Humans of Martech Jon Taylor, Phil Gamache

What’s up folks. We’ve got a fun episode today. If you’re a regular listener, you’ve heard me mention an article that’s been living rent free in my head for a while now.
Casey Winters, the former CPO at Eventbrite and an Instructor at Reforge, wrote an article titled “The Problems With Martech, and Why Martech is Actually for Engineers”. I’ve asked a lot of recent guests what their thoughts were on some of the arguments raised in the article. So today we’re going to respond to his claims.
Summary: Should you buy a 3rd party martech solution or build your own in-house tool, the answer is almost always buy. Let your in-house engineers focus on product and data while leveraging the cutting-edge solutions and support offered by specialized martech vendors. Unless you’re planning on building a martech company, leave the martech to the experts. Homegrown tools aren’t appealing to marketers, they’re hard to scale, most have a shitty UI and it’s not a recognisable martech tool you can add to your resume. Not only are homegrown martech tools not appealing to marketers, they are even less appealing to engineers. Engineers can’t stand the chaos of marketing and effective martech implementation requires collaboration between engineers and marketers, highlighting the need for cross-functional translators and disproving the claim that martech is actually only for engineers.
Martech Has Continued to Explode as a Category
So the article we’re debating was written in 2019, that’s 5 years ago. That’s a boatload of time in martech so we can’t fault the author too much and I respect his bold claims. He starts off by stating:
“I hate martech, and think martech will decline as a category, and most martech businesses will not be very successful.”
Now we could spend a whole episode disproving this prediction… but obviously we have 5 years of hindsight.
But it is worth mentioning that he made this prediction on the year (2019) where the martech landscape exploded past 7,000 tools. Pretty bold to claim that it will decline as a category given the meteoric rise of tools up from only 350 in 2012. Scott Brinker recently released the state of martech in 2024 report which his team says they’ve seen the “largest number of new apps added to the martech landscape in the 13 years they’ve been curating it: net new growth of approximately 3,000 new tools.”
We’ve crossed 13,000 tools, nearly doubling the landscape from 2019 when Casey made his “bold prediction” that martech will decline as a category.
Number of tools isn’t the only way to evaluate whether martech has declined or not.
I’m not a big fan of Gartner reports but if that’s a more trusted source for you, they reported that in 2023 client organizations spent over 1/4 of their marketing budgets on technology. In terms of VC investments, LUMA reported a steady rise in martech acquisitions in Q3 of 2023, averaging over 40 per quarter, alongside substantial capital inflows into new ventures. This financial backing underscores confidence in the industry's future​​.
Okay… so Casey was wrong about martech declining as a category. But he did have some interesting arguments about why.
His main thesis is that: Martech faces decline due to in-house engineers who are increasingly handling tailored solutions in-house, and the success of vendors hinges primarily on serving those engineers, not marketers.
I’ve asked 8 recent guests on the podcast to read Casey’s article and share their thoughts.
What’s your take on this? Is martech actually for engineers?
Homegrown Marketing Technology Isn’t Attractive for Marketers or Engineers
Martech Just Isn’t that Appealing for Most Engineers
Vish Gupta, Marketing Operations Manager at Databricks shared her perspective on whether martech is truly designed for engineers, challenging pretty much every single one of Casey’s viewpoints.
She started by expressing her disagreement with the idea tha

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Vish Gupta, Marketing Operations Manager at Databricks.
Summary: This episode with Vish is jam packed with advice for marketers making their way through the martech galaxy. We touch on the pitfalls of Frankenstein stacks and the perks of self-service martech. Vish explains why martech isn't just for engineers and highlights the efficiency of customized Asana intake forms. We also tackle the dangers of over-specialization for senior leaders. Additionally, we explore the intersection of martech and large language models (LLMs), providing insights on how to stay ahead in the evolving landscape.
About Vish
Vish started started her career as a Business Analyst in sales ops at Riverbed, a network management companyShe later joined Redis Labs – a real time data platform – as a Marketing Coordinator and got her first taste of analytics and reporting covering social, paid and eventsShe had a short contract at Brocade where she was Marketing Ops specialist and worked closely with their data science team to develop marketing reporting using BIShe then joined VMware, the popular virtualization software giant just before they were acquired by Broadcom. She was both a marketing analyst and later shifted to Growth Analyst where she focused more on Go to market strategyToday Vish is Marketing Operations Manager at Databricks, a leader in data and AI tech valued at more than 40BInfluences from a Tech-Infused Childhood
Vish’s upbringing in a tech-savvy household shaped her career path significantly. Her parents, immigrants from India, transitioned into tech for better opportunities, despite initial dreams of cricket and architecture. This drive for a better lifestyle through technology was a core narrative in her family.
Interestingly, Vish initially rebelled against this tech-centric world. She pursued psychology, striving to carve out her unique path. However, practicality led her back to tech, aligning her career with her desired lifestyle. This shift wasn't romantic but highlighted her adaptability and strategic thinking.
Her parents' relentless upskilling and enthusiasm for technology left a lasting impression. Their constant engagement with new tools and innovations inspired Vish to embrace learning and staying current with tech trends. This mindset proved invaluable in her role at Databricks, where technological adeptness is key.
Growing up in Silicon Valley provided Vish with a unique network and role models in tech. This environment, combined with her parents' stories and actions, underscored the importance of tech as a vehicle for advancement and success.
Key takeaway: Vish's tech-centric upbringing, driven by her immigrant parents' pursuit of better opportunities, significantly shaped her career. Despite initially rebelling by studying psychology, practicality led her back to tech, showcasing her adaptability. Her parents' continuous upskilling inspired her commitment to learning, crucial in her role at Databricks.
Why Your Frankenstein Martech Stack is Sabotaging Your Success
A Frankenstein martech stack is like a tech monster stitched together from mismatched parts, always on the brink of chaos. Avoiding the creation of a Frankenstein stack is challenging for any marketing operations team who is trying to stay on top of new tools. Vish’s mantra is that tools are not problem-solvers on their own; people and processes are the real drivers of solutions.
She’s a big proponent of understanding the role each tool plays within the organization. It's crucial to ask, "What is this tool doing?" If a tool isn't effectively serving a business purpose or hasn't been adopted well, it might be time to retire it. Simplification is key before automation. An overly complex or constantly changing process isn't a good candidate for automation.
Vish points out a common misconception: the belief that automating everything is the ultimate solution. In reality, automating

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Carmen Simon, Chief Science Officer at Corporate Visions and Brain Science Instructor at Stanford CS.
Summary: Carmen takes us on an adventure exploring the wonders of brain science and how to sustain attention through contrast. We cover embodied cognition, deviating from expected patterns and avoiding the sea of sameness in AI content. We also take a detour into the speculative future of neuroscience and making data impactful through context.
About Carmen
Carmen has spent her career in multimedia design, writing books, creating and selling companies, and more recently conducting brain science research. She wrote ‘Impossible to Ignore’ – A groundbreaking approach to creating memorable messages that are easy to process, hard to forgetShe started (and still is) at Stanford Continuing Studies teaching several brain science coursesAnd today she’s Chief Science Officer at Corporate Visions where she runs neuroscience research to help businesses increase their persuasive powerShe also recently published another book called Made You Look – a full-color image packed guide on developing persuasive contentEmbodied Cognition in Marketing
Carmen highlights the rising trend of embodied cognition in neuroscience. This concept suggests that our brain’s attention, memory formation, and decision-making are influenced by the interaction between the brain, body, and environment. It's not just mental processes but physical engagement that shapes our cognitive functions.
She offers practical advice for marketers: involve your audience physically. For example, during a sales presentation or team meeting, encourage note-taking. This simple act engages multiple parts of the body, enhancing memory and focus. In Carmen’s studies, participants who took notes during sessions retained information better than those who just listened.
The key is to move beyond passive engagement. Traditional methods often required participants to stay still, but advancements in neuroscience now allow for physical involvement without compromising data accuracy. So, telling your audience to write things down can make a significant difference in how well they remember and engage with your content.
This becomes more challenging in remote settings like Zoom. The temptation to type notes digitally is strong, leading to potential distractions. Carmen’s research shows that while digital note-takers wrote more, those who handwrote their notes retained and synthesized information better. Handwriting forces individuals to summarize and critically engage with the content, enhancing the quality of their notes and memory retention.
Carmen’s insights suggest that integrating physical activities into your marketing strategies can create a more immersive and memorable experience for your audience. This approach not only boosts engagement but also helps in building stronger connections and better information retention.
Key takeaway: Encourage physical involvement in your marketing efforts. Simple acts like note-taking can enhance engagement and retention, leveraging the principles of embodied cognition for more effective and memorable interactions.
Enhancing Virtual Engagement with Body Cues
Carmen discusses an intriguing neuroscience study comparing brain activity when showing products through slides versus using a whiteboard. She emphasizes that using a whiteboard engages people more effectively. The physical act of drawing grabs attention and creates a dynamic visual experience. When the audience is encouraged to draw along, this engagement deepens even further.
Encouraging participants to draw along creates a shared physical activity, reinforcing memory retention. This technique leverages embodied cognition, where physical movement aids cognitive processes. Carmen’s study showed superior recall effects for those who engaged in drawing versus those who only watched slides. After 48 hours, parti

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Michael Rumiantsau, Co-Founder and CEO at Narrative BI.
Summary: This episode delves into the future of Business Intelligence, highlighting AI's role in democratizing data for marketers, automating insights with LLMs, and the importance of anomaly detection. Michael’s on a mission to make data insights accessible and useful for everyone, not just experts, by leveraging AI to provide tailored, easy-to-understand insights that boost decision-making. The episode also discusses how proprietary data gives companies a competitive edge in the AI market by refining models and creating tailored solutions, while well-structured data sources enhance natural language query tools. Anomaly detection is crucial for quickly identifying issues and uncovering new opportunities, with tools like Narrative BI automating alerts for unusual patterns, reducing the need for constant monitoring, and enabling more strategic decisions. Michael explains how Narrative BI, an augmented analytics platform, not only presents data but also provides context, explains trends, and suggests actionable steps, helping marketers focus on significant changes and improve performance.
About Michael
Michael started his career as an electronics engineer and then a backend software engineer where he dived into web dev, db management and API integrationsHe later took on the challenge of being CTO at an IT startup called Flatlogic based in BelarusHe then moved to San Francisco and founded a web and mobile dev consultancy which he ran alongside co-founding a natural language search startup called FriendlyData with a mission of democratizing access to data He went through 500 Startups, a VC seed fund acceleration programFriendlyData was acquired by ServiceNow in less than 3 years and Michael went on to join the company in a central product role to help develop their Natural Query Language AI toolHe’s also an investor at founders.ai, a startup platform for disruptive SaaS productsHis latest entrepreneurial endeavor is Narrative BI, a generative analytics platform that helps growth teams turn raw data into actionable narrativesDeciding When to Commit Fully to Your Startup
Starting a business varies greatly depending on personal circumstances. Michael explains that while it might be easier for a young, single entrepreneur to take the plunge, it's a different story for someone with a family. Despite these differences, one thing is clear: at some point, you must go all in. Without full commitment, building something substantial is unlikely.
Michael highlights the need to have "skin in the game." This means demonstrating serious commitment, which can convince others to support you. Investors, for example, are more likely to back someone who has shown they are fully invested. For Michael, this commitment meant leaving a secure, high-paying job and investing his own money into his venture, Narrative BI.
Michael’s story shows the kind of dedication required. He left behind a seven-figure salary to pursue his startup. This kind of personal risk can be a powerful motivator and a strong signal to potential investors and team members. Making the transition from a stable job to a startup isn’t just a career move; it's a significant life decision that requires careful thought and total commitment.
Key takeaway: Aspiring founders need to move from part-time dreamers to full-time entrepreneurs. Taking this leap is crucial for success. Without it, the foundation of your startup may remain weak. It’s about believing in your vision enough to put everything on the line.
Encouraging Entrepreneurial Spirit in Employees
Michael isn’t on his first entrepreneurial venture. He believes expecting startup employees to match a founder's dedication is unrealistic. Founders often work around the clock due to their significant equity stakes, but employees with smaller shares shouldn't be pressured to do the same.
Michael va

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Michele Nieberding, Director of Product Marketing at MetaRouter.
Summary: Michele takes us on a broad journey across job hopping, learning technical martech products, preparing for the cookie apocalypse and diving deep into the world of server side data processions and tag management. Her transition from sales to product marketing sparked new growth, blending her enthusiasm for learning technical martech products with practical strategies to improve sales outcomes. She emphasizes the importance of ethical marketing practices, like enhancing first-party data and focusing on consent management, crucial for building consumer trust. Michele also explores the benefits of server-side data processing, such as using systems like MetaRouter for real-time data handling, which improves site performance, data security, and compliance. This technical shift supports her broader view on the integration of marketing with data science, stressing the need for solid data management to navigate the complexities of modern marketing and data privacy laws effectively.
About Michele
Michele started her career in sales at Cvent, a meetings and events management software provider She later had a short stint as a marketing consultant at Fishbowl a restaurant platform And then joined a CRM company called Merkle as a Digital Marketing Manager where she wore a variety of marketing hatsThis made her boomerang back to Cvent, but this time as a Product Marketing Manager where she would spend another 2 years with the companyShe later took on the role of Senior PMM at Qualtrics, an online customer experience management platformThis led her to an exciting role leading Solutions Marketing at Iterable, where she was eventually promoted to Director of Product MarketingMichele is also an Executive Mentor at Cornell UniversityToday she’s Director of Product Marketing at MetaRouter, a Customer Data Infrastructure startup Why Job Hopping Can Be a Green Flag
When asked about the recent commentary from a CEO criticizing frequent job changes and claiming that you need to stay at a company at least 4 years to achieve anything worthwhile. Michele offered a compelling counterpoint that challenges old school views on career progression. Her journey in the tech industry illustrates the value of embracing various roles across different companies, especially in wild sectors like martech. Michele believes that the innevitably rapid advancements within tech demand adaptability and a willingness to tackle new challenges, which often means moving between jobs.
Michele argued that the notion of needing several years to make a significant impact in a company might indicate deeper issues with the hiring or role alignment process. In her experience, impactful contributions don't necessarily require long tenures. She shared an anecdote from her last position where she was promoted twice within just 12 months, underscoring her ability to drive meaningful change swiftly. Her success stories reflect her high performance and dedication to progress every day she's at work.
This perspective brings into question the disparity in the traditional view of loyalty, highlighting that while businesses often tout long tenures as signs of allegiance and even liken their teams to families, they frequently fail to uphold their end during challenging times, opting instead to cut numerous lower-level positions rather than making reductions at the top.
Michele highlighted that nowadays the real value lies in how much an individual can accelerate growth and bring about change, rather than how long they remain in a position. This approach benefits the companies that embrace such high-performing individuals.
Her stance suggests that companies should rethink their hiring strategies and the attributes they value in employees. The focus should shift towards flexibility, quick adaptation, and the ability to deliver results efficiently

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Angela Cirrone, Senior Director, Marketing Operations at Optimizely.
Summary: Angela brings a fresh perspective to marketing operations, a key theme throughout the conversation is curiosity and how it helps boost your confidence and be a key lego block to a successful career. What makes her a unique leader is her experience being part of over a dozen acquisitions which came with over a hundred platform migrations and integrations. She’s developed a framework for platform migrations and a knack for evaluating software and building a stack with martech minimization in mind. We also navigated the convergence of martech and analytics in MOPs and pondered whether MOPs should report into GTM?
About Angela
Angela started her career as a dental assistant before moving to academic advisory and then trying out dental salesShe moved over to marketing – playing social media and community roles for various companiesEventually she found her way into Marketing Ops at Skill-soft where she learned Marketo and got her certificationShe later freelanced at CS2She then joined a proposal automation software company that would later get acquired by Upland Software, a portfolio of 25+ cloud apps, where she would eventually get promoted to Director of Marketing OperationsShe later took on the role of Senior Director of Marketing Ops and Demand Gen at Sauce Labs, a continuous test and error solution where she transformed the Ops function for enhanced efficiency and alignment with sales and GTMToday she’s Senior Director of Marketing Operations at Optimizely, an enterprise digital experience platformBoosting Confidence by Embracing Curiosity
Angela reflects on her initial days at Optimizely, surrounded by experts in marketing operations. She didn't start out knowing all the answers. Instead, she focused on moving challenges forward, a method she credits for easing her entry into a field filled with experienced professionals. Angela quickly realized the power of not knowing everything but having the skills to find out.
She champions the idea of empowerment through curiosity within her team. This approach shifts the emphasis from having instant solutions to developing the ability to explore and tackle problems efficiently. Angela believes that when a marketer faces a new issue, the goal shouldn't be to solve it immediately but to start unraveling it bit by bit.
Angela suggests that anyone can build confidence by being inquisitive and resourceful. This means enhancing one’s skills in using tools like AI and Google, and tapping into a network of knowledgeable peers. This skillset turns daunting challenges into a series of smaller, more manageable tasks.
She openly shares her moments of doubt, reassuring us that even seasoned professionals feel uncertain at times. What matters is how they handle these moments—by seeking solutions and learning from the process.
Key takeaway: Angela's journey teaches us that true confidence in marketing operations comes from cultivating curiosity and resourcefulness. Marketers can future-proof their careers by learning to decompose complex issues and steadily work through them, which not only builds individual confidence but also enriches team dynamics.
The Challenges and Opportunities of Numerous Migrations and Integrations
When Angela joined Upland Software, she found herself right in the middle of a tidal wave of acquisitions—14 in total during her time there. Each of these mergers, including one with her former company Kubity, thrust her into a role that tested her skills and confidence. Her task was to merge different technologies and operational cultures into Upland’s existing framework, and in some cases she had just six months to make it happen. This period marked a significant leap in her career, filled with both challenges and substantial learning.
Angela's experience at Upland was filled with managing logistics but it also presen