Religious Life Podcast The Rev. Duncan Hilton

Have you ever sensed something true and beautiful in the words and witness of the likes of Martin Luther King Jr, Cesar Chavez, or Dorothy Day – Christians who believed that the gross inequality in America was sinful; that the inequality had more to do with sinful societal structures than with individual behavior; and that Christians bear responsibility for resisting and reforming those systems? Have you ever wondered about the history of this theological tradition which scholars call “social Christianity ”, and what knowing that history can teach us about how to keep the tradition alive today?

I talked about these matters with Heath Carter, Associate Professor of American Christianity at Princeton Theological Seminary and its  Director of PhD studies. Heath is the author of numerous books and articles, including Union Made: Working People and the Rise of Social Christianity in Chicago (Oxford University Press, 2015). We talked about: his call as a professor writing at the intersection of Christianity and American public life; why he thinks we’re living in a “New Gilded Age” and what that means for the direction of the social Christian tradition today; understanding the place of the Catholic Worker in the social Christian lineage; and why he’s an “evangelist for institutions.”

Beyond just the pleasure of learning more about the history of the social Christian tradition, I enjoyed Heath’s honesty and optimism about the decline of mainline Protestant churches. Speaking about Princeton Seminary he said, “We've been in the past a finishing school for elite Presbyterians, and all these worlds that we've long served are now going away. And so, what new life will come up in the midst, even as this thing that is definitely dying is dying, and in my lifetime will be mostly gone?” I appreciated how Heath could hold two things to be true, in a single sentence and in a whole interview: the reality of the breakdown of the “ecclesiastical machinery”, and the simultaneous possibility for the emergence of creative and daring new ministries, and important and long-lasting institutional reforms.

Go to duncanhilton.net or https://duncanhilton.substack.com/ for a post about this podcast and more links to Heath's work and background related to the interview.

How does a White Evangelical guy from Southern California end up as a jail chaplain and pastor to Latino gang members in the Skagit Valley, north of Seattle? How has that work been a process of mutual transformation for him and the men he works with? How do differences in White and Latino cultures affect the possibilities and challenges of ministry in jail? How does the White Savior complex manifest in him and in the churches he equips? What spiritual practices “work” for men in solitary confinement? What are the broader lessons for Christians about with whom and where to read the Bible, the connection between visiting the imprisoned and genuinely belonging to a place, and the messiness and gloriousness of following Jesus?

I talked about all this with Chris Hoke – Founder and Executive Director of Underground Ministries, Presbyterian minister, author, father, and husband.  Chris has been working as a jail chaplain in the Skagit Valley for nearly twenty years. In 2015 he wrote Wanted: A Spiritual Pursuit Through Jail, Among Outlaws, and Across Borders (HarperCollins) about his own journey and transformations in the gang members he has worked with. As a chaplain he also founded Underground Coffee, a roasting business employing formerly incarcerated people, and Underground Writing, a writing program for at-risk communities.

For all his success, what stood out most from our conversation was Chris’ honesty and vulnerability about his failure. In 2018 Chris learned about betrayal and deceit committed by Neaners - a former gang member whom Chris had accompanied as a chaplain through prison and release, one of the main people in his book, his Underground Ministry Co-Founder, and a “best friend” and “primary teacher.” Chris reflected on his terror, shame, despair and near nervous breakdown as the truth came to light;  his own willful blindness leading up to the revelation; and how, out of that trial, and despite his initial resistance, Chris started with others the One Prisoner One Parish program to equip faith communities to build supportive relationships with prisoners and accompany them after their release.

Helpful Links:


I found this article to be a helpful summary of the theological framing for One Parish One Prisoner. It connects the Eastern Orthodox understanding of resurrection as breaking open the gates of Hades with “unburying” people from mass incarceration.


This written interview with Chris goes into more detail about the connections Chris sees between the history and ecology of the Skagit Valley and its prison population


You can read more of Chris’ work and listen to him here.


Chris refers to a handful of academic and theologians whose lives or work has shaped him: Tony Campolo, James Allison, Rene Girard, Michelle Alexander  


To get involved with One Parish One Prisoner, or to make a donation, go here


Chris talks about Bob Ekblad at Tierra Nueva as an important mentor. Bob’s book is Reading the Bible with the Damned


The book Chris recommends for teaching Centering Prayer to men in prison is Finding God Within by Ray Leonardini


Chris’ book is Wanted: A Spiritual Pursuit Through Jail, Among Outlaws, and Across Borders


Chris refers to Michelle Alexander, author of The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness, and her call for a new Underground Railroad

Do you ever have a nagging sense – maybe when you hear Jesus tell the “Rich Young Ruler” to sell everything he has and give it to the poor, or when Jesus tells his disciples that it is harder for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God– that Jesus had a different message about wealth than much of what gets said in church: “Support the stewardship campaign!” “Give generously!” “We need to be prudent stewards of the endowment!”

Miguel Escobar, after many years working as a self-described “church bureaucrat” for Episcopal institutions in New York City, had such a nagging sense; so, he researched and wrote a book exploring his questions more deeply, The Unjust Steward: Wealth, Poverty, and the Church Today. The book looks at the evolution of Christian thinking about money over the course of its first 500 years through twenty-four “snapshots” of Christian theologians and saints from that time period.

I found Miguel to be an insightful and provocative conversation partner based on his intimate knowledge of very different worlds of faith and wealth. Growing up in small-town Texas, as the grandson of Catholic migrant farm workers, Miguel has a deep appreciation for how the announcement of Jesus’ arrival as the Son of God in the Gospel of Luke heralds good news for the poor. As Mary sings in the Magnificat, “[God] has brought down the powerful from their thrones and lifted up the lowly; he has filled the hungry with good things and sent the rich away empty.” In the world of his grandparents, Mary’s news about what God promised for the rich and for the poor was Good News. As an adult, Miguel has worked for the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church, the Episcopal Church Foundation, and for Episcopal Divinity School at Union. In these roles, he has worked with and for wealthy organizations and individuals. For them (and for me), Mary’s news is challenging news.

Miguel and I talked about the worlds and experiences that have shaped his thinking around Christianity and wealth; the history of the church “stewardship campaign” and its ethical complexity; his advice for wealthy churches like Trinity Wall Street (Trinity has over $6 billion in its real estate portfolio); the parable of the unjust steward as an alternative ethic for “promiscuous generosity” (a phrase Miguel credits to Louie Crew); how to work through feelings of hypocrisy and shame around being wealthy and Christian toward faithful action; and the threat of middle-class churches becoming “boutique version[s] of Christianity” that don’t include the poor.

Helpful Links


Here is a link to Miguel’s book, The Unjust Steward: Wealth, Poverty, and the Church Today.


Here is a New York Times story about Trinity Wall Street, The Church With the $6 Billion Portfolio


Miguel talks about the history of pew rentals, a common way that churches collected money prior to stewardship campaigns.


There is more here about the history of the “every member canvass” replacing pew rentals in the early 20th century.


Miguel references the theologian Reinhold Niebuhr’s critique of the stewardship model of Christian fundraising. Here is more about Reinhold Niebuhr. Miguel summarizes Niebuhr’s critique in the introduction of The Unjust Steward.

In the Gospel of Matthew, when Jesus’s followers express worry about having sufficient food, drink, and clothes, Jesus answers, “Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you” (6:33). What if you decided to wager your life on Jesus’ claim? What if you decided to live as if those words were just as true today? Where would God lead you? What would your days look like? How would you provide for your children?

Tensie Hernandez and Dennis Apel decided almost thirty years ago to wager their lives on those words of Jesus. They left Los Angeles with just $300 to their names, drove up the coast of California, and found themselves led to Guadalupe, a town of 8,000 people, mostly undocumented farm workers. “The Spirit just kept opening doors,” said Tensie. Those doors led to creating a Catholic Worker house of hospitality called Beatitude House, as well as a free medical clinic, a food distribution center, and a clothing distribution program. Doors also opened to parenting two children and decades of monthly non-violent resistance or “vigils” outside the gates of the nearby Vandenburg Air Force Base. That led to a four-month prison sentence for Dennis, and a supreme court case.

How did their call unfold? What have been the blessings and challenges of raising kids while living a life of voluntary poverty?1 Reflecting on nearly three decades in Guadalupe, what are they most proud of? What have they learned about drawing on the wisdom of Dorothy Day without making an idol of her or the Catholic Worker model? What is their advice for others feeling drawn to create similar communities?

I talked about these questions and more with Dennis and Tensie. Having made that wager thirty years ago, I was struck by Dennis and Tensie’s gratitude and sense of abundance. I hope your heart will be touched, too.



Helpful Links


If you want to support Tensie and Dennis’ work, you can write a check to “Beatitude House” and mail it to Beatitude House Catholic Worker, 267 Campodonico Ave, Guadalupe, CA 93434. If you want to receive their newsletter, drop me a note in the Substack comments with your email address (or through my website contact page) and I’ll pass along your info to them.


Read more about Dennis’ decades of nonviolent resistance at the Vandenburg Airforce Base and the ensuing Supreme Court case


Listen here to Tensie share more on the “Coffee With Catholic Workers” podcast about her call to be a Catholic Worker and the ministry at Beatitudes House


Listen here to “Worker Kids”, including Dennis and Tensie’s daughter Rozelle, share about their experiences growing up in Catholic Worker communities. You can hear parents reflect on raising kids in community in part two of the episode


In this podcast Dennis talks about the inspiration of Ched Myers’ writing. Here is a link to Ched’s books, articles, classes, and blog.

How do you respond when you feel called to center your life around an ancient rhythm of prayer, and care for the land? The obvious option is to become a Benedictine monk or nun. But what if you also feel called to marriage and raising children?

Seven years ago Lisa and Mark Kutolowski created Metanoia Vermont in Strafford, Vermont to live out these multiple calls. (In full disclosure, I am a friend of Mark and Lisa’s and a former board member of Metanoia). On a few dozen acres they welcome guests and interns, and seek themselves, to “live the Way of Christ through prayer, work, and study in relationship with the land.”1 This means raising livestock, growing a garden, tending a woodlot, caring for children, and, in between all that, praying six times a day (see their typical daily schedule).

What led them to create Metanoia? How are they up to something beyond, in Lisa’s words, “doing monasticism poorly with kids running around”? How have their young children enhanced the community’s prayer life? What have been the blessings and challenges of the ministry on their marriage? What are the “shadows” of Metanoia, the temptations and dangers of a life of prayer and work on a Vermont hill farm? How do they think about wealth and poverty and their choices around money? At the cost of inclusion, what have been the benefits of creating a community that is not interfaith, but specifically rooted in the Roman Catholic tradition? As they reflect during their sabbatical after the start up chapter of Metanoia, what are their hopes for the next chapter? I talked about these questions and more with Mark and Lisa this past week.

Helpful Links


Learn more about Metanoia, including how to visit, at the Metanoia Vermont website.


The Metanoia ministry relies on donations. You can donate here.


You can read Mark’s regular reflections from the homestead and ministry on Substack. His Ash Wednesday Post, “The Gift of Ashes”, reflects on the “task of living into something good, true, and beautiful in an age of upheaval, dislocation and loss.”


Lisa mentions the work of Sister Mary Margaret Funk as helping her think about money and possessions.


Mark and Lisa refer to the “Liturgy of the Hours”, the daily prayer of the church. Specifically they mention the services of “lauds” and “vespers”, morning and evening prayer respectively. Read more about this ancient rhythm of prayer here.

How do you grow in faith, hope and love and also confront
the suffering and injustice in the world? Fumi Tosu, longtime Catholic Worker and founder of one of the newest houses of hospitality, Dandelion House in
Portland, Oregon, has written about the “liturgy of hope” that he has found in the rhythm of the life of a Catholic Worker: “chop, cook, serve, then walk, pray, protest.”


Helpful Links


Dandelion House
The Aims and Means of the
Catholic Worker and the Catholic
Worker homepage with links to all 200 communities, and information about how to access Dorothy Day’s writing   
“A Time of Reckoning for (white) Christianity”, Fumi’s article following the January 6, 2021 insurrection
An article by Fumi about his arrest in Mass (and release) on the campus of Santa Clara University
An article by Fumi about starting Dandelion House
A trailer for the documentary on Dorothy Day, “Don’t Call Me a Saint,” and the website where you can download it
The Jesuit Volunteer Corps