65 episodes

The podcast where better is definitely better than bigger.
Do you think growing infinitely on a finite planet is an oxymoron? If the answer is yes, then this podcast is for you.
In each episode of the Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP), host Michael Bayliss talks to experts to unpack the notion of post-growth societies and what this means for us, for future generations and for the planet.
Each episode will also play an environmental themed song from local artists.
PGAP is made possible by the support of Sustainable Population Australia (SPA).

Post-Growth Australia Podcast Michael Bayliss

    • Society & Culture
    • 4.9 • 15 Ratings

The podcast where better is definitely better than bigger.
Do you think growing infinitely on a finite planet is an oxymoron? If the answer is yes, then this podcast is for you.
In each episode of the Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP), host Michael Bayliss talks to experts to unpack the notion of post-growth societies and what this means for us, for future generations and for the planet.
Each episode will also play an environmental themed song from local artists.
PGAP is made possible by the support of Sustainable Population Australia (SPA).

    Season Finale: Going deep into Deep Ecology with John Seed

    Season Finale: Going deep into Deep Ecology with John Seed

    For the final episode of season 5, PGAP welcomes special guest John Seed (OAM). John is founder and director of Australia’s Rainforest Information Centre and is an Australian figurehead for the Deep Ecology Movement. A long time hero of both co-hosts Mark and Michael, John combines decades of successful environmental activism with an emphasis toward re-establishing a deep emotional connection with the natural world. It is the disconnection from nature which has resulted in the endless growth paradigm which is tearing apart our societies and our planet. John shares his thoughts on why system change is not enough and why a fundamental shift in our collective psychology is needed to get us out of this mess.





    In addition to John’s other accolades, he is also an accomplished musician. It was a pleasure to play his song ‘The World Bank Song’ on PGAP. The song was written in 1990 for a protest against the World Bank in Washington DC and the message is arguably even more relevant today. The video may be seen on YouTube and John’s music may also be heard on SoundCloud.


    You can find more about the RAINFOREST INFORMATION CENTRE HERE. Or about DEEP ECOLOGY HERE. More links to John’s work include articles on THE RELIGION OF ECONOMICS, THE RIGHTS OF NATURE, and CLIMATE GRIEF. More information regarding the Atlas network may be read HERE and HERE.


    You can find out more about HOLISTIC ACTIVISM HERE (founded by co-host Mark Allen). Both Mark and Michael Bayliss have been busy over the last couple of months. Mark has written A Holistic Activism Approach to the Population Issue for Medium. Michael was recently a guest presenter on the Rethinking Sustainability Podcast, on the topic of Growth and the Parasitic Economy.. Mark has written for Independent Australia: Sydney asbestos crisis the tip of the iceberg . EcoVoice published Mark's article Climate Activism and the Crisis of Language . Last but not least, the PGAP Blog has been updated with a new post, Building a house in the 2020s (and other fun things!).


    At PGAP, we like to give a shout out to the work of our past guests. The highly anticipated De Gruyter Degrowth Handbook has finally been released! Inside, contributors, including a forward by Jason Hickel, explore various facets of degrowth, delving into its intersections with Marxism, feminism, architecture, and issues related to the global south. A standout chapter, penned by our former podcast guest Alex Baumann and co-author Samuel Alexander, shines a light on the initial privatisation of capitalism, namely land privatisation. While the Handbook itself is behind a paywall, an excellent article in The Conversation gives a great overview.


    PGAP will be on break for two months before we return for season six in a couple of months. PGAP has now been on the air for nearly four years and we are so pleased that community support for our grassroots program has gone from strength to strength across the five seasons. We are looking forward to many more stellar guests in season six and we will also be experimenting with 'mini-episodes' for returning guests.


    Until then, we invite you to RATE AND REVIEW PGAP, SUBSCRIBE, or CONTACT US with our easy to fill out contact form. Please share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks.


    Until season six, until then!


    (All views, opinions, and past and present legacies of PGAP guests do not necessarily reflect those of PGAP of Sustainable Population Australia who are the kind supporters of this podcast.)
    Special Guest: John Seed.

    • 59 min
    BONUS EPISODE: Sustainable Population Australia says NO to a Big Australia

    BONUS EPISODE: Sustainable Population Australia says NO to a Big Australia

    For this short bonus episode of PGAP, we welcome back Martin Tye, Social Media and Promotions Coordinator of Sustainable Population Australia (SPA). Martin shares with us the details of SPA's new campaign 'Say NO to a Big Australia!' He also gives us a heads up on SPA's public forum, being held in Adelaide on April 20th, "From housing crisis to eco-crisis: Why Australia's Population Growth is Unsustainable," including keynote speakers Leith van Onselen and Dr Jane O'Sullivan.





    Please consider signing SPA's position statement, calling for a sustainable population. Find out more about the campaign here.


    Will you be in Adelaide on the 20th of April? Then do come along to SPA's free public forum on Australia's Ponzi population experiment - and what we can do about it. For those not in Adelaide, the event will be live streamed. PGAP has interviewed both keynote speakers, including Leith van Onselen from Macrobusiness, and Jane O'Sullivan, in past episodes. Martin Tye was also interviewed in the very first episode of PGAP. Listen here for a walk down history lane!





    SPA are the primary supporters of Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP). While this podcast aims to invite broad perspectives on the Degrowth movement, we believe that a stable or slowly declining populations, both domestically and globally, are crucial components of the post-growth transition. If you want to find out more about where your co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen sit on population, you can read more HERE and HERE. All opinions, views and past and current legacies of our guests are strictly their own, and do not always reflect the views of PGAP.


    PGAP have one last episode in the wings with a VERY special guest (no spoilers!) before we take a short break. Stay tuned! In the meantime, please share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. Subscribe to PGAP HERE or contact us with your thoughts and ideas HERE.
    Special Guest: Martin Tye.

    • 11 min
    Finding The Money with Maren Poitras

    Finding The Money with Maren Poitras

    As this episode goes to air, a brand-new documentary on Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) is touring Australia and PGAP has been given the incredible opportunity to speak to USA based director of "Finding the Money", Maren Poitras. Maren has just embarked on a screening tour of South East Australia alongside Stephanie Kelton, who is a leading proponent of the MMT movement and author of ‘The Deficit Myth’.



    (Australian Poster)


    During this revealing interview, Maren discusses the importance of MMT and the journey that making a feature length documentary on this important topic has taken her on. The conversation also explores why it is crucial that MMT goes hand in hand with post growth narratives and why it is important to combine the two in order to create an economic system that works within limits to growth.



    (Maren Poitras)


    ‘Finding The Money’ was filmed and produced in the USA with a focus around Stephanie Kelton’s advocacy in that country. However, Australia is the first country in the world to host screenings in advance of the documentary’s official release in the USA later this year. This is testament to the growing popularity of MMT in Australia and its many homegrown advocates of economic reform. These include institutions such as Modern Money Lab and Economic Reform Australia as well as author Steve Williams - all have been previous guests on PGAP.





    You can find the dates of the Australian screening tour below and if you are in the right place at the right time, we strongly encourage that you go and see it. Not only is it a brilliant documentary but you will also have the opportunity to meet and greet Stephanie Kelton and Maren Poitras. CLICK HERE to book your tickets.





    Post-Growth Australia Podcast is made with the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia. We refer to SPA’s discussion paper in this interview: "Silver Tsunami or Silver Lining: Why We Should Not Fear an Ageing Population". Any views, opinions or legacy of our guests do not necessarily reflect those of PGAP or SPA.


    Your PGAP co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen are very pleased and humbled by the excellent response to the podcasts that we have made so far this year. We have had more listens than ever before, so a big thank you to our ever-growing community! We truly believe that "Finding the Money" and the conversations in this episode are very important and worth supporting, so we would be very grateful if you could share this episode within your networks. Also, please feel free to contact us at any time with your feedback and thoughts.


    You can find out more about your hosts here and here.
    Special Guest: Maren Poitras.

    • 49 min
    Debunking Green Growth with Timothée Parrique

    Debunking Green Growth with Timothée Parrique

    For this episode of Post-Growth Australia Podcast, we go international by welcoming our esteemed guest Timothée Parrique, who is based in France and Sweden. Timothée is an economist at the School of Economics and Management of Lund University (Sweden). He has built a steady reputation as a colourful writer and speaker on the fallacies of our growth-based economy and is a loud and proud advocate of Degrowth, Post-Growth and Steady State based solutions.





    Topics discussed with Timothée in this episode include:



    Reflections on the Degrowth movement within Europe, with particular focus on the 2023 Beyond Growth conference held at the EU parliament.

    Why “green growth” and economic decoupling are fallacies that are not backed by scientific evidence.

    Why demography is not an economic problem and why tinkering with demography won’t provide economic solutions.

    Timothée’s personal vision for a post-growth world (involving much more social equity and much less advertising).



    We think you will agree that Timothée is a fantastic speaker on these issues, whose colourful use of metaphor and imagery makes for an engaging conversation.


    We encourage you to read his article: “A response to The Economist: Shut up and let me grow”. This was an assertive response The Economist who wrote a critique of the 2023 Beyond Growth Conference, titled “Meet the lefty Europeans who want to deliberately shrink the economy.” Indeed.


    There are many great YouTube videos highlighting Timothée’s impressive public speaking legacy. This Tedx Talk (which has attracted nearly 130 000 views) is in French, but if you don’t speak the language, you have the option of English subtitles. We also recommend his talk at the Beyond Growth conference: “How to finance welfare without growth?” He has also been interviewed on the Steady Stater Podcast. Otherwise, check out Timothée Parrique’s website here.


    PGAP has been delighted and humbled by the fantastic listener support that we received for our last episode with First Nations cultural educator Larry Blight. Thank you to everyone who took the time share your kind words with us. In keeping with Degrowth values, PGAP does not use advertising and so depends on a supportive and generous community to get the word out. Please help us spread the good word by sharing this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. We encourage you to review and rate PGAP on Apple Podcast or your favourite platform. You are welcome to contact us anytime with your thoughts, feedback and suggestions.


    All views and perspectives of PGAP guests, including all past or present legacies, remain independent of the perspectives and legacies of PGAP and Sustainable Population Australia, who support this podcast. For a more in-depth look into some of the issues around discussing population, which were touched on during the outro of this episode, please read our blog post: “To populate or not to populate? How we can come together around the eternal debate of everyone’s favourite vexed issue.”


    Until next time, until then!
    Special Guest: Timothée Parrique.

    • 58 min
    Conversation with Noongar Menang Educator and Storyteller Larry Blight

    Conversation with Noongar Menang Educator and Storyteller Larry Blight

    Happy new 2024! For this very special episode of Post-Growth Australia Podcast, we interview Menang Noongar educator Larry Blight on site at the Yakamia forest, one of the few remnant pieces of bushland in Albany, which is currently under threat from overdevelopment (of course!) Larry discusses the environmental and cultural significance of the Yakamia forest. We then delve into a broader conversation across many issues such as overdevelopment, colonisation, the perils of neoliberalism and population policy. Larry incorporates his local knowledge and his connection to Boodja (Land) in what is a very deep and insightful conversation.





    From the Kirrah Mia website: “Larry is a Menang Man, who is passionate about his Boodja (Land) and all things on it. Larry has extensive knowledge of local bushfoods, medicines, fauna, local stories and traditions. Larry has been passing on this knowledge through cross-cultural awareness workshops, Aboriginal tourism, school educational workshops and more.”


    This episode was recorded on site at the Yakamia forest with our trusty portable recorder. Being immersed within the bushland allowed for a more immersive conversation to unfold. However, it also happened to be a windy day with quite a bit of ambient sound, affecting the quality of the recording. We did our best to throw all the production tricks to sharpen the recording, and we would like to thank Andrew Skeoch and Crystal Marketing for their additional assistance. As with our previous episode at the NENA conference, there is always a trade off with the intimacy of being 'live' with the unpredictable nature of sound recording, so we acknowledge the ‘rawness’ of this episode.


    To find out more about the Yakamia forest, you may be interested in our Season Four episode “A Tribute to Community Groups fighting Big Overdevelopment in WA” where we interview Annabel Paully from the Friends of Yakamia. For more First Nations’ perspective on Degrowth, you may be interested in Dr Mary Graham’s address in the episode, “PGAP live at the NENA conference: Life After Capitalism.” We also interviewed Prof. Anne Poelina in the Season Two episode: “Saving the Martuwarra-Fitzroy river”.


    This episode was recorded on traditional Menang Noongar country, on lands that were never ceded and we would like to offer our respect to elders past, present and emerging.


    We strongly encourage you to share this very important episode with your friends, family and networks and would love it if you could take the time to rate and review us on Apple Podcast or your favourite podcast platform. Degrowth is about community and we encourage a community approach to the direction of future PGAP episodes! Contact us anytime with your feedback, suggestions and ideas.


    PGAP is made possible by the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia. SPA has been active in including many diverse perspectives on the sometimes-contentious issue of population, including those from the Global South, as well as first generation migrant and First Nation's perspectives. More information can be found on SPA's 'diversity and social inclusion' page. If you would like to support SPA in saying 'NO to a big Australia' in 2024, please consider adding your signature to their position statement.


    More information about your co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen can be viewed here and here.
    Special Guest: Larry Blight.

    • 49 min
    PGAP live at the NENA conference: Life After Capitalism

    PGAP live at the NENA conference: Life After Capitalism

    PGAP recently had the pleasure of travelling to Canberra to record live at the 2023 New Economy Network Australia (NENA) conference: ‘Life after Capitalism’. We recorded a collage of presentions and interviews with conferences attendees into order to showcase nearly two hours of Post-Growth goodness. This episode includes well-known names such as Tom Ballard, Donnie MacLurcan, Anitra Nelson and Gareth Hughes.



    (graphic courtesy of NENA)


    PGAP acknowledges the Ngunnawal, First Custodians of the country where the recordings of this conference took place. We pay respect to Elders past, present and emerging, and acknowledge that colonisation continues in the form of growth- based capitalism that privatises, pillages and pours concrete over lands that were never ceded. This is one aspect of an ongoing colonial mindset that pre-dates growth based capitalism.


    PGAP will never be corporatised, so it relies upon word of mouth to spread the post-growth message. So please, if you get the opportunity, share this and other episodes within your networks. You can rate and review us on Apple Podcast or on your favourite podcast platform. You can also Contact us with your feedback, thoughts, questions as well as ideas for future guests or episode topics. If you choose to subscribe, that helps us a lot and it means that we can better keep you in the loop.



    (PGAP making a presence at the NENA conference)


    This is an absolute epic of an episode! It was recorded live across meeting rooms, hallways, scout halls and outdoors, so the quality of the recordings are variable. We would like to thank Andrew Skeoch for his additional editing support for this episode.



    Attendees at the NENA conference. What a fantastic, game changing group of future leaders, thinkers and healers. Photo courtesy of Rod Taylor


    We present to you our esteemed presenters and interviewees, in order of appearance (with time stamp):


    Uncle Wally: ‘Welcome to Country’ ( 00:04:52 to 00: 13: 35)


    Dr Mary Graham, UQ and Kombu-merri person: ‘Indigenous perspectives and “Relationist Economics” (00: 13: 36 to 00: 25: 59)


    Tim Hollo, Executive Director of The Green Institute, ‘What’s wrong with capitalism anyway?’ (00: 27: 24 to 00: 34: 11)


    Gareth Hughes, Wellbeing Economy Alliance NZ: ‘Will “wellbeing economies” save us?’ (00: 34: 27 to 00: 42: 25)
    (For more on wellbeing economics, you may be interested in PGAP’s interview with Katherine Trebeck, who also spoke at the NENA conference)


    Janet Salisbury, Women’s Climate Congress: Interview (00: 42: 41 to 00: 50: 51)


    Donnie MacLurcan, Post-Growth Institute: “What might a degrowth and post-growth future look like?” ( 00: 52: 02 to 00: 57: 28)
    (PGI’s Robert Wanalo was interviewed by PGAP in season 1)


    Anitra Nelson, Author of ‘Exploring Degrowth’: “What could our lives look like after capitalism?” ( 00: 57: 44 to 01: 02: 23)
    (Anitra was a past guest on PGAP which can be listened to here)


    Anthony Gleeson, ‘The Sustainable Hour’ radio program: Interview ( 01: 02: 24 to 01: 08: 38)


    Tom Ballard, Comedian and author of ‘I Millennial’: Conference Dinner Speaker ( 01: 10: 58 to 01: 32: 34)


    Andrew Skeoch, nature sound recordist at 'Listening Earth': Interview followed by session “Deep listening to nature reveals how life cooperates, rather than competes” (01: 34: 15 to end).


    PGAP would like to give a huge Huzzah to conference and NENA convenor Dr Michelle Maloney. She is so wonderful that she has been interviewed TWICE on PGAP for her work with NENA and AELA. Listen HERE and HERE. Do consider getting involved with NENA, and be part of the grassroots groundswell for systemic change.


    All opinions recorded at the conference, including any past or future work or legacies of speakers and interviewees, are exclusively theirs and do not always reflect the views of position of PGAP or SPA, who support this podcast.

    • 1 hr 55 min

Customer Reviews

4.9 out of 5
15 Ratings

15 Ratings

Tommy_W ,

Outstanding & life-changing!

THESE are the topics that everyone should be talking about! With unfailing sharp wit and a most pleasant voice, Michael takes a deep dive into the most controversial topics of our time, reminding all of us what really matters for humanity and the planet. A must-hear for everyone who cares about the future.

djames55 ,

Eye opening and informative

Important fringe ideas. Hard topics to discuss in the modern world. But glad this podcast is getting the message and ideas out there, thank you

Cblue19 ,

Opened minded PGA & relaxing/chill

This podcast has opened my mind on Post Growth, it interests me in some way & the way we live. I found this one Easy listening, the interviews & music has inspired me, I listen to it when I take public transport in perth & I find it very Gentle. it helps my brain to think about what’s around me like (transport/eco) so I can distract myself from the COVID-19. It’s the kind of podcast I would listen to with my cup of coffee. It’s one of my favourite podcasts so far. Keep up the good work Mike.

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