10 episodes

To Differ is Divine is a podcast that invites both the curious and the skeptical to explore the idea of spiritual permeability through conversations between our hosts, Bishop Sam Rodman, the bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of North Carolina, and Rabbi Raachel Jurovics, the Diocese's rabbi-in-residence. It is an invitation to devotional friendship between souls on different paths, including those who do not follow a particular religion. Our hosts will explore the texts and practices of their respective faith traditions as a conversation between different expressions of God. This exploration of spiritual permeability is a way to enrich one's own practice while contributing to a world without religious prejudice or fear.

To Differ is Divine Episcopal Diocese of North Carolina

    • Religion & Spirituality
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To Differ is Divine is a podcast that invites both the curious and the skeptical to explore the idea of spiritual permeability through conversations between our hosts, Bishop Sam Rodman, the bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of North Carolina, and Rabbi Raachel Jurovics, the Diocese's rabbi-in-residence. It is an invitation to devotional friendship between souls on different paths, including those who do not follow a particular religion. Our hosts will explore the texts and practices of their respective faith traditions as a conversation between different expressions of God. This exploration of spiritual permeability is a way to enrich one's own practice while contributing to a world without religious prejudice or fear.

    Lent, Part 4: Disruption - Rabbi Raachel Jurovics

    Lent, Part 4: Disruption - Rabbi Raachel Jurovics

    Intro
    In the fourth and final episode of our Lenten series, Rabbi Raachel and Bishop Sam discuss reconciliation, the final step in the cycle of sacrifice, repentance, and forgiveness. They consider examples from both Jewish and Christian scripture of reconciliation in a context with which we are all familiar: family drama. Through the stories of Dinah, Tamar, Joseph and the Prodigal Son, they examine what reconciliation looks like done well and done poorly--and how, either way, established relationships are disrupted, for better or worse. These disrupted family narratives form the basis for an understanding of broader social relationships that need reconciliation, whether between people of different religions, races, socioeconomic statuses or backgrounds.


    Notes
    We've aggregated helpful resources and additional information about the religious writings, practices, symbols and thinkers discussed in this episode.

    Dinah (Genesis 34:1-31)
    And Dinah the daughter of Leah, whom she had borne unto Jacob, went out to see the daughters of the land. And Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, the prince of the land, saw her; and he took her, and lay with her, and humbled her. And his soul did cleave unto Dinah the daughter of Jacob, and he loved the damsel, and spoke comfortingly unto the damsel. And Shechem spoke unto his father Hamor, saying: 'Get me this damsel to wife.' Now Jacob heard that he had defiled Dinah his daughter; and his sons were with his cattle in the field; and Jacob held his peace until they came. And Hamor the father of Shechem went out unto Jacob to speak with him. And the sons of Jacob came in from the field when they heard it; and the men were grieved, and they were very wroth, because he had wrought a vile deed in Israel in lying with Jacob's daughter; which thing ought not to be done. And Hamor spoke with them, saying 'The soul of my son Shechem longeth for your daughter. I pray you give her unto him to wife. And make ye marriages with us; give your daughters unto us, and take our daughters unto you. And ye shall dwell with us; and the land shall be before you; dwell and trade ye therein, and get you possessions therein.' And Shechem said unto her father and unto her brethren: 'Let me find favor in your eyes, and what ye shall say unto me I will give. Ask me never so much dowry and gift, and I will give according as ye shall say unto me; but give me the damsel to wife.' And the sons of Jacob answered Shechem and Hamor his father with guile, and spoke, because he had defiled Dinah their sister, said unto them: 'We cannot do this thing, to give our sister to one that is uncircumcised; for that were a reproach unto us. Only on this condition will we consent unto you: if ye will be as we are, that every male of you be circumcised; then will we give our daughters unto you, and we will take your daughters to us, and we will dwell with you, and we will become one people. But if ye will not hearken unto us, to be circumcised; then will we take our daughter, and we will be gone.' And their words pleased Hamor, and Shechem Hamor's son. And the young man deferred not to do the thing, because he had delight in Jacob's daughter. And he was honored above all the house of his father. And Hamor and Shechem his son came unto the gate of their city, and spoke with the men of their city, saying: 'These men are peaceable with us; therefore let them dwell in the land, and trade therein; for, behold, the land is large enough for them; let us take their daughters to us for wives, and let us give them our daughters. Only on this condition will the men consent unto us to dwell with us, to become one people, if every male among us be circumcised, as they are circumcised. Shall not their cattle and their substance and all their beasts be ours? only let us consent unto them, and they will dwell with us.' And unto Hamor and unto Shechem his son hearkened all that went out of the gate of his city; and every male was circumcised, all

    • 29 min
    Lent, Part 3: An Invitation to Grace - The Rt. Rev. Samuel Rodman

    Lent, Part 3: An Invitation to Grace - The Rt. Rev. Samuel Rodman

    In episode three of our Lenten series, Bishop Sam and Rabbi Raachel discuss the nature of forgiveness, both God's infinite, all-encompassing forgiveness and the much more fraught nature of forgiveness within human relationships. They consider the deeply relational nature of forgiveness and how our limited ability fully to understand another's heart-or to identify the true source of our own pain-makes forgiveness so difficult in human relationships. Throughout the conversation, they explore the ways in which even our limited ability to forgive reflects the grace of God's forgiveness, a gift freely offered to heal broken connections and deepen relationships. They don't, however, ignore the reality that, sometimes, a relationship cannot be mended, and we must put down the burden of, as Rabbi Raachel says, dragging somebody else's spiritual formation in our wake.


    Episode Notes
    We've aggregated helpful resources and additional information about the religious writings, practices, symbols and thinkers discussed in this episode.

    Henri Nouwen
    Henri Nouwen was a Catholic theologian from the Netherlands who focused on pastoral ministry, spirituality, social justice, and community.

    Leviticus 19:18
    "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the LORD."

    (JPS Tanakh, 1917)

    High Holy Days
    In Judaism, the High Holy Days are Rosh haShanah (the new year) and Yom Kippur (the day of atonement/at-one-ment).

    Maimonades' Laws of Repentance

    By indirections find directions out.
    Spoken by Polonius in Act II, Scene 1 of Hamlet.

    Spiritual Direction
    A relationship in which a trained guide listens with and accompanies an individual seeking a deeper connection with Divinity and a deeper understanding of their spiritual needs, gifts and yearnings. The primary question in the process always remains, where is God in this?

    Friends
    The Religious Society of Friends, or Quakers, are a group of Protestant denominations that believe in each individual's ability to experience God directly, thus generally eschewing creeds and hierarchical church leadership.

    Leviticus 18:5"You shall therefore keep My statutes, and Mine ordinances, which if a man do, he shall live by them: I am the LORD."

    (JPS Tanakh 1917)

    • 28 min
    Lent, Part 2: Repairing Relationships - Rabbi Raachel Jurovics

    Lent, Part 2: Repairing Relationships - Rabbi Raachel Jurovics

    This episode is part two of our four-part Lenten series, and today we discuss a familiar concept for anyone who engages in the liturgical season of Lent: repentance. Rabbi Raachel and Bishop Sam both understand repentance not as a requirement to relive shameful moments for the sake of being punished, but instead as a means of returning to right relationships with God and with each other through asking for and receiving forgiveness and taking steps to right the wrongs we have committed. Two examples from the early chapters of Genesis-Adam and Eve and Cain and Abel-provide a starting point for thinking about what it means to break the bonds of a relationship and how asking for forgiveness might change the paradigm.


    Notes
    We've aggregated helpful resources and additional information about the religious writings, practices, symbols and thinkers discussed in this episode.

    Elul
    In the Jewish solar-adjusted lunar calendar, the month of Elul precedes the High Holy Days in Tishri, Rosh haShanah (the new year) and Yom Kippur (the day of atonement/at-one-ment). Elul coincides with portions of the Gregorian calendar months of August and September.

    Rosh haShanah
    Observed on the first day of Tishri (the first month in the Jewish calendar, which usually falls in September and October), Rosh haShanah marks the Jewish New Year festival and begins the ten days of penitence culminating in Yom Kippur. It is one of two High Holy Days in the Jewish liturgical calendar. The 10 days of repentance and renewal that begin at sunset on Rosh haShanah and close with Yom Kippur are known as the Days of Awe. Outside of Israel, some Jews keep two days of Rosh haShanah, to be sure that their observance coincides with the New Moon in the Holy Land.

    Yom Kippur
    The "Day of Atonement" in Hebrew, Yom Kippur focuses on the opportunity for repentance, the paths of atonement, the promise of forgiveness and transformation.

    Yom Kippur Katan
    A "Minor Day of Atonement" in Hebrew, Yom Kippur Katan can be observed on the last day of each month in the Jewish liturgical calendar as a day of sel-examination and penance before the new month begins.

    T'shuvah
    The understanding of repentance in Judaism, t'shuvah is a Hebrew word rooted in the verb "to return," as in, returning to a path of righteousness, realigning with Divine guidance.

    Christian Confession
    While in some Christian denominations confession is considered a sacrament, in The Episcopal Church, the rite of Reconciliation of a Penitent-or private, individual confession-is instead a sacramental rite. It is not practiced in The Episcopal Church as often as it is in some other Christian denominations, but it is available to people year round and most popular during the penitential season of Lent and Holy Week leading up to Easter.

    God Walking with Adam and Eve in the Garden (Genesis 3:8-13)
    They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. But the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?" He said, "I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself." He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?" The man said, "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree, and I ate." Then the Lord God said to the woman, "What is this that you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent tricked me, and I ate."

    (New Revised Standard Version)

    The Way of Love
    In The Episcopal Church, the Way of Love is an intentional commitment to a set of practices for following Jesus: Turn, Learn, Pray, Worship, Bless, Go and Rest.

    Cain and Abel (Genesis 4:8-16)
    And Cain spoke unto Abel his brother. And it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

    And

    • 30 min
    Lent, Part 1: Sacrifice or Offering? - The Rt. Rev. Samuel Rodman

    Lent, Part 1: Sacrifice or Offering? - The Rt. Rev. Samuel Rodman

    Today we begin our four-part Lenten series with an exploration of sacrifice, or, as Rabbi Raachel teaches us, offerings, as the Hebrew of the Torah is more correctly translated. She and Bishop Sam dive deep into an exploration of sacrifice in the context of both Jewish rituals in the Temple and Christians observing Lent, discussing what it means to align our wills with God's. They wrestle with two of the most difficult stories of their respective traditions: Jesus' agony in the garden and ultimate crucifixion and Abraham's near-sacrifice of Isaac. Their conclusions may surprise you.


    Episode 7 Notes

    Lent/Holy Week/Easter
    Lent is the period of 40 days before Easter Sunday during which Christians traditionally enter a period of self-examination and penitence. This year, Ash Wednesday, the start of Lent, falls on February 22, and Easter Sunday falls on April 9. (For those doing the math, Sundays are not counted as part of Lent.) The Triduum, or three holy days leading up to Easter Sunday, include Maundy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday and commemorate Jesus' washing of his disciples' feet, the Last Supper, his imprisonment and trial, and his crucifixion and entombment.

    Jesus' 40 Days of Temptation (Matthew 4:1-11)
    Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. He fasted for forty days and forty nights, and afterwards he was famished. The tempter came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread." But he answered, "It is written,

    'One does not live by bread alone,
    but by every word that comes from the mouth of God."'

    Then the devil took him to the holy city and placed him on the pinnacle of the temple, saying to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down; for it is written,

    'He will command his angels concerning you',
    and 'On their hands they will bear you up,
    so that you will not dash your foot against a stone.'"

    Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

    Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor; and he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me." Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! for it is written,

    'Worship the Lord your God,
    and serve only him.'"

    Then the devil left him, and suddenly angels came and waited on him.

    (New Revised Standard Version)

    Korban
    Literally "drawing near," this Hebrew word has been translated as both sacrifice and offering.

    Priests and Levites
    Priest is a general term in the Tanakh (Hebrew Scripture) and in the Christian Bible to describe those set apart to worship God in a ritualized way in the Temple. Levites are descendents of Levi, Jacob's third son, who held a special right and obligation to the priesthood.

    Garden of Gethsemane (Mark 14:32-36, and elsewhere)
    They went to a place called Gethsemane; and he said to his disciples, "Sit here while I pray." He took with him Peter and James and John, and began to be distressed and agitated. And he said to them, "I am deeply grieved, even to death; remain here, and keep awake." And going a little farther, he threw himself on the ground and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. He said, "Abba, Father, for you all things are possible; remove this cup from me; yet, not what I want, but what you want."

    (New Revised Standard Version)

    The Synoptic Gospels
    Matthew, Mark, and Luke are called Synoptic Gospels because they can be "seen together" (syn-optic) and contain many of the same stories and sayings, often related in the same relative sequence.

    Jesus Sweated Drops of Blood (John 22:44)
    In his anguish he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down on the ground.

    (New Revised Standard Version)

    Song of Songs 8:6
    "Set me as a seal upon thy heart, as a seal upo

    • 37 min
    Episode 5: Speaking of the Psalms: Psalm 51 - The Rt. Rev. Samuel Rodman

    Episode 5: Speaking of the Psalms: Psalm 51 - The Rt. Rev. Samuel Rodman

    In this episode, Bishop Sam and Rabbi Raachel discuss one of the psalms that speaks most powerfully to Bishop Sam: Psalm 51. It is a plea for forgiveness attributed to King David after he is rebuked by the prophet Nathan for his role in another man's death. Our hosts dive deep on the ideas of repentance, forgiveness, sacrifice and reconciliation, with God and with each other. It is a theologically and spiritually enriching conversation.


    Episode 5 Notes
    We've aggregated helpful resources and additional information about the religious writings, practices, symbols and thinkers discussed in this episode.


    God's Compassion
    Rachamim, from the Hebrew root associated with womb, implying maternal love.


    T'shuvah
    The understanding of repentance in Judaism, t'shuvah is a Hebrew word rooted in the verb "to return," as in, returning to a path of righteousness, realigning with Divine guidance.


    You are the man. (2 Samuel 12:1-14)
    But the thing that David had done displeased the Lord, and the Lord sent Nathan to David. He came to him, and said to him, 'There were two men in a certain city, one rich and the other poor. The rich man had very many flocks and herds; but the poor man had nothing but one little ewe lamb, which he had bought. He brought it up, and it grew up with him and with his children; it used to eat of his meager fare, and drink from his cup, and lie in his bosom, and it was like a daughter to him. Now there came a traveler to the rich man, and he was loath to take one of his own flock or herd to prepare for the wayfarer who had come to him, but he took the poor man's lamb, and prepared that for the guest who had come to him.' Then David's anger was greatly kindled against the man. He said to Nathan, 'As the Lord lives, the man who has done this deserves to die; he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.'

    Nathan said to David, 'You are the man! Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: I anointed you king over Israel, and I rescued you from the hand of Saul; I gave you your master's house, and your master's wives into your bosom, and gave you the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added as much more. Why have you despised the word of the Lord, to do what is evil in his sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. Now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house, for you have despised me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife. Thus says the Lord: I will raise up trouble against you from within your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes, and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this very sun. For you did it secretly; but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.' David said to Nathan, 'I have sinned against the Lord.' Nathan said to David, 'Now the Lord has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die.'

    (New Revised Standard Version)


    Cain and Abel (Genesis 4:10)
    "And God said, What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood cries to me from the ground."


    Hosea 14:3
    "Take with you words, and turn to the Eternal; say to God: forgive all iniquity, and receive us graciously; so will we offer the words of our lips instead of calves."


    Morning Prayer
    The modern-language version of the service (known as Rite II) begins on page 75 of the The Book of Common Prayer, the main liturgical resource in The Episcopal Church.

    • 30 min
    Episode 6: Speaking of the Psalms: Psalm 145 - Rabbi Raachel Jurovics

    Episode 6: Speaking of the Psalms: Psalm 145 - Rabbi Raachel Jurovics

    In this episode, Rabbi Raachel and Bishop Sam return to the psalms and discuss Rabbi Raachel's choice: Psalm 145. Starting from the question of does God need to be praised, and, if so, why, they explore the ideas of humility, awe, abundance, praise, divine creativity throughout creation and our role in all of it.

    Episode 6 Notes
    We've aggregated helpful resources and additional information about the religious writings, practices, symbols and thinkers discussed in this episode.

    Theodicy
    Translated literally as "justifying God," theodicy is a philosophical or theological attempt to answer the question of why a benevolent God allows evil, thus vindicating God for allowing evil to exist. Thinkers across time, cultures and religions have come to different conclusions.


    Exodus
    Described in the eponymous second book of both the Torah (Judaism) and the Old Testament (Christianity), the Exodus is the story of the Israelites escaping enslavement in Egypt through Divine redemption. It is a foundational story in Judaism, recounted daily in prayer, because it underpins the covenantal relationship between the Jewish people and God.


    Perek Shirah
    This ancient Jewish text, written by an anonymous author, is composed of 85 sections, in each of which a different element of creation, beginning with the celestial and ending with dogs, uses biblical and rabbinic verses to sing God's praises.


    Presiding Bishop Michael Curry
    Presiding Bishop the Most Reverend Michael Curry is the leader of The Episcopal Church, the branch of the global Anglican Communion located primarily in the United States and Central America. He is a renowned preacher and Bishop Sam Rodman's predecessor as bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of North Carolina.


    Holiness Code
    You shall be holy, for I the Eternal your God am Holy.

    (Leviticus 19:2, Tanakh, tr. R. Jurovics)


    Midrash
    A rabbinical mode of interpreting Tanakh (Hebrew Scripture).

    • 25 min

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