Mountain & Prairie with Ed Roberson Ed Roberson

Dr. Alan Townsend is a scientist, author, and Dean of the Franke College of Forestry & Conservation at the University of Montana. His new book is titled “This Ordinary Stardust: A Scientist’s Path from Grief to Wonder,” and it’s an unbelievably powerful book. It’s the story of Alan’s family being rocked to the core by two unthinkable, back-to-back tragedies– his four-year-old daughter and wife both being diagnosed with brain tumors.
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Alan is a highly trained, Ph.D.-level scientist who spent his entire career using cold hard facts, emotionless inquiry, and academic rigor to try and solve some of the world’s most pressing problems. Yet when faced with a father/husband’s worst nightmare, he was forced to accept that science alone was simply not enough to make it through the gauntlet. I was blown away by Alan’s insightfulness and vulnerability and how he managed to constructively meld science and spirituality to make sense of an unimaginable catastrophe.
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Alan was born in Hawaii and grew up in Montana, where he spent much of his youth hunting, fishing, and exploring the West’s wide-open landscapes. His education and career in science allowed him to delve deeper into the natural world, giving him an even more intense respect and appreciation for the beautifully complex biological systems that make our world work. He’s worked in Amazonian forests and Costa Rican jungles, and he’s published more than 140 peer-reviewed articles. But, as you’ll hear in this conversation, Alan also embraces the more ethereal and unknown aspects of our existence, and he has a gift for discussing and writing about them in a very powerful and helpful manner.
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We met up at Alan’s office at the University of Montana, and had a very meaningful conversation about grief, curiosity, generosity, open-mindedness, focus, and family. We discussed Alan’s upbringing in Montana, his path to becoming such a highly trained scientist, and his process of re-evaluating the limits and usefulness of science in the face of tragedy. We talked a lot about his late wife Diana and her unbelievable toughness and his daughter Neva, who thankfully beat the tumor and is now a happy and healthy young lady. We discussed the compassion and skill of medical professionals, Alan’s years-long process of writing the book, and the indispensable role of his agent and editor. Alan also offers some wise, hard-earned wisdom for anyone who may be going through their own set of challenges.
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I loved this conversation, I loved the book, and I really appreciate Alan taking the time to talk with me. Be sure to click through the link in the notes to grab your own copy of "This Ordinary Stardust." Hope you enjoy.
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Dr. Alan Townsend “This Ordinary Stardust: A Scientist’s Path from Grief to Wonder” by Alan Townsend All episode notes and links: https://mountainandprairie.com/alan-townsend/ Leave a (5-Star!) review on Apple Podcasts ---
TOPICS DISCUSSED:
4:10 - An introduction to the power of Alan’s book
6:10 - The importance of focus in Alan’s book, and the strength of Alan’s wife and daughter
10:40 - Discussing Alan’s writing
13:40 - Alan’s birth and early childhood in Hawaii
15:30 - When science became a focus for Alan
17:00 - Alan’s reading choices
18:45 - When Alan found out his daughter Neva had a brain tumor
21:00 - How Alan got through this incredibly challenging period in his life
23:15 - The importance of routine for finding mental stability and peace in difficult times
25:15 - The power of curiosity in Alan and his wife, Diana’s, life after Diana was diagnosed with brain cancer
27:45 - The difference between people who are curious when it is easy to do so and those who remain curious when life becomes difficult
30:15 - Why Alan reevaluated his relationship with science, and how he challenges readers to do a similar reevaluation in his book
37:15 - Ho

If you’re a longtime Mountain & Prairie listener, then you’ll definitely remember Pete McBride. He’s a renowned photographer, filmmaker, and author, and he’s joined me on the podcast twice before– once to discuss his epic hike of the length of the Grand Canyon, and then to chat about his global search for silence in a very loud world. I’m glad to say that he’s back again, and this time, we’re chatting about his backyard river– the mighty Colorado– and the challenges, opportunities, and realities facing the people and wildlife that depend on it.
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Pete’s newest book is titled “The Colorado River: Chasing Water,” and it features Pete’s stunning photography and insightful essays, along with a foreword by Nick Paumgarten and an introduction by Kevin Fedarko. The book follows the Colorado River from its headwaters in the Rocky Mountains all the way down to the Colorado River Delta, where it peters out just before reaching the Gulf of California.
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I’ve read a lot of books about the Colorado River and water in the West, but “Chasing Water” opened my eyes to a number of very specific and sometimes-maddening challenges facing the Colorado River Basin. The book delves into issues such as the unchecked exportation of water-intensive alfalfa to foreign countries, how dust leads to increased evaporation and water loss, as well as more optimistic topics, such as how Las Vegas has become an imperfect-yet-inspiring case study in responsible water conservation. But at its core, the book demonstrates Pete’s deep love and respect for the Colorado River, and showcases his two decades of dedication to telling the story of this world-famous waterway.
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We met up at Pete’s house in Basalt, overlooking the Roaring Fork River, and talked about all things water and conservation. We started by talking about Pete’s father, and how his advice many years ago led Pete to shift his focus from global adventure photography to the Colorado River. We discussed the disconnect between people and their water sources, the challenge of using an over-appropriated water source to grow food for an entire country, Pete’s firsthand experience observing changes in the river and surrounding landscape, his work with Indigenous communities throughout the basin, and his preferences between photography, filmmaking, and writing. We also discuss some of his recent favorite books, and much, much more.
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Be sure to check out the episode notes for a full list of everything we discussed and links to all of Pete’s books.
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A big thanks to Pete for graciously letting me barge into his house and hassle him with questions yet again, and thank you for listening. 
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Pete McBride The Colorado River: Chasing Water by Pete McBride Seeing Silence: The Beauty of the World’s Quietest Places by Pete McBride The Grand Canyon: Between River and Rim by Pete McBride Into the Grand Canyon documentary Full episode notes & links: https://mountainandprairie.com/pete-mcbride-3/ ---
TOPICS DISCUSSED:
3:30 - All the places Pete has seen in the Colorado River watershed
6:30 - How Pete’s dad influenced Pete’s career 
11:30 - The immense changes to the Colorado River over the course of Pete’s father’s lifetime
13:00 - Reconciling how much of the West’s water comes from the Colorado, and how few people know it 
14:30 - Pete’s hope for his new book
18:00 - Pete’s style of writing for this visual book 
21:00 - Discussing how much Colorado River water goes to cattle and cattle feed, and the water challenges that face agriculture
29:00 - The impact of dust on Rocky Mountain snow, and how that impacts the Colorado River
34:30 - Highlighting an unexpected water conservation success story: Las Vegas, and how southwestern cities can start conserving their water. 
39:00 - How many times Colorado River water has been reused along its trek to Mexico, and discussing the

Peter Gower is the Nature Conservancy’s Climate and Renewable Energy Program Director for the Western United States and Canada Divisions, and Chris Menges is the Director of Climate Action for the Colorado Chapter of the Nature Conservancy. Both Peter and Chris are on the front lines of North America’s transition from fossil fuels to renewables, working to find solutions that protect and benefit working lands, natural landscapes, wildlife, and communities.
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As you’ll hear in this episode, the transition from fossil fuels to renewables is an incredibly complex process, and Peter and Chris are highly skilled at breaking down the issues and explaining them in a substantive yet easy-to-understand manner. While the details of their work may be complicated, everything Peter and Chris do is built on the very simple foundation of strong relationships, partnerships, and trust, which has been the common theme of all of these TNC-focused episodes.
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We connected virtually and had a great conversation about The Nature Conservancy’s work in the renewables space, exploring everything from TNC’s big-picture strategies in the American West, down to a few on-the-ground examples of successful initiatives and projects. We discussed how TNC is working with Western states to help them achieve their energy goals and some of the specific renewable work being done here in Colorado.
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We also talked about the challenges of finding sites for renewable energy projects, how market incentives can be used to ensure siting that benefits both people and nature, and recently passed legislation in Colorado that addresses these issues. We chatted about TNC’s extensive research in the renewables space, including its Power of Place studies. As usual, we discuss their favorite books and some resources to learn more about the issues surrounding renewable energy.
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Renewable energy has long been one of those topics that I have never been able to fully wrap my head around, but after this conversation, I felt that I had a solid foundation of knowledge– as well as the curiosity and desire to go out and learn more.
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A huge thanks to Peter and Chris for devoting the time to have this extremely educational conversation, and thank you for listening.
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Peter Gower Chris Menges TNC’s energy work Power of Place West Report Full episode notes and links: https://mountainandprairie.com/peter-chris/ ---
This episode is brought to you in partnership with the Colorado chapter of The Nature Conservancy and TNC chapters throughout the Western United States. Guided by science and grounded by decades of collaborative partnerships, The Nature Conservancy has a long-standing legacy of achieving lasting results to create a world where nature and people thrive.

On the last Tuesday of every month throughout 2024, Mountain & Prairie will be delving into conversations with a wide range of The Nature Conservancy’s leaders, partners, collaborators, and stakeholders, highlighting the myriad of conservation challenges, opportunities, and solutions here in the American West and beyond.

To learn more about The Nature Conservancy’s impactful work in the West and around the world, visit www.nature.org
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TOPICS DISCUSSED:
3:20 - The state of renewables in the West (Peter)
8:05 - Chris’s renewable work on the ground in CO with TNC (Chris)
12:35- Challenges and opportunities associated with finding physical sites for renewable projects (Chris)
15:50 - Examples of market incentives that Chris thinks would help develop renewable sites to the benefit of as many interests as possible (Chris and Peter) 
22:20 - Discussing the Power of Place studies (Peter)
26:35 - Other major challenges to implementing more renewable energy solutions (Peter)
33:05 - Discussing the Connected West study, to be released soon (Peter)
36:20 - Building relationships with businesses and large entities (Peter)
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Beatriz Soto is the Director of Protégete, a statewide program from Conservation Colorado, whose mission is to elevate Latino-driven solutions to protect our lands, water, air, and fight for environmental and climate justice. Prior to joining Conservation Colorado, she held a number of leadership and founding positions with conservation-focused organizations here in Colorado. At her core, Beatriz is a gifted and highly effective leader, one who combines her professional expertise with her unique personal story to act as a cultural bridge and give voices to both underrepresented communities and the threatened lands and waters of the West.
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Beatriz is originally from Chihuahua, Mexico, and she spent her childhood and youth in a bicultural setting between Mexico and the United States. She graduated from Colorado’s Basalt High School, and then went on to study architecture back in Chihuahua City, Mexico. For nearly 20 years, she applied her talents in architecture and design to a wide range of projects, from Net-Zero affordable housing projects to high-performance strawbale homes and everything in between, in locations ranging from the Pacific Coast of Mexico to Colorado’s Roaring Fork Valley. But as you’ll hear in the conversation, she eventually realized that she wanted to work more directly on issues including conservation and community vitality, so she pivoted and began her new career as a conservation leader in Colorado.
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Beatriz and I connected virtually and had an inspirational and instructive conversation about her amazing life story and her present-day conservation work. We talked about her bicultural upbringing between Mexico and the US, and the realities of growing up as an undocumented child. We discussed her family’s emphasis on service and community, and how those values have expressed themselves throughout her career. We talk about the uncertainty that accompanied her transition from a career in architecture to a career in conservation and advocacy, and why she decided to apply her talents to the mission of Conservation Colorado. We discuss the mind-boggling process of becoming an American citizen, how she builds trust with community stakeholders, her favorite books, and much more. Be sure to check out the episode notes for a full list of everything we covered.
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A huge thank you to Beatriz for taking the time to share her wisdom, and thank you for listening.
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Beatriz Soto Conservation Colorado Protégete ---
This episode is brought to you in partnership with the Mighty Arrow Family Foundation.
To whom much is given, much is expected. This value guides the philosophy behind the Mighty Arrow Family Foundation today.
Committed to its cause and infused with an entrepreneurial spirit, Mighty Arrow aims to invest in solutions that take action on climate change to build a more vibrant future, repair relationships from farm to market to table, heal our connection to the lands and waters we call home, and demand a more just and equitable society.
To learn more about Mighty Arrow’s forward-thinking, optimistic, and visionary work here in the American West and beyond, please visit www.mightyarrow.org.
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TOPICS DISCUSSED:
3:30 - Beatriz’s childhood
5:30- What brought Beatriz and her family from Mexico to the US
8:30 - Reflecting on adaptation within Beatriz’s very mobile childhood
11:30 - Whether or not looking back on the US from Mexico changed Beatriz’s outlook on the US
14:00 - Beatriz’s experience growing up undocumented, and how that affected her upbringing
17:45 - Where Beatriz’s commitment to service comes from
22:45 - The importance of community
24:15 - Beatriz’s goals in college
26:30 - Beatriz’s work in design and architecture
33:00 - Beatriz’s shift away from design and architecture, and the fear that comes with transitions like that
36:30 - How long it took Beatriz to feel like it was the right move to

This is a special episode recorded live in Bozeman at the premiere of the important new short film titled "Good Fire, Bad Fire: Inside the Race to Restore America’s Forests."
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On the evening of May 16, 2024, around 200 folks gathered at Bozeman’s Museum of the Rockies to watch the 15-minute film, which captures the breathtaking beauty of our nation’s forests and delves into the urgent crisis threatening their existence. Following the screening, I moderated a panel discussion featuring an extremely impressive line-up of some of the nation’s leading conservationists and forest-health experts. The on-stage conversation gave us the opportunity to dig deeper into some of the issues raised by the film, and glean valuable insights into the importance of responsible forest management from ecological, recreational, economic, and policy perspectives.
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“Good Fire, Bad Fire” was directed by filmmaker Eric Ian, and produced by the team at the Property and Environment Research Center, better known as PERC, who also hosted the event.  The panelists you’ll hear in this episode are:
 
Brian Ferebee, Chief Executive of Intergovernmental Relations for the U.S. Forest Service
Randy Newberg, renowned conservationist and Host of Fresh Tracks and Hunt Talk with Randy Newberg
Morgan Varner, Director of Fire Research at Tall Timbers
Corey Lewellen, District Ranger for the Bozeman Ranger District
Hannah Downey, Policy Director at PERC
Brian Yablonski, CEO of PERC (and a past Mountain & Prairie podcast guest)
 
I could’ve spoken with each of these experts individually for several hours, but having them all share a stage and combine their wide range of expertise into a single conversation was a powerfully educational experience.
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While you can listen to this episode on its own, I would strongly encourage you to first spend 15 minutes watching “Good Fire, Bad Fire” as a primer.  There’s a link in the episode notes and it’s embedded on the episode webpage.
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I’d also encourage you to check out the episode notes for a full list of all of the topics we discussed, which included everything from a history of fire as a resource management tool to the Forest Service’s evolving approach to wildfires and forest health. We talked about forest health’s impact on hunting and fishing, the pros and cons of policies such as the ESA and NEPA, on-the-ground success stories, optimistic good news about the future of forest health, and much more. There were tons of resources mentioned, all of which are listed and linked on this episode’s webpage.
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A huge thanks to Brian Yablonski and the team at PERC for creating such an important film and for inviting me to participate in such an enlightening conversation. I hope you enjoy the film as much as I did, and I hope that this discussion provides some new insights into the all-important issue of forest health in the American West.
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WATCH THE FILM: "Good Fire, Bad Fire" Full episode notes and links: https://mountainandprairie.com/good-fire-bad-fire/ ---
TOPICS DISCUSSED:
3:15 - Introductions 
6:15 - Where the USFS stands right now on its approach to wildfire and forest health (Brian F)
8:45 - A hunter and public lands advocate’s perspective on the state of the forests (Randy)
10:30 - A brief history of how fire became a resource management tool in the US and before the US (Morgan)
13:45 - Discussing obstacles to the forest management work described in Good Fire, Bad Fire (Corey)
18:00 - How we can streamline large federal processes like the ESA and NEPA (Hannah)
21:00 - Why PERC became involved in this forestry work (Brian Y)
23:15 - What is preventing ideal progress on forest management in Montana (Brian F)
27:30 - How Randy would recommend hunters and anglers take action and advocate for forest health
31:00 - Discussing how lessons in forest management from the Southeast can

This is a special Shed Session episode, normally published exclusively for Mountain & Prairie Patreon supporters. In it, I answer the most common question I receive, which is some variation of "How do I start a podcast?"
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In this episode I answer that question in excruciating detail, laying out everything I know about it, based on my own bumbling, meandering, eight-year journey through Podcastlandia.
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I hope this episode will provide a little bit of actionable guidance that will allow you to put your own unique ideas into the world.
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To listen to all past, present, and future Patreon-exclusive episodes, you can sign up at www.mountainandprairie.com/patreon. Memberships start at as little as $2 per month.
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Back to the regular episodes next week!!
 
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TOPICS DISCUSSED:
[2:15] - Intro
[6:55] - Disclaimers
[10:00] - How and why I started Mountain & Prairie
[22:13] - Intentions
[28:12] - Getting started + endurance
[39:25] - Finding your voice, authenticity, enthusiasm
[52:55] - Finding an audience
[1:03:09] - Interview techniques
[1:08:48] - Finding guests
[1:11:40] - Dealing with negative feedback
[1:15:14] - Equipment and editing
[1:21:38] - Money (least important!)
[1:25:54] - Further reading
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RESOURCES:
All Patreon-Exclusive Podcast Episodes Ed's 2024 Freeflow Course on the Rogue River Seth Godin Books: Purple Cow, Tribes, This is Marketing, The Practice Steven Pressfield Books: The War of Art, Nobody Wants to Read Your Sh!t Originals by Adam Grant 1000 True Fans by Kevin Kelly Conan interviewing Jack White Spreadsheet with all my podcast equipment