Dr. John Vervaeke Upfire Digital LLC

Mahon McCann is a writer, award-winning playwright, philosophy doctoral researcher, martial arts coach, and podcast host who explores personal development and ethical issues of technology.  
Are we on the brink of a new era of enlightenment or facing the rise of an existential threat? In this episode, John Vervaeke and Mahon McCann delve into the intricate relationship between artificial intelligence and the human search for meaning. They explore the potential of AI to act as a tool for personal and collective transformation, but also examine the challenges of creating AI that truly understands and respects our values. From predictive processing and relevance realization to Plato's cave allegory, this episode offers a fascinating exploration of the intersection between AI and human consciousness.
 
Support John's groundbreaking work and gain exclusive access to live Q&A sessions, early video releases, and more by joining our Patreon community! 
 
—
"Attention is like a spotlight you shine on things. When you shine your attention on them, they stand out and keep your attention." - John Vervaeke  [00:02:12]
“So much of this first generation of AI is an environment, the large scale curation algorithms of social media are what's organizing our experience online. It's not a human being, but it's playing this role of orchestrating a lot of our experience and people's development. And so creating an optimal AI or an optimal environment would be trying to foster optimal agency, optimal meaning, which is really optimal wellbeing as well.” - Mahon McCann [00:38:23]
“I think part of steeling the culture is to get the people within the AI industry [to] drop the sorcerer myth. Drop it. Disidentify with it. Take up the sage mythology. Take that up. That is the way we can do what you want, but in a way that isn't going to set us on a path to destruction. - John Vervaeke [00:59:16]





—
 
0:00 Introduction to AI Alignment and the Meaning Crisis
1:00 Predictive Processing and Relevance Realization
2:00 Beyond the Spotlight Metaphor: New Models of Attention
6:30 Integrating Predictive Processing with Relevance Realization
23:00 Agency, Meaning, and the Self-Organizing Mind
29:20 Autopoiesis, Agency, and Plato's Insights
31:25 Predictive Processing, Motivation, Vertical Alignment, and Horizontal Anticipation 
35:05 Optimal Agency, Collective Intelligence, and Persuasive Technologies
37:40 AI as Agents vs. AI as Environment
39:45 The Challenge of Aligning AI with Human Flourishing
53:15 Creating a New Sacredness in the Digital Age
59:44 Concluding Thoughts on Navigating AI Development: Embracing Choice Points, Wisdom, and Foresight for a Collectively Beneficial Future
 
—
 
Join The Vervaeke Foundation in our mission to advance the scientifically rigorous pursuit of wisdom and make a meaningful impact in the world.
 
Discover practices that deepen your virtues and help you connect more deeply with reality and relationships by joining Awaken to Meaning today. 
 
—
 
Ideas, Authors, and Works Mentioned in this Episode
 
Predictive processing and relevance realization: exploring convergent solutions to the frame problem - Brett Andersen, Mark Miller, John Vervaeke 
Ken Lowry
D.C. Schindler
Jonathan Pageau
Mark Miller
Rick Repetti
Attention Is Cognitive Unison: An Essay in Philosophical Psychology - Christopher Mole 
Feature-integration theory of attention - Anne Treisman
Metaphors We Live By - George Lakoff and Mark Johnson
Attention Metaphors: How Metaphors Guide the Cognitive Psychology of Attention - Diego Fernandez-Duque, Mark Johnson
William James 
Andy Clark
Phenomenology of Perception  - Maurice Merleau-Ponty
Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience - Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi
Lev Vygotsky
The Republic - Plato
Theory of motivation
Mentoring the Machines - John Vervaeke and Shawn Coyne
Free-Energy Minimising Agents and Beneficial A.I.: Ambient Smart E

In the vast expanse of human thought, how do philosophy and spirituality intertwine to shape our understanding of the sacred? In this conversation, first released on Andrew Sweeny's channel, The Parallax, John Vervaeke, Andrew Sweeny, and Christopher Mastropietro examine the delicate balance between philosophical rigor and spiritual experiences. They probe the challenges and rewards of navigating this complex terrain, emphasizing the transformative power of love, wisdom, and existential inquiry. By blurring the traditional boundaries between philosophical inquiry and religious practice, this conversation invites listeners to deepen their exploration of truth and meaning, ultimately fostering personal and communal growth.
 
Andrew Sweeny is an educator, writer, musician, and podcaster who currently teaches at Sciences Po University in Paris and serves as an editor at Parallax magazine. 
Christopher Mastropietro is a philosophical writer who is fascinated by dialogue, symbols, and the concept of self. He actively contributes to the Vervaeke Foundation.
 
Support John's groundbreaking work and gain exclusive access to live Q&A sessions, early video releases, and more by joining our Patreon community! https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke
 
Authors, Ideas, and Works Mentioned in this Episode
 
Mere Christianity - C. S. Lewis
Nothingness Beyond God: An Introduction to the Philosophy of Nishida Kitaro, by Robert Edgar Carter 
Zombies in Western Culture: A Twenty-First Century Crisis,  co-authored by Christopher Mastropietro
Heidegger, Neoplatonism, and the History of Being, by James Filler
Iain McGilchrist
Daniel Schmachtenberger
Bishop Maximus
Paul Vander Klay
T.S. Eliot
Jordan Peterson
Sallie McFague
Richard Dawkins
Carl Jung
Søren Kierkegaard
Jacob Howland
Douglas Hedley
Jordan Hall
 
“The more people I'm talking to—high caliber, high quality people in this whole arena—the advent of the sacred as a response to the meaning crisis is a growing theme. I have found myself more and more called into service to doing whatever I can to afford the advent of that.” - John Vervaeke [00:02:00]
"Nobody lives on the Silk Road; people move along it." - John Vervaeke [00:03:37]
"The idea of the Silk Road, to me, is that the wandering, and the traveling, and the encountering different influences, and the metabolizing of a lingua philosophica helps to create a space within oneself into which that inward process can pour itself, discover itself, and metabolize itself." - Christopher Mastropietro [00:10:57]
“The more I engage with this work, the more I realize that so much of the dawning consciousness of our encounter with the sacred is ultimately a process that happens to us. It occurs to us. We can bring consciousness to bear on it, and augment it, and make space for it, and inquire within it in such a way as to invite it.” - Christopher Mastropietro [00:11:23]
 
0:00  Embracing the Philosophical Silk Road: From Top-Down Religion to an Organic Spiritual Path
17:00  On the Philosophical Silk Road: An Interfaith Journey, Personal Transformation, and Confronting Idolatry
28:30  Beyond the Culture War: Embracing Authentic Dialogue and the Embodiment of Beliefs
35:40  The Unresolvable Dialogue: Embracing the Infinite Game Between Socrates and Jesus
44:10  Rediscovering the Essence of Faith: Beyond Doctrine to Personal Transformation
56:00  The Wildness of the Sacred: Recognizing and Integrating Spontaneous Spiritual Experiences
1:02:50  Philosophical and Sacred Synergies: Bridging the Divide through Love and Wisdom
 
Join the Vervaeke Foundation in our mission to advance the scientifically rigorous pursuit of wisdom and make a meaningful impact in the world. https://vervaekefoundation.org/
 
Discover practices that deepen your virtues and help you connect more deeply with reality and relationships by joining Awaken to Meaning today. https://awakentomeaning.com/
 
Follow John

Evan Thompson is a philosopher and author, specializing in the integration of cognitive science, philosophy of mind, and Asian philosophical traditions. Based at the University of British Columbia, his work, including his recent book 'The Blind Spot', examines the intersections of consciousness, experience, and reality through a comprehensive interdisciplinary approach.
 
Can cognitive science, philosophy, and mysticism hold the keys to resolving our modern meaning crisis? 
 
Join John Vervaeke and Evan Thompson in a captivating exploration of how these disciplines converge to address this pressing issue. The conversation showcases Thompson's interdisciplinary approach, drawing from his work on 'The Blind Spot' and his extensive background in Asian philosophy and phenomenology. Gain fresh perspectives on the essence of lived experience, the power of relevance realization, and the nature of reality as the discussion unfolds. Prepare for an intellectual journey that promises to deepen our understanding of truth, goodness, and beauty and bridge the gaps between diverse intellectual traditions.



Support John's groundbreaking work and gain exclusive access to live Q&A sessions, early video releases, and more by joining our Patreon community! https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke
 
Immerse yourself in the groundbreaking insights of Evan Thompson's thought-provoking book, "The Blind Spot: Why Science Cannot Ignore Human Experience.”  https://www.amazon.com/Blind-Spot-Science-Cannot-Experience/dp/0262048809
 
—
 
“"The blind spot is the inability to see, or to recognize, or to acknowledge that lived experience is the source of science. And so if you undercut the source of science by occluding lived experience, you're actually damaging science." - Evan Thompson [00:19:34]
 
"The process of formalization of translating things into a formal system is always an ill-defined problem that requires relevance realization." - John Vervaeke [00:30:52]



—
 
00:00 Introduction to Evan Thompson and 'The Blind Spot'
01:05 Evan Thompson's Background and Philosophical Journey
02:10 Diving Into 'The Blind Spot': A Book on the Meaning Crisis
09:30 Exploring Core Ideas and Arguments of 'The Blind Spot'
18:15 Addressing the Meaning Crisis: Science, Experience, and Reality
18:55 Navigating Between Science Triumphalism and Denial
21:30 The Role of Experience in Understanding Reality
31:25 Challenging the Bifurcation of Nature and the 'View from Nowhere'
38:45 Sacredness, Reality, and the Meaning Crisis
40:30 Exploring the Sacred Beyond Science
41:55 Exploring the Depths of the Sacred and Ultimate Concern: Secular vs. Transcendental Perspectives
47:45 The Axial Revolution and Its Impact on Modern Consciousness
56:45 Challenges and Opportunities in Bridging Science and Mysticism
59:54 Philosophical Reflections on Truth, Beauty, and the Good
01:11:10 Concluding Thoughts and Future Dialogues
 
—
 
Join the Vervaeke Foundation in our mission to advance the scientifically rigorous pursuit of wisdom and make a meaningful impact in the world. https://vervaekefoundation.org/
 
Discover practices that deepen your virtues and help you connect more deeply with reality and relationships by joining Awaken to Meaning today. https://awakentomeaning.com/
 
—
 
Idea, Authors, and Works Mentioned in this Episode
 
The Blind Spot: Why Science Cannot Ignore Human Experience - book co-authored by Evan Thompson, Adam Frank, and Marcelo Gleiser
Waking, Dreaming, Being: Self and Consciousness in Neuroscience, Meditation, and Philosophy - book by Evan Thompson
Why I Am Not a Buddhist -  book by Evan Thompson
Contact with Reality - book by Esther Lightcap Meek
The Nothingness Beyond God - book by Robert Edgar Carter
Maurice Merleau-Ponty 
Edmund Husserl 
Martin Heidegger 
William James 
Galileo Galilei 
Nishida Kitaro 
Alfred North Whitehead
Nancy Cartwright 
René Descartes
Robert K

Elizabeth Oldfield is a writer, speaker, and advocate for intentional community living based in South London. Her work, including her book 'Fully Alive', explores the intersections of faith, culture, and ethics through a deeply personal lens. 
 
In a world that often trivializes love and deep connections, how can we cultivate a life of wisdom, virtue, and transcendence amidst our finite existence and growing polarization?
 
Join John Vervaeke and Elizabeth Oldfield in a profound dialogue that explores these critical themes of human existence, drawing from Platonic to Christian thought and emphasizing the transformative power of dialogical reasoning, cognitive flexibility, and awe. Elizabeth Oldfield shares insights from her book 'Fully Alive,' an Augustinian blend of autobiographical confession and psycho-spiritual reflection that highlights relational living and the transformative power of love. The conversation addresses the trivialization of love in modern culture and advocates for a deeper understanding while navigating the complexities of polarization in politics, the comparison between psychedelic and spiritual experiences, and the intrinsic value of community and wisdom traditions in achieving a virtuous life. Discover the necessity of grounding transformative experiences in communal practices for genuine personal and societal transformation in this thought-provoking discussion.



Support John's groundbreaking work and gain exclusive access to live Q&A sessions, early video releases, and more by joining our Patreon community! https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke
 
Discover a profound exploration of love, wisdom, and the human soul in Elizabeth Oldfield's upcoming book, "Fully Alive: Tending to the Soul in Turbulent Times." https://www.amazon.com/Fully-Alive-Tending-Turbulent-Times/dp/1587436507
 
—
 
“I can close my eyes now and know myself’s seen, and the deep knowing of the presence of love in my life and the way that every other moment of love, and encounter, and intimacy reflects that is the ground of my being.” - Elizabeth Oldfield [00:32:48]
 
"Wisdom is about this loving enhancement of our connectedness. The wise person can go into a complex, messy, ill-defined situation and home in on what's relevant, summoning their agency in the right way so that they are properly responsible." - John Vervaeke [00:31:04]



—
 
0:00 Introduction to Voices with Vervaeke: Elizabeth Oldfield'
1:30  Elizabeth Oldfield: Life, Faith, and the Quest for Existential Satisfaction
2:50 Exploring 'Fully Alive': Deep Dialogues on Belonging, Soul, and Existential Satisfaction
6:05 Plato's Insights on the Psyche, Inner Conflict, and the Pursuit of Inner Fullness
10:20 The Quest for Inner Peace, Wisdom, and Understanding Sin
14:20 The Interplay of Love, Wisdom, and the Divine in the Pursuit of Fully Aliveness
27:15 Unpacking the Realization of the Really Real: Connectedness, Love, and Presence
45:50 Identity, Cultural Scripts, and the Tension between Faith and Intellect
47:45 Expanding Our Understanding of Intelligence, Reality, and the Role of Attention
1:00:40 The Challenge of Authentic Love, Reverence, and Awe in a Trivialized World 
1:13:10 Reverence, Awe, and the Cultivation of Virtue on the Path to Wisdom
1:22:50 Concluding Reflections on Love, Wisdom, and the Pursuit of Fully Aliveness
 
—
 
Join the Vervaeke Foundation in our mission to advance the scientifically rigorous pursuit of wisdom and make a meaningful impact in the world. https://vervaekefoundation.org/
 
Discover practices that deepen your virtues and help you connect more deeply with reality and relationships by joining Awaken to Meaning today. https://awakentomeaning.com/
 
—
 
Authors, Ideas, and Works Mentioned in this Episode
 
Plato 
Freud 
Pascal 
Dialogos 
Kenosis 
Thumos 
Homo Inconvartis in Se 
Plato’s Dialogues
 
—
 
Follow John Vervaeke:
https://johnvervaeke.co

Kyle Koch is a facilitator at Evolve Move Play, where he integrates dialogical practices into natural settings to foster deep personal connections and psychological growth. 
 
Have you ever wondered about the impact of our environment on our cognition and ability to connect with others? In this episode of Voice with Vervaeke, John and Kyle explore the integration of dialogical practices within natural settings, the psychological and communal impacts of such practices, and the potential for deep listening to forge powerful, transformative experiences.
 
Support John's groundbreaking work and gain exclusive access to live Q&A sessions, early video releases, and more by joining our Patreon community! https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke
 
We invite you to sign up for Evolve Move Play's "Embedded Experience" weekend workshops with Kyle Koch. Register at https://www.evolvemoveplay.com/weekend-workshops
 
-
 
"Memory is about the future. It’s not about the past. Memories reconstruct and reconfigure in powerful, often unconscious ways to improve your ability to foresee in a relevant, realizing manner, the future." - John Vervaeke [25:13] 
 
"Rituals only matter to the degree to which they transfer broadly and deeply into many domains in your life and transfer broadly and deeply into many layers of your psyche." - John Vervaeke [57:27]
 
- 
 
0:00 Rekindling Connections: Dialogue and Nature
4:50 Environmental Impact on Cognition: Embodied Practices and Deep Listening
13:10 Evolutionary Impact of Campfires: Hypnosis, Shared Attention, and Ritual for Cognition and Connectedness
11:00 The Role of Deep Listening in Dialogical Practices
22:50 Ritual and Long-Term Change: Reconstructive Memory and Internalizing Wise Spirit
29:30 The Role of Place and Virtual Reality in Storytelling and Evolutionary Constraints
32:40 Navigating Virtual Technology: Maladaptations and the Importance of Wisdom in Epistemic Vulnerability  
41:00 The Evolution of Evolvability
50:00 The Power of Pilgrimage and Serious Play
59:30 Language and Expression of Transformation: Connectivity, Aliveness, and the We Space
1:06:40 Conclusion and Upcoming Opportunities for Embodied Experiences
 
-
 
Join the Vervaeke Foundation in our mission to advance the scientifically rigorous pursuit of wisdom and make a meaningful impact in the world. https://vervaekefoundation.org/
 
Discover practices that deepen your virtues and help you connect more deeply with reality and relationships by joining Awaken to Meaning today. https://awakentomeaning.com/
 
-
 
Follow John Vervaeke:
https://johnvervaeke.com/
https://twitter.com/vervaeke_john 
https://www.youtube.com/@johnvervaeke
https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke



Follow Kyle Koch:
https://www.instagram.com/trottingsparrow/
https://www.evolvemoveplay.com/
 
-
 
Thank you for watching!
 

In this episode of “Voices with Vervaeke,” John Vervaeke, alongside Terri Dentry and Aspasia Karageorge, delves into the complex interplay between emotions, chronic pain, and the mechanisms of healing within the framework of Intensive Short Term Dynamic Psychotherapy (ISTDP). Through a rich dialogue, the discussion unfolds to explore the intricate ways in which pain serves not only as a physical experience but as a profound emotional and psychological defense mechanism, obscuring underlying emotional disturbances and traumas. The conversation navigates through the socialization of pain, the pivotal role of emotional awareness in healing, and the transformative potential of ISTDP in restoring agency and empowerment to individuals. By bridging emotional and physical healing, this episode illuminates the holistic approach necessary for comprehensive therapy, emphasizing the integration of diverse therapeutic practices. The engaging discourse provides compelling insights into therapy's transformative power, underscoring the importance of understanding and integrating our emotional landscapes.
Bios and Links:
Terri Dentry is a distinguished PhD graduate in interprofessional practice, dedicated to bridging the gap between traditional medical practices and holistic wellness approaches. With a keen focus on patient empowerment and integrated health solutions, Terri advocates for a healthcare model that values dialogical reasoning and personal journey understanding, aiming to transform patient care into a collaborative, multidimensional experience. If you’d like to reach out to Terri to share your own personal story or thoughts, please feel free to email her at terri@thinkred.com.au.
 
Aspasia Karageorge, Psy.D., is a registered clinical psychologist with a Doctorate of Clinical Psychology and Master of Science from the University of Sydney, as well as a Master's degree in forensic psychology from the University of Otago in New Zealand. Discover more about Aspasia through her website, and stay updated on her work by following her on YouTube and on Instagram.



Embark on a journey with us to tackle the Meaning Crisis by joining our exclusive Patreon group: John Vervaeke | Responding to The Meaning Crisis with The Vervaeke Foundation.
Connect with John: Website | YouTube | Patreon | X 
Resources:
 
The Vervaeke Foundation
 
Awaken to Meaning
 
VOICECRAFT
Quotes: 
"ISTDP stands for Intensive Short Term Dynamic Psychotherapy, a therapy developed by Dr. Davanloo in the 60s. Essentially, it views chronic pain as a defense against emotional experience." - Aspasia Karageorge [00:06:00]
"Socialization of pain and how our narrative bias is driving a lot of this... the narrative bias coming from the early childhood experiences, and that providing the bias to what we are thinking, giving us a filter of how we are then relating to these things as we go forward in life." - Terri Dentry [00:38:04]
“Modeling goes deeper in the brain than propositions.” - John Vervaeke [00:59:20]
Glossary of Terms:
ISTDP: Intensive Short Term Dynamic Psychotherapy, a form of therapy focusing on emotional experience.
Chapters: 
00:00:00 - Introduction: Unpacking Emotions, Chronic Pain, and Rationality in Therapy
00:10:00 - Exploring the Socialization of Pain and Emotion's Role 
00:15:00 - ISTDP and the Emotional Landscape: Understanding Pain as Emotional Distraction
00:24:20 - Restoring Agency and Emotional Insight: Pathways to Healing in Psychotherapy
00:43:00 - Integrating Therapies: Towards a Holistic Approach to Emotional and Physical Healing
01:07:20 - Conclusion: Embracing Complexity: Transformative Insights from ISTDP Therapy