33 episodes

The podcast where better is definitely better than bigger.
Do you think growing infinitely on a finite planet is an oxymoron? If the answer is yes, then this podcast is for you.
In each episode of the Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP), host Michael Bayliss talks to experts to unpack the notion of post-growth societies and what this means for us, for future generations and for the planet.
Each episode will also play an environmental themed song from local artists.
PGAP is made possible by the support of Sustainable Population Australia (SPA).

Post-Growth Australia Podcast Michael Bayliss

    • Society & Culture
    • 4.9 • 12 Ratings

The podcast where better is definitely better than bigger.
Do you think growing infinitely on a finite planet is an oxymoron? If the answer is yes, then this podcast is for you.
In each episode of the Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP), host Michael Bayliss talks to experts to unpack the notion of post-growth societies and what this means for us, for future generations and for the planet.
Each episode will also play an environmental themed song from local artists.
PGAP is made possible by the support of Sustainable Population Australia (SPA).

    The Politics of Permaculture with Terry Leahy

    The Politics of Permaculture with Terry Leahy

    Permaculture is a popular topic on PGAP. Many who practice permaculture tend to also resonate with post-growth ideas. But for those in the post-growth movement who don’t like to garden, are there still things we can learn from permaculture? Can permaculture principles be applied to the wider economic, political and social change movements, or should permaculture keep itself to the garden bed? A new book, ‘The Politics of Permaculture’ endeavours to unpack the theory and practice of this popular and broad social movement. Author Terry Leahy collated many interviews and points of view from permaculture practitioners across the world, from Australia to Zimbabwe and everywhere in-between, to capture the many perspectives of how permaculture is understood. He shares this and more with PGAP, including his own vision for a future gift economy.

    Having crossed paths with Terry Leahy through several community, gardening and permaculture initiatives in Melbourne, it was fantastic to reconnect with Terry again and dig in deep (literally and figuratively) over this very fascinating and thought provoking book.

    Support Post-Growth Australia Podcast. Subscribe to us through this link . Contact us on the contact form here. Rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast here. PGAP exists free of corporate sponsorship and advertising, so we rely exclusively on word of mouth to sow the seeds of the podcast that explores the most critical issues facing the planet.

    Would you like your very own copy of 'The Politics of Permaculture?' You can acquire it through Pluto Press here

    The song of choice from this episode is the very topical 'Climate Movement' from Formidable Vegetable. . Given how many times I have played Formidable Vegetable on PGAP, it is fair to say that I am quite the fan. It was wonderful to see them play live at New Years Eve in Albany and to discover we are (sort of) neighbours.

    If you would like to find out more about Terry Leahy's work he has kindly provided some links below:

    Leahy, Terry (2019) Food Security for Rural Africa: Feeding the Farmers First, Routledge.

    Leahy, Terry (2017) Humanist Realism for Sociologists, Routledge,

    Leahy, Terry, Website – [The Gift Economy](www.gifteconomy.org.au)

    Leahy, Terry – YouTube channel: What’s Wrong with the World and How to Fix it.

    Leahy, Terry and sister Leahy, Gillian (2013) The Chikukwa Project documentary - 53 minutes version

    Leahy, Terry and sister Leahy, Gillian (2013) The Chikukwa Project documentary- 20 minutes educational version

    And if this wasn't enough links:

    I recently had my 'post-growth manifesto' published on the Ending Overshoot blog. It is based on the script I used for the Christmas 2021 PGAP special.

    In Season 1 of PGAP I interviewed Anitra Nelson who had just co-authored an exciting overview of the Degrowth movement. I actually met Anitra through one of Terry's day parties. It is all one big happy and most functional family at PGAP!

    Too much permaculture barely enough? PGAP has interviewed David Holmgren, Caroline Smith, Tania Brookes and Artist as Family
    Special Guest: Terry Leahy.

    • 1 hr 1 min
    Season 3 Premiere - Leadership toward This Sustainable Life with Joshua Spodek

    Season 3 Premiere - Leadership toward This Sustainable Life with Joshua Spodek

    “I started bringing leadership into the environment. Because I felt like there’s a lot of people telling other people what to do, spreading facts and figures. But no-one really making it enjoyable. Saying you’re going to like this, you’re going to wish you started earlier, speaking from personal experience.”

    Joshua Spodek is a bestseller author, multiple TEDx talker and host of award winning podcast “This Sustainable Life”. Joshua is a huge advocate for the environment and for system change toward a post-growth planet. He takes his politics into his home life and made some incredible life transformations in his mission to living more sustainably. So, how has a move toward a meat-free life of no food packaging and no plane miles played out for our special guest on the Season 3 Premiere of PGAP? Is this a life of wilful deprivation and martyrdom? Or have these personal challenges transformed his life into one of joy and a different kind of abundance? Joshua tells all through amusing personal anecdotes coupled with an incredibly well-read and researched outlook on the world.

    “We have to change ourselves if we expect others to change. Being right is….really annoying.” - Joshua Spodek

    Welcome back to Post-Growth Australia Podcast after a brief hiatus. I for one am very honoured to be launching the Season 3 Premiere of PGAP with such as distinguished guest as Joshua Spodek. His long history in public speaking alone will ensure that your ears are serenaded for the next 60 minutes! A cursory viewing of any of his TEDx talks will prove my point: here; here; or here;

    You may also have noticed that PGAP has had a bit of face-lift, with an update to the graphics courtesy of Squeaky Pea designs. I hope you like the changes! Looking forward to a mammoth season 3 with a stellar array of amazing guests. The new intro sounds for Season 3 PGAP provided courteousy of Perth composer Nicholas Gardiner. Find out more here.

    “Growth on its own means always craving what you don’t have. It means craving. It means ‘never satisfied’.” – Joshua Spodek

    I first discovered Joshua big time when he interviewed my colleague from Sustainable Population Australia, Dr. Jane O’Sullivan on his podcast ‘This Sustainable Life.’ Jane was invited to discuss a recent discussion paper she wrote for SPA debunking the ageing population crisis myth. ‘Silver Tsunami or Silver Lining: Why we should not fear an ageing population’ is available on the SPA website and makes for very eye-opening reading.

    The link to the interview can be found here. ‘This Sustainable Life’ is an amazing podcast series where big name guests are invited to make personal changes to their lives – for the inspiration of all! I myself have an interview coming up on the offshoot podcast series ‘This Sustainable Life: Solve For Nature.’ Stay tuned!

    _ “Efficiency in a finite world with growth leads to scarcity.” _– Joshua Spodek

    In the introduction to this episode I brought up how Australia is facing a urea shortage which has potentially dire consequences for our diesel and trucking industries (whould woulda thunk?) If you are interested in reading more, have a gander here.

    The above is just one symptom of what will soon be a much larger chain of supply chain issues and resource scarcity. Last month I shared around this article “It’s Not a Supply Chain Crisis — It’s a Failing Economy” on my Twitter feed just in time for the festive season! Want me to discuss limits to growth at YOUR next festive event? Pick up the phone - I'm a literal SCREAM at parties!

    _ “next time you’re stuck in Traffic, next time you’re waiting in line some place, imagine a world of 2 billion people.”_

    Sustainable Population Australia, who support this podcast, aren’t claiming to turn the world’s numbers back to 2 billion overnight, but they are loudly advocating for an equitable world with

    • 1 hr 2 min
    PGAP Christmas Special with Michael's Seasonal Manifesto

    PGAP Christmas Special with Michael's Seasonal Manifesto

    The festive season is upon us as we wrap close to another year in the decade of consequence. To ‘celebrate’, PGAP host Michael Bayliss shares his own personal vision for a post-growth future. He looks back nostalgically on his Melbourne years, reflecting on the many successes and challenges from ten years in many various grassroots community initiatives. He also plays a selection of songs, penned by himself or by friends that espouse the Degrowth values of this podcast even if they may not inspire complete festive cheer. Enjoy!

    During our break between seasons, PGAP has been busy updating the graphics and the sound. What do you think of the new look? The graphics were provided by Adelaide’s Squeaky Pea Designs. The new intro theme was provided by Perth based composer and film scorer Nicholas Gardiner. Please contact PGAP anytime to share your thoughts. Rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast – that would be the perfect Christmas gift (hint! Hint!)

    I also have a brand new Website now! Check it out here. ‘Michalbayliss.org’ is a depository of all my creativity, public outreach and multimedia projects over the years. I can also be contacted through the website for any collaborative opportunities that you may have in mind. I am available for interview, article writing, sound/video editing, project management, all at very competitive degrowth rates.

    PGAP is not the only podcast where I have been busy. I have recently been a guest on both the ‘Overpopulation Podcast’ and ‘The Steady Stater’ where I have been honoured to have some of my most enjoyable conversations in my life with some of the best hosts and all round human beings one could hope for. Stick around and have a gander!

    I mentioned Town Planning Rebellion on this episode and have interviewed TPR’s founder, Mark Allen, on two occasions during PGAP’s history. Mark has been particularly influential on my activism, outlook and attitudes, and I strongly recommending checking out ‘Holistic Activism’. Mark also founded the music project ‘Counting Backwards’ who provided the exclusively demo track ‘Miserable Sodding Christmas’ for this episode. You can discover Counting Backwards music here.

    Speaking of influences. I would like to acknowledge the work of Michelle Maloney, Anitra Nelson, Ian Lowe, Katherine Trebeck and Anne Poelina for having an impact on my views, outlooks, and philosophical positions that I have shared on this episode. I’ve been lucky enough to have them all as guests on PGAP! I’m sure we don’t share eye to eye on every single issue and I'm quite proud of holding my own opinions. Nevertheless, it is good to wear your influences on your sleeve!

    And finally, my band Shock Octopus, shared two songs on this episode: ‘A Deer Caught In The Headlights’ and ‘So Far From Home’. The entire catalogue can be seen on Bandcamp or on my website.

    Stick around for the new year when PGAP launches season 3 in style with a star studded cast of special guests. Until then, have a great festive season.

    • 51 min
    Season 2 Finale with Economic Reform Australia

    Season 2 Finale with Economic Reform Australia

    In this final episode of season 2, PGAP speaks with Economic Reform Australia (ERA) to find out why fundamental changes to our economic systems are a crucial part of a transition toward degrowth. Why do we have an economic system that prizes money and extraction over the environment and prospects for future generations? What is this ‘MMT’ that everyone is on about these days? Why is economics something that everyone should try to understand and not just leave to the academics and experts? PGAP travels to Adelaide to chat with ERA’s very own Bernard Thomson to find out more.

    PGAP also speaks with freelance economic thinker Zoltan Bexley to find out more about why Australia’s current economic system results in many poor outcomes for many of us, such as the favourite bugbear on PGAP – Australia’s housing unaffordability crisis.
    Please not that opinions raised in this episode are those of both guests and may not necessarily reflect the opinions of ERA as a whole.

    Host Michael Bayliss reflects on the dizzying last 12 months on the road, armed with microphone and recording hardware, that has resulted in on-the-ground PGAP views spanning the east coast from the highlands of the NSW/QLD border, down to Tasmania, then across to Adelaide. Now settled in Albany, Western Australia, I take time on this episode to reflect on the amazing journey and the incredible diversity of people doing outstanding post-growth things as we finally wrap up for season 2 of PGAP.

    PGAP will be taking a short break to revamp our graphics, create a new website and most importantly, take a well-earned break before we return with a vengeance for season 3.
    In the meantime, you can while away the time by meandering through these following links:

    The Economic Reform Australia (ERA) website can be found here. Sign up for a regular online journal and if you live in Adelaide, ERA regularly host events that take place within the heart of Adelaide's CBD.

    Please take the time during PGAP’s break to rate and review this podcast. Apple Podcast seems best place to do so.

    We would love to hear your thoughts and opinions on PGAP. Please don’t hesitate to contact us on our contact page to let us know what you truly think of us (within reason). If you would like to be interviewed by PGAP, or know someone you’d like to dob in, please contact us. Host Michael Bayliss is also available for interview – he loves being a host but he also misses being a guest!

    PGAP relies on word of mouth to get around, we don’t use any advertising or paid promotion. So, please get out there and spread our agnostic gospel on post-growth.

    Michael wrote statement on behalf of Sustainable Population Australia, “Rethinking Big Australia: the impacts of COVID-19”. Extracts from the statement have been published at ‘Independent Australia’ and the ‘Ending Overshoot’ blog.

    PGAP is made possible from the support of ‘Sustainable Population Australia'. At PGAP, we put our hat off to SPA for allowing this podcast to explore the broader issue of degrowth in which the population debate is one controversial but a necessary moving piece of discussion in the movement. Throughout the two seasons of PGAP, we often ask our guests at least one question of population and invite a diversity of opinions that invites open discussion rather than closed division. This is the only way we’re going to move forward on issues that we may not always see eye to eye on.

    Speaking of SPA, they have launched a ‘Let’s Rethink Big Australia’ campaign. We invite you to check it out.

    Speaking of checking out, PGAP wishes you well and see you soon for season 3.


    Intro 00:00 - 06:56
    Bernard 07:08 - 34:16
    Zoltan 34:24 - 01:02:05
    Outro 01:02:16 - 01:04:58
    Special Guests: Bernard Thomson and Zoltan Bexley.

    • 1 hr 4 min
    Feeling the Future through Fiction with Sharon Ede

    Feeling the Future through Fiction with Sharon Ede

    “What we feel shapes what we believe. What if we could feel the future before it arrives?”

    So reads the back cover of new fiction book ‘Mage’ written by sustainability professional, post-growth advocate and Adelaide local Sharon Ede. In this penultimate episode of the second season of PGAP, Sharon tells us why fiction, story-telling and emotional resonance are essential communications tools for the environmental movement to engage with the broader community. Providing facts and figures to rally the troops over large-scale existential crises has so far failed to work. Engaging people emotionally through storytelling and providing a ripping yarn just might be the missing link. Mage is definitely this kind of book and hopefully this interview will convince you to add 'Mage' to your post-growth library.

    I have not come across much post-growth fiction in my travels. Up until a few years ago, the 1970s novel ‘Ecotopia’ provided a fascinating day-to-day account on how a more ecocentric society might operate on the west coast of the USA. Unfortunately, the book is starting to show its age somewhat in some of its social justice attitudes when looked back through the lens of the 21st century. A much more up to date fictional account of a post-growth society can be found in the 2013 novel ‘Entropia’ by Dr Samuel Alexander. At a seminar at the 2019 Earth Ethics conference in Melbourne, Dr Alexander shared with attendees the importance for story-telling and art to carry the environmental message to the broader world.

    In fact, the music project ‘Mortimer's Method’ took this idea of art as education a step further by putting samples from the audio-book of 'Entropia' to modern music. An extract of the track 'How Now Shall We Live' is provided at the end of the episode.

    ‘Mage’ joins this pantheon and yet Sharon Ede goes beyond utopian society fiction and casts a much broader net with her new novel. Spanning the continents between Adelaide, Venice and the Arctic, Mage brings together many of the ideas and innovations that Sharon has picked up through her years as an environmental and Post-Growth advocate. It is a ripping epic of a yarn, worthy of comparisons to Dan Brown, Tim Powers or even an episode of Doctor Who.

    This episode was recorded, once more, on site at Christie Walk eco-development in Central Adelaide. In fact, it was recorded on the same evening as my interview with Sue Gilbey and Mark Allen in the previous episode of PGAP! So thank you to Christie Walk for providing the venue and Sue for providing the recording technology. Sue and Mark stayed around for the interview, so on occasion they can be heard in the background during the interview.

    It has been a pleasure to spend some time in Adelaide and to interview the post-growth movers and shakers who call this fine part of the world home. So it is with slight sadness on my part that this is not only the penultimate episode of The Adelaide series of interviews, but also the penultimate episode of the second series of PGAP. The second season of PGAP has been an epic travelogue almost worthy of ‘Mage’ including on site interviews from Northern Rivers to Adelaide and just about everywhere in between. It has been an incredible ride and thank you all for listening and travelling with me on this journey of discovery.

    ** Too much Post-Growth barely enough? Here are some links to further occupy your time. Thank me later!**

    A online link to find out more about Mage (and the seal the deal on your own personal copy) can be found here

    Want to find out more about Sharon and her extensive work outside of writing great fiction? Make a good start here

    The previous episode of PGAP was also recorded at Christie Walk (link here). Sue Gilbey interviewed Sharon for the Adelaide Chronicles podcast (link here)

    I mentioned Dr Michelle Maloney and the Earth Ethics conference of 2019. Michelle and her work with Australia

    • 1 hr
    Exploring Christie Walk EcoHousing with Adelaide Chronicles and Town Planning Rebellion

    Exploring Christie Walk EcoHousing with Adelaide Chronicles and Town Planning Rebellion

    This special and unorthodox episode of PGAP was recorded on-site the Christie Walk ecological co-housing development in central Adelaide to speak to not one, but TWO very special guests. Sue Gilbey is a resident of Christie Walk, host of the Adelaide Chronicles podcast series, an environmental activist, and an advocate for social justice causes. She is the only Australian (so far) to receive the internationally acclaimed Bremen Peace Award. Mark Allen is the founder of Town Planning Rebellion and Holistic Activism. He is a former town planner and former co-host of the City Limits program on Melbourne’s 3CR radio station. In this episode, Sue takes us on a virtual tour of Christie Walk as an example of sustainable inner city community development. Mark provides insight and clarity as to why places like Christie Walk are the exception and not the rule -and why we need to fight back at Australia’s broken property and housing sector (and those who profit most from this status quo).

    This is an interview in two parts. In part one of the interview, I caught up with Sue at Christie Walk to share her amazing life story, which includes a travelogue of rural Australia, Bangladesh and Cambodia. She shares her work campaigning for a sustainable and inclusive future for all people. Sue herself lives with an acquired disability, but this has not held her back from her tireless activism which includes hosting the incredible Adelaide Chronicles podcast.

    In Part 2, I met up again with Sue at Christie Walk and was delighted to be joined by Mark Allen from Town Planning Rebellion and Holistic Activism. Using Christie Walk as a central focus, the conversation then broadens into a discussion at to why alternative housing models are a critical part of the transition toward a post-growth world. Further, how the developer and investor infiltrated housing sector makes this crucial change so difficult. Mark Allen is a return guest to PGAP, having been a special guest in last year’s Retrosuburbia episode with David Holmgren. Mark also provides the music for this episode, via the track ‘Lost and Found Hours’ from his music project ‘Counting Backwards.’

    This was the first time PGAP has attempted a three way interview on location and we were very fortunate to take advantage of Sue’s amazing portable 360 degree recording device. Sue and I ebb in an out of swapping ‘interviewer’ and ‘interviewee’ roles but I think we just about pull it off in a post-modern way. It is not every day you get to describe the aims of your podcast on your own show but we live in fascinating times.

    This episode was recorded with gratitude on unceded Kaurna land and PGAP pays respect to elders past, present and emerging.
    Special Guests: Mark Allen and Sue Gilbey.

    • 1 hr 3 min

Customer Reviews

4.9 out of 5
12 Ratings

12 Ratings

Tommy_W ,

Outstanding & life-changing!

THESE are the topics that everyone should be talking about! With unfailing sharp wit and a most pleasant voice, Michael takes a deep dive into the most controversial topics of our time, reminding all of us what really matters for humanity and the planet. A must-hear for everyone who cares about the future.

djames55 ,

Eye opening and informative

Important fringe ideas. Hard topics to discuss in the modern world. But glad this podcast is getting the message and ideas out there, thank you

Cblue19 ,

Opened minded PGA & relaxing/chill

This podcast has opened my mind on Post Growth, it interests me in some way & the way we live. I found this one Easy listening, the interviews & music has inspired me, I listen to it when I take public transport in perth & I find it very Gentle. it helps my brain to think about what’s around me like (transport/eco) so I can distract myself from the COVID-19. It’s the kind of podcast I would listen to with my cup of coffee. It’s one of my favourite podcasts so far. Keep up the good work Mike.

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