “I’ll never stop crying.” The tradeoff — feel my emotions now or deal with the backlog later. 41:45 Body-mind / heart separation in the 3 44:45 Relationship with rest. Feeling “indulgent,” self-critical. Trying more unplanned “restorative” days, not overplanned “vacation.” 47:45 What it means to be restored. “Giving my brain a rest”; the discipline to meditate and the excuses that come up 50:30 3 as founder, raising money, being rejected by investors is like they’re rejecting “me”; getting comfortable with “failing” 58:50 3 as leader/CEO. Leading a team. Openness and authenticity as part of the culture. 1:03:45 Vulnerable retro after letting someone go; “Here’s where I messed up.” Setting a precedent for honest self-reflection. High side of 3 1:09:00 Conclusion

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    Music by Coma-Media from Pixabay Coma-Media: https://pixabay.com/users/coma-media-24399569/ Pixabay: https://pixabay.com/ 

    • 1 hr 11 min
    Therapist Niklas Wilkens on Being a Type 2: the Inner Hope Machine, Power Tripping as "Super Jesus," and Seeing Through Ego Pride (SO/SP 2w3 269)

    Therapist Niklas Wilkens on Being a Type 2: the Inner Hope Machine, Power Tripping as "Super Jesus," and Seeing Through Ego Pride (SO/SP 2w3 269)

    Niklas Wilkens is a humanistic depth psychologist practicing in Germany, and he’s been working with the Enneagram for 14 years, although only 2 years ago realized that he was an Enneagram 2. Niklas honestly blew me away with his very personal and high resolution description of his 2-ness (despite mistyping as a 5 for 11 years!). We get into why 2 is a rejection type, the "inner hope machine," why 2s can come across as creepy, and what it took for him to start really seeing himself. Really (really) good stuff.

    Read his blog: https://liebeundklarheit.com

    Want to work with Niklas? Email him at: psychotherapie.wilkens@gmx.de

    Watch our convo on YouTube here: https://youtu.be/BAfEVPXSuL8

    In this conversation, we get into some REALLY good stuff:

    - Realizing I thought my type was “universal," & how mistyping influences the value you see in the enneagram and the way you think of typology in general - Realizing I was a 2, shaking and crying, no longer being able to delude myself that I was coming from a purely selfless, loving place - 2 as a rejection type, not attachment type; “the hope machine” — I don’t believe being loved is possible, but I’m going go out to you anyway, hoping it reflects back to me - what happens when someone tries to love me, to pierce through my own hopelessness - what happens when the “image” is pierced through and shattered, and the most sensitive part of you is exposed - The realization that there is an autonomous heart organ underneath my image - The trouble of organizing birthdays, when I don’t have anything to offer other than myself - Watching myself as a 2 therapist — the compulsion to move into others’ psychological space; sensing the other person’s readiness for the work; the beauty of seeing others’ vulnerability - The heart nourishment of mattering to someone in therapy; when someone’s vulnerability is exposed, it matters how I treat you (in contrast to “the world” where people are numb) - Watching for when I’m using clients as evidence for my hope machine. “If I can help this person, maybe all is not lost. And maybe my interventions (which “are me”) work! - Power tripping as “Super Jesus,” the “power of love,” - Contact with Essential Love when someone really does see me - 2s talk about doing something out of selflessness, they’re usually honest, since that’s all they’re aware of (!) - not seeing the contradiction between being selfless and morally indignant that my efforts aren’t reciprocated - the path to ego transparency — marshall rosenberg & NVC; being with spontaneous emotions that aren’t necessarily shaped by my image with therapist help; - the vigilance of image types - 2s being creepy & the pressure they put on you to reciprocate; “leverage”

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    Check out my newsletter, blog, & free self-development guides here: https://www.joshlavine.com/

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    Music by Coma-Media from Pixabay Coma-Media: https://pixabay.com/users/coma-media-24399569/ Pixabay: https://pixabay.com/

    • 1 hr 31 min

Customer Reviews

5.0 out of 5
3 Ratings

3 Ratings

floyd data ,

JL, Friend of the Enneagram Universe

I am a huge fan of the Big Hormone Enneagram podcast, so when I had heard that Emeka Okafor was going to be the first guest on Josh Lavine’s podcast, I couldn’t wait for the first episode to drop. It did not disappoint. Josh Lavine moderates spirited, layered, & challenging Enneagram conversations. The birth of a new planet in the Enneagram Universe. Ya-freaking-hoo.

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