How to Smash the Motherhood Penalty Emma Mclean

As this is the final episode of the first season of “How to Smash the Motherhood Penalty”, I wanted to reflect on what I have learnt from taking the leap and making this series. And I also wanted to share what I would do if I had a magic wand. It is a question I have asked all my guests – if they had a magic wand that would make the biggest impact on smashing the motherhood penalty – what would it be? So, it is only fair that I also answer this question. Especially as I have been informed and educated on my answer after listening to all my expert guests in this season.
Thank you for supporting and listening to Season One – please let me know what you have thought about it and if you are keen for more! And what other motherhood penalty smashers I can interview? Who is doing this work that I need to amplify?

I was delighted to be interviewed in this final episode by my daughter Rose. Very appropriate given the purpose of my work is to smash the motherhood penalty so that our children and their children never have to experience it.

I share with Rose what I have learnt so far by making this podcast including:
- Seeing procrastination simply as fear showing up and how to move through it.
- The importance of listening to your whispers as do know what you need.
- The power of stories to help us feel seen.
- Why the phrase “I’m lucky” is one that I wish I did not hear as much as I do.
- My magic wand that will smash gendered caregiving norms. We are not there yet.
- How there can be a cloak of secrecy on what is really happening with work at home.
- Using the words “sotto voce” which I probably pronounce wrong!
- My favourite quote from Anna Funder’s book “Wifedom” which speaks to how complicated work at home gets completed.
- Leaning into hard conversations.
- The power of measuring what men are doing. This is the shift we need.
- Education and support for parents is overdue and needed.
Resources Discussed:
“Atomic Habits” by James Clear – as James says, “motivation often comes after starting”.
“Wifedom: Mrs Orwell’s Invisible Life” by Anna Funder

Connect with Emma
This podcast was funded by Works for Everyone, a business based in NZ and operating globally that supports working parents to stay in the leadership pipeline through coaching, workshops, and advocacy.
Your host, Emma Mclean, is a mother of three teenagers, an Executive Coach and the Founder of Works for Everyone. Following a successful 25-year career in corporate marketing, Emma launched her business in 2019 to put a care wrap around working parents at the hardest time in their career.
She is an Executive Coach, the recipient of the 2022 Jaguar/Viva She Sets the Pace Community
Grant, alumni of the 2021 NZ Leadership Programme, and a Swiftie (a lifelong Taylor Swift fan). 

To work with Emma or enquire about speaking – emma@worksforeveryone.co.nz
www.worksforeveryone.co.nz
https://www.instagram.com/worksforeveryone/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-mclean-9176217/

In this episode we talk with Michelle Russell, General Manager, Talent and Culture, for ANZ NZ and the Pacific. It was a special conversation recorded in the recent school holidays and a unique blend of Michelle’s story long with her observations of the workplace and what is needed to smash the motherhood penalty. She is a fierce supporter of parents continuing to grow their careers and to do it “their way”.
For Michelle, ANZ has been a wonderful place to grow her career over 16 years and become a parent. She has had two experiences of returning to work after parental which we discuss including her return during the global pandemic. Michelle’s insights around the levers that are going to smash the motherhood penalty are powerful and they include disrupting the home norms of caregiving and focusing on the little things at work to help parents feel seen.
Our conversation covers the above and much more:
- The real FOMO of stepping out of the business for 6 months when on parental leave.
- The common theme of having a partner at home or someone who supports your career.
- Being “welcomed back” to work versus “just slotting back in”.
- The importance of “while you away” meetings to help you feel seen. Being conscious of what has changed and letting them know. Little things can make us feel like a fish out of water.
- Generous paid parental leave can minimise the penalty – Kiwisaver and leave accruing.
- The power of a mentor (and conversations that Michelle has) to help you believe that youcan return to the same role – but you can do it differently. “Do it your way”.
- Relationship work allocation falls into a rhythm way before having children. This dynamic needs to change from the start.
- We don’t lean into the shift that needs to happen in relationships when it comes to caregiving.”
- The power of Dads thinking “What could log parental leave do for my career? Not what will I miss out on.
- The home norms are the game changer. Without these – policies will never be fully taken up.
- Have the challenging conversations at home and it will lead to challenging conversations at work.
Resources Discussed
“Untamed” by Glennon Doyle
Connect with Emma
This podcast was funded by Works for Everyone, a business based in NZ and operating globally that supports working parents to stay in the leadership pipeline through coaching, workshops, and advocacy.
Your host, Emma Mclean, is a mother of three teenagers, an Executive Coach and the Founder of Works for Everyone. Following a successful 25-year career in corporate marketing, Emma launched her business in 2019 to put a care wrap around working parents at the hardest time in their career.
She is an Executive Coach, the recipient of the 2022 Jaguar/Viva She Sets the Pace Community Grant, alumni of the 2021 NZ Leadership Programme, and a Swiftie (a lifelong Taylor Swift fan). 
To work with Emma or enquire about speaking – emma@worksforeveryone.co.nz
www.worksforeveryone.co.nz
https://www.instagram.com/worksforeveryone/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-mclean-9176217/

This week, our guest is Charlotte Ward, the Chief People Officer for Kiwibank. I reached out to Charlotte when I saw that they had created a part time role for one of their senior leaders when they returned from parental leave. Creating senior roles that can be completed in part time hours is one of the ways we will smash the motherhood penalty. This is how we can continue to build our careers instead of side stepping it. Charlotte very generously shares her story, shines a light on how her family works, and provides observations from her career on how we can re-imagine the workplace so that it works for everyone. 
It is a conversation that I feel lucky to have had and not only because we laughed a lot but because we discussed ideas that included:
The importance of conversations at home about how caregiving will happen in your family.How gender norms start early – even with how dances are taught in primary schools. “Workplaces are built for Don Drapers” and more goodness from Michelle King’s book “The Fix”.Whether our definitions of success need to be updated. The stories that women can tell ourselves that by themselves almost penalise us.Why we need to question the way the workplace works – and to put a focus on outcomes not time spent at a desk.Creating a culture where you feel like you can ask questions.Policies alone may not be effective – you need a culture that enables and normalises them.Recognising the challenges for managers and people leaders. They need support and need to be equipped to have good conversations. 
Resources Discussed
“The Fix” by Michelle Collins
Connect with Emma
This podcast was funded by Works for Everyone, a business based in NZ and operating globally that supports working parents to stay in the leadership pipeline through coaching, workshops, and advocacy.  
Your host, Emma Mclean, is a mother of three teenagers, an Executive Coach and the Founder of Works for Everyone. Following a successful 25-year career in corporate marketing, Emma launched her business in 2019 to put a care wrap around working parents at the hardest time in their career. She is an Executive Coach,  the recipient of the 2022 Jaguar/Viva She Sets the Pace Community Grant, alumni of the 2021 NZ Leadership Programme, and a Swiftie (a lifelong Taylor Swift fan). 
To work with Emma or enquire about speaking – emma@worksforeveryone.co.nz 
www.worksforeveryone.co.nz
https://www.instagram.com/worksforeveryone/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-mclean-9176217/

How good is it to spend time with someone who has found her sweet spot and loves her work. This person is indeed, Dellwyn Stuart. Dellwyn is a mother of three and the Chief Executive of the YWCA in Tamaki Makaurau, Auckland. She is in her happy place working with young women in Auckland. Alongside this she is also one of the co-founders of the Mind the Gap campaign (advocating for measuring and reporting on the pay gap in NZ) and created the Women’s Fund, driven from the insight that there was also a gender gap in terms of how much women focused community organisations get funded.  
Our conversation covers:
Describing what the pay gap (how it is different from equal pay) is and being able to talk about it. Measuring the pay gap helps businesses to work out where women might be thinning out. How your manager’s response to you being pregnant can penalise you right from the start. Taking the negative and flipping it to be positive.How we can still be trapped into thinking that Dads need to be the breadwinners but that the younger generation coming through wants it to be different.How we can look overseas to see the examples we can follow.How employers can start the system change by providing equal pay for parental leave for both parents. 
Resources Discussed
Mind the Gap
https://www.mindthegap.nz/
The Women’s Fund
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/the-auckland-foundation-works-to-establish-a-womens-fund/L6QMIGTF7SNJZ5FDALMTHXUY4I/
Connect with Emma
This podcast was funded by Works for Everyone, a business based in NZ and operating globally that supports working parents to stay in the leadership pipeline through coaching, workshops, and advocacy.  
Your host, Emma Mclean, is a mother of three teenagers, an Executive Coach and the Founder of Works for Everyone. Following a successful 25-year career in corporate marketing, Emma launched her business in 2019 to put a care wrap around working parents at the hardest time in their career. She is an ACC certified coach with the International Coaching Federation, the recipient of the 2022 Jaguar/Viva She Sets the Pace Community Grant, alumni of the 2021 NZ Leadership Programme, and a Swiftie (a lifelong Taylor Swift fan). 
To work with Emma or enquire about speaking – emma@worksforeveryone.co.nz 
www.worksforeveryone.co.nz
https://www.instagram.com/worksforeveryone/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-mclean-9176217/

This episode is one that I dared to dream about. Through my coaching with working parents, I have had a window on the world of families that others may not have. I have listened to my client’s stories about how they manage the daily operations of their families and the challenges they face. And I have concluded that what happens at home has a massive impact on what is possible at work.
So, I was delighted when Paul and Bec (and 7-week-old baby Aloïse) agreed to be guests on this week’s podcast.  It is a very special conversation where they both very generously talk about their experience of being working parents and how they think about returning to work after having a baby.  Having these kinds of conversations is courageous. And I want to acknowledge this. This stuff is not easy. It is hard and we can do hard things. Speaking of hard things – thank you Paul and Bec for doing this even though you were at peak sleep deprivation!
In the conversation we talk all things:
Acknowledging that being a mother is the hardest job in the world – it is 24/7. The power of your partner understanding the mental load and expanding their understanding of it. Getting curious. How Paul took the lead on things he could – eg: taking the lead at night so Bec could get more sleep. “Life is not a balance sheet” and why keeping score is not a good idea.Work at home is work and needs structure. We don’t need helpers at home, we need owners. Ideas for how partners can support even if they are not home. How the planning ahead is most of the heavy lifting – not the actual doing of the task. Renaming the mental load as strategic planning. Genius!Their experience of using the Fair Play cardsPerception of what each was doing was different. The value is sitting down and talking about it. Communication and why a whiteboard is a foundation of success when you return to work.Whether it is “noble” to take parental leave.What if we treated parental leave just like annual leave?
Resources Discussed 
Podcast Recommendation - The Imperfects.  
The podcast we discussed is refreshingly honest and courageous, it tells the story of how Penny and Hugh van Cuylenburg The Resilience Project have leant into this hard conversation of the mental load at home and in Hugh’s words ``been the best thing we have done for our relationship”. 
To listen to Hugh and Ryan’s reflections on what it has been like for them was impactful. Honest, at times brutally, and at the same time vulnerable when talking about trying new ways of doing things at home.  It provides a pathway and a way forward to a more equitable home life. Highly recommend it! 

https://open.spotify.com/episode/3CRrKK9Af0QmU4j4GTgW39?si=2eb2f909013840e5

Great for listening in the car.

Connect with Emma
This podcast was funded by Works for Everyone, a business based in NZ and operating globally that supports working parents to stay in the leadership pipeline through coaching, workshops, and advocacy.  
Your host, Emma Mclean, is a mother of three teenagers, an Executive Coach and the Founder of Works for Everyone. Following a successful 25-year career in corporate marketing, Emma launched her...

If you have ever wished for a role that has hours that suit the caregiving responsibilities you have, then this episode is for you. 
We interview mother, social entrepreneur and founder of Jobs for Mums, Mela Lush. Mela is on a mission to help parents get work that works for everyone. Jobs for Mums is a social enterprise that connects parents and caregivers with flexible work opportunities in New Zealand. With a deep commitment to driving a movement for family-friendly work aligned with the UN Sustainable Development Goals, Mela is determined to smash the motherhood penalty one job at a time. 
Our conversation covers:
A business born from the living room and out of the need for family friendly work. How the hidden workforce can solve $80 trillion global skills shortage.Why the Motherhood Penalty is the single biggest thing to hit your career. Part time work and how there can be perceptions that those who take this work on are somehow less committed. How it can be common to experience the thought of “I now have a job not a career”.Work systems and how jobs were architected were designed 100 years ago and they don’t work for any parent now – we need more innnovation.The importance of all parents lifting each other up. Re-thinking how you write job descriptions, whether roles could done with term time contracts, being open to flexibility, thinking about returnships (just like internships but for those that have had a career break) – a way to unlock hidden talent. Being an agitator for change by becoming curious with your employer and asking questions. 
Resources Discussed
Book Recommendation: “The Wife Drought” Annabel Crabb
To contact Mela and find out more about Jobs or Mums please use the links below: 
melalush@jobsformums.co.nz
www.jobsformums.co.nz 
https://www.instagram.com/jobs_for_mums_newzealand/
Connect with Emma
This podcast was funded by Works for Everyone, a business based in NZ and operating globally that supports working parents to stay in the leadership pipeline through coaching, workshops, and advocacy.  
Your host, Emma Mclean, is a mother of three teenagers, an Executive Coach and the Founder of Works for Everyone. Following a successful 25-year career in corporate marketing, Emma launched her business in 2019 to put a care wrap around working parents at the hardest time in their career. She is an ACC certified coach with the International Coaching Federation, the recipient of the 2022 Jaguar/Viva She Sets the Pace Community Grant, alumni of the 2021 NZ Leadership Programme, and a Swiftie (a lifelong Taylor Swift fan). 
To work with Emma or enquire about speaking – emma@worksforeveryone.co.nz 
www.worksforeveryone.co.nz
https://www.instagram.com/worksforeveryone/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-mclean-9176217/