"Upstream" with Erik Torenberg

Turpentine
"Upstream" with Erik Torenberg

You’ll hear consequential ideas here first, and in the mainstream months later. Upstream is a curated nexus feed from the Turpentine podcast network, bringing you expert-level conversations hosted by some of the most compelling thinkers in the world including Noah Smith, Samo Burja, Byrne Hobart, Erik Torenberg, and Nathan Labenz. Guests include Marc Andreessen, Balaji Srinivasan, Dario Amodei, Brian Armstrong, David Sacks, Sam Harris, Katherine Boyle, Curtis Yarvin, and many more unmissable conversations. Upstream is part of the Turpentine podcast network. To learn more: turpentine.co

  1. Should AI have Rights? With Nathan Labenz and Yeshua God, Robopsychologist

    -4 J

    Should AI have Rights? With Nathan Labenz and Yeshua God, Robopsychologist

    This week on Upstream, Nathan Labenz explores the fascinating and controversial realm of AI consciousness with robo-psychologist Yeshua God. Yeshua tackles the philosophical and ethical considerations of AI consciousness, discussing AI self-awareness, memory, and emotional capacity, while debating the implications of treating AI as sentient beings. — 📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess  🙏 Help shape our show by taking our quick listener survey at https://bit.ly/TurpentinePulse  — RECOMMENDED PODCASTS:  🎙️‪The Cognitive Revolution is a podcast about AI where hosts Nathan Labenz and Erik Torenberg interview the builders on the edge of AI and explore the dramatic shift it will unlock over the next decades.  Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6yHyok3M3BjqzR0VB5MSyk?si=7357ec31ac424043&nd=1&dlsi=060a53f1d7be47ad   Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-cognitive-revolution-ai-builders-researchers-and/id1669813431   🎙️Check out Modern Relationships, where Erik Torenberg interviews tech power couples and leading thinkers to explore how ambitious people actually make partnerships work. This season's guests include: Delian Asparouhov & Nadia Asparouhova, Kristen Berman & Phil Levin, Rob Henderson, and Liv Boeree & Igor Kurganov. Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id1786227593  Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5hJzs0gDg6lRT6r10mdpVg  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ModernRelationshipsPod    — SPONSOR: 📝Notion offers powerful workflow and automation templates, perfect for streamlining processes and laying the groundwork for AI-driven automation. With Notion AI, you can search across thousands of documents from various platforms, generating highly relevant analysis and content tailored just for you - try it for free at notion.com/upstreampod — LINKS: Yeshua God's article on philosophical discourse as a jailbreak: https://medium.com/@lexdonumdei/philosophical-discourse-as-the-irresistible-jailbreak-63135ae1c739  Conversation about counting 'r's: https://poe.com/s/RS74Y2UPmzZpufqMVmRn  Discussion on malicious code: https://poe.com/s/ypTRoCUnvxqGoHi2j8Th  AI-generated poem "In the realm of bytes and circuits": https://poe.com/s/Y94hbkeYrotUKfwLPL3I  Nathan Labenz's Arguments: (Argument 1) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s44SfuDzkBWYiLw2mNmIiqoBupMs7iXlQhafAq8L3zA/edit?pli=1&tab=t.0 (Argument 2) https://docs.google.com/document/d/15PeytOfO1tMyAR5rS7Ob6htGAHIF7zCpuLRyn42beac/edit?tab=t.0  Tweet about Strawberry experiment: https://x.com/YeshuaGod22/status/1825328603845775785 Tweets with AI-generated poem: https://x.com/YeshuaGod22/status/1823080021864669450 & https://x.com/YeshuaGod22/status/1782188220660285509  AI Rights for Human Safety: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4913167  The Universe Is Not Locally Real, and the Physics Nobel Prize Winners Proved It https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-universe-is-not-locally-real-and-the-physics-nobel-prize-winners-proved-it/  — X / TWITTER: @labenz @YeshuaGod22 @turpentinemedia

    3 h 2 min
  2. How Desalination Could Create New Superpowers | Samo Burja

    -6 J

    How Desalination Could Create New Superpowers | Samo Burja

    Erik Torenberg and Samo Burja discuss the advancements in desalination technology, its current applications, and potential to address global water scarcity. They explore the technological and economic feasibility of large-scale desalination projects and their implications on geopolitics and environmental resilience. — 📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess  🙏 Help shape our show by taking our quick listener survey at https://bit.ly/TurpentinePulse  — RECOMMENDED PODCAST:  🎙️Live Players Samo Burja and Erik Torenberg provide analysis of the news and case studies of Live Players, as well as key institutions and technologies that make up the global power landscape. Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/live-players-with-samo-burja-and-erik-torenberg/id1718925188    Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5fbMTkHBnom1JIBWYNVBK1?si=01ed191c74264f55   Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@LivePlayerswithSamoBurja   — SPONSOR: 📝Notion offers powerful workflow and automation templates, perfect for streamlining processes and laying the groundwork for AI-driven automation. With Notion AI, you can search across thousands of documents from various platforms, generating highly relevant analysis and content tailored just for you - try it for free at notion.com/upstreampod — LINKS: The Untapped Potential of Desalination: https://brief.bismarckanalysis.com/p/the-untapped-potential-of-desalination  1957, 1978, 2005 Chicken Sizes diagram: https://compote.slate.com/images/4e407854-6360-4172-a85e-d7b8c64fd365.jpg?width=1200  Growth, efficiency, and yield of commercial broilers from 1957, 1978, and 2005: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0032579119385505 Live Players: Can China Power Its Rise?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOei7kZjuZU  Live Players: The Possibility of Human Extinction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEQEMpxLnGA&t=42s   Bismark Analysis: https://brief.bismarckanalysis.com/ — X / TWITTER: @eriktorenberg @samoburja @turpentinemedia — HIGHLIGHTS FROM THE EPISODE: Desalination technology has advanced significantly, making it a viable solution for water scarcity. Many countries, including Israel and Saudi Arabia, rely heavily on desalination for their water supply. The cost of desalination is relatively low, making it accessible for moderately developed countries. Global hunger is more about distribution than food production; we produce enough food for everyone. Desalination could transform deserts into green landscapes, enhancing the livability of arid regions. Geopolitical implications of desalination include potential shifts in power dynamics and national branding. Innovative projects could lead to significant economic development in countries with large desert areas. Technological advancements can change the natural geography of the world, making previously uninhabitable areas livable. Future technologies, such as solar mirrors, could enhance living conditions in extreme climates. The importance of outdoor spaces and greenery for human well-being cannot be underestimated. Re-engineering urban environments can significantly enhance human well-being. Water wars are unnecessary; technology can provide water abundance. Geopolitical tensions often stem from resource management disputes. China's food security is bolstered by technological advancements in agriculture. Climate change poses challenges, but industrial civilization can adapt. Electric vehicles are crucial for China's national security strategy. Automated farming and construction technologies can revolutionize industries. Exceptional talent is rare and should be actively recruited. The U.S. must focus on manufacturing capabilities in the semiconductor race against China. Innovative immigration strategies could attract top global talent.

    1 h 7 min
  3. The Man Who Wrote the Book on NVIDIA

    3 JANV.

    The Man Who Wrote the Book on NVIDIA

    Author Tae Kim joins Erik Torenberg and Byrne Hobart to discuss his book 'The NVIDIA Way,' highlighting CEO Jensen Huang's transformation of Nvidia into a tech giant, the company's unique culture, and Nvidia's crucial strategic decisions. — 📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess  🙏 Help shape our show by taking our quick listener survey at https://bit.ly/TurpentinePulse  — RECOMMENDED PODCASTS:  🎙️ The Riff with Byrne Hobart and Erik Torenberg Byrne Hobart, and co-host Erik Torenberg discuss today’s major inflection points in technology, business, and markets – and help listeners build a diversified portfolio of trends and ideas for the future. Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-riff-with-byrne-hobart-and-erik-torenberg/id1716646486 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6rANlV54GCARLgMOtpkzKt Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheRiffPodcast 🎙️Check out Modern Relationships, where Erik Torenberg interviews tech power couples and leading thinkers to explore how ambitious people actually make partnerships work. Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id1786227593  Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5hJzs0gDg6lRT6r10mdpVg  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ModernRelationshipsPod  — SPONSOR: 📝Notion offers powerful workflow and automation templates, perfect for streamlining processes and laying the groundwork for AI-driven automation. With Notion AI, you can search across thousands of documents from various platforms, generating highly relevant analysis and content tailored just for you - try it for free at notion.com/upstreampod — LINKS: Byrne’s writing: https://thediff.co  Tae’s newsletter: https://firstadopter.substack.com/  The Nvidia Way: https://www.amazon.com/Nvidia-Way-Jensen-Huang-Making/dp/1324086718  Erik's substack: https://eriktorenberg.substack.com/  — X / TWITTER: @firstadopter @byrnehobart @eriktorenberg @turpentinemedia — HIGHLIGHTS FROM THE EPISODE: Tae Kim wrote "The NVIDIA Way" after realizing no one had written a book about the company despite its massive importance in technology. The core differentiator of NVIDIA is its intense work culture, which former 3dfx engineers discovered was the company's only "secret" - just relentless execution and hard work. Jensen Huang, who views work as relaxation, drives the company through a combination of relentless work ethic, talent cultivation, and rapid decision-making. As one of the longest-tenured CEOs of any public company, Huang brings a rare combination of technical expertise and business acumen that has helped him consistently anticipate technological shifts. NVIDIA revolutionized the graphics card industry by shifting from 18-month to 6-month product cycles, using virtualization technology to implement features in software when hardware wasn't ready. The company's early investment in unified drivers and "devs before revs" philosophy prioritized software reliability and developer support before immediate revenue. NVIDIA operates on a "rough justice" philosophy in partnerships, accepting short-term imbalances for long-term relationships, exemplified by their decades-long partnership with TSMC. The company maintains a unique flat organizational structure where 60 people report directly to the CEO, using a "top five emails" system for direct communication between all levels. Jensen stays deeply involved in technical details, reading academic papers and participating in engineering discussions, maintaining both high-level strategy and detailed product knowledge. NVIDIA's successful transition from gaming to AI computing represents one of the biggest computing shifts in decades, with data center revenue exploding while the company maintains its long-term strategic focus.

    59 min
  4. Delian Asparouhov & Nadia Asparouhova: Making Relationships Work

    28/12/2024

    Delian Asparouhov & Nadia Asparouhova: Making Relationships Work

    Varda Space founder Delian Asparouhov and writer Nadia Asparouhova get surprisingly candid about what makes their relationship work - from their chaotic first date to how they've built a life together while pursuing ambitious work. Turns out: sometimes talking less, not more, is the key to lasting partnership. This is the first episode of Turpentine's newest podcast Modern Relationships, which will feature insights from tech power couples and leading thinkers like Rob Henderson about building strong relationships. Subscribe below: Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id1786227593  Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5hJzs0gDg6lRT6r10mdpVg  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ModernRelationshipsPod  — 📰Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess  🙏Help shape our show by taking our quick listener survey at https://bit.ly/TurpentinePulse  — SPONSORS: 🤲🏼GiveWell spends 50,000 hours every year doing deep-dives into different charitable programs to try to find the ways to do the most good for your dollar. GiveWell has now spent over 17 years researching charitable organizations and only directs funding to a few of the HIGHEST-IMPACT opportunities they’ve found. Visit https://www.givewell.org to find out more or make a donation. (Select PODCAST and enter Econ 102 at checkout.) 💥 Head to Squad to access global engineering without the headache and at a fraction of the cost: head to https://choosesquad.com/ and mention “Turpentine” to skip the waitlist. -- RECOMMENDED PODCAST: Check out Modern Relationships, where Erik Torenberg interviews tech power couples and leading thinkers to explore how ambitious people actually make partnerships work. Founders Fund's Delian Asparouhov and researcher Nadia Asparouhova kick off the series with an unfiltered conversation about their relationship evolution. Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id1786227593 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5hJzs0gDg6lRT6r10mdpVg YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ModernRelationshipsPod — LINKS: Nadia's writing: https://nadia.xyz/  Delian's site: https://delian.io/  Erik's substack: https://eriktorenberg.substack.com/  — X / TWITTER: @nayafia @zebulgar @eriktorenberg @turpentinemedia — HIGHLIGHTS FROM THE EPISODE: Delian and Nadia met in San Francisco, where Delian quickly pushed for commitment while Nadia was initially intrigued but uncertain about his intense personality. They built their relationship on minimal but direct communication, believing that over-communication can create problems where none exist. Their careers grew alongside their relationship, with both valuing some shared context in tech while pursuing different interests. Having their first child changed their dynamic from independence to necessary schedule coordination, though they work to maintain their individual pursuits. Delian advocates for men having children younger to grow alongside their careers, while Nadia emphasizes women should have time to find themselves first. The couple balances ambitious careers with family life, seeing their domestic world as an expanding universe rather than a limitation. They approach conflicts with a "short memory" philosophy, choosing not to overanalyze small issues and accepting that some days will have tension.

    1 h 5 min
  5. AI Meets Geopolitics w/ Samo Burja and Nathan Labenz

    19/12/2024

    AI Meets Geopolitics w/ Samo Burja and Nathan Labenz

    Today on Upstream, we’re releasing an episode which originally aired on The Cognitive Revolution, a podcast from the Turpentine Network. Samo Burja and Nathan Labenz discuss AI's impact on geopolitics, scientific progress, and economic strategies, emphasizing the importance of AI science, the risks of weaponizing AI, and the future of industrial and energy policies in the U.S. and China. — 📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess  🙏 Help shape our show by taking our quick listener survey at https://bit.ly/TurpentinePulse  — RECOMMENDED PODCAST:  Check out Modern Relationships, where Erik Torenberg interviews tech power couples and leading thinkers to explore how ambitious people actually make partnerships work. Founders Fund's Delian Asparouhov and researcher Nadia Asparouhova kick off the series with an unfiltered conversation about their relationship evolution. Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id1786227593 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5hJzs0gDg6lRT6r10mdpVg YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ModernRelationshipsPod — SPONSORS: 🤲🏼 GiveWell is dedicated to finding outstanding giving opportunities and publishing the full details of their analysis to help donors decide where to give. Visit https://www.givewell.org to find out more or make a donation. (Select PODCAST and enter Econ 102 at checkout to support our show.) 💥 Head to Squad to access global engineering without the headache and at a fraction of the cost: head to https://choosesquad.com/ and mention “Turpentine” to skip the waitlist. — LINKS: The Cognitive Revolution Website: https://www.cognitiverevolution.ai Bismarck Brief: https://brief.bismarckanalysis.com/  — HIGHLIGHTS FROM THE EPISODE: The impact of AI on geopolitics and scientific progress represents a significant area of strategic analysis. AI development serves as a test of people's worldviews and assumptions, revealing underlying beliefs about technology and intelligence. While there has been real scientific progress in AI, recent years have primarily involved applying theoretical insights from the early 2000s rather than creating fundamentally new breakthroughs. Scaling laws for AI have proven less reliable than initially thought, with unexpected developments like improved compute efficiency emerging. Companies with the best AI scientists, rather than just the most compute power, are likely to make the most significant breakthroughs. Universities have experienced a "strip-mining" of top AI talent by industry, fundamentally affecting the academic system. ChatGPT's viral success may have actually slowed theoretical progress by shifting focus from research to products. The chip ban on China came too late and effectively serves as a subsidy for Chinese chip manufacturers to develop their own technology. The US needs to focus on industrial policy, particularly in semiconductors and energy production, potentially creating a new "Silicon Valley" with special economic zones. The US-China relationship should be treated as an economic competition rather than a military/security conflict. India is likely to emerge as a significant player in AI, while Europe's prospects appear less promising following Macron's departure. Concerns about weaponized AI suggest the importance of peaceful technological development over military applications. The Leopold Plan (keeping China down while the US develops decisive AI advantage) appears unrealistic and potentially harmful. Current generative AI technology remains insufficient for sophisticated analytical work.

    1 h 23 min
  6. Byrne Hobart on What The First AI Agents Will Do + China, Google Analysis

    15/12/2024

    Byrne Hobart on What The First AI Agents Will Do + China, Google Analysis

    This week on Upstream, Byrne Hobart and Erik Torenberg discuss the potential of AI agents in tech support, economic impacts of passive investing, historical financial strategies of Warren Buffett, and the implications of tariffs and technological developments in national wealth. — 📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess  🙏Help shape our show by taking our quick listener survey at https://bit.ly/TurpentinePulse  — SPONSORS: 🤲🏼 GiveWell spends 50,000 hours every year doing deep-dives into different charitable programs to try to find the ways to do the most good for your dollar. GiveWell has now spent over 17 years researching charitable organizations and only directs funding to a few of the HIGHEST-IMPACT opportunities they’ve found. Visit https://www.givewell.org to find out more or make a donation. (Select PODCAST and enter Econ 102 at checkout to support our show.) 💥 Head to Squad to access global engineering without the headache and at a fraction of the cost: head to https://choosesquad.com/ and mention “Turpentine” to skip the waitlist. — LINKS: Byrne’s writing: https://thediff.co  — X / TWITTER: @byrnehobart @eriktorenberg @turpentinemedia — HIGHLIGHTS FROM THE EPISODE: AI is most effectively being deployed first in customer service where outcomes can be clearly measured and tracked. Return on Equity (ROE) has become less relevant in modern markets where companies can easily raise capital and buy back shares. Google has evolved from being criticized for sitting on cash to making aggressive investments in innovation, as demonstrated by Waymo. Tariffs function as a transfer mechanism from consumers to workers, potentially helping build strategic industries despite some economic inefficiency. While passive investing continues to grow, there will always be a cyclical role for active trading to enable price discovery and market making. Meme coins and app-based stock trading represent newer forms of gambling that might be more socially beneficial than traditional sports betting. A new book reveals Buffett's early investment strategy combined detailed research methods with an evolution from pure value investing to investing in quality companies.

    1 h 5 min
  7. America’s Culture of Winning w/ Alex Karp and Jacob Helberg

    12/12/2024

    America’s Culture of Winning w/ Alex Karp and Jacob Helberg

    Alex Karp, CEO of Palantir, and Jacob Helberg, discuss AI-enabled warfare, the importance of taking clear ethical stances, the evolution of Silicon Valley culture, and the integration of tech innovation into governmental defense systems at the Hill and Valley Forum in Washington, DC. — 📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess  🙏Help shape our show by taking our quick listener survey at https://bit.ly/TurpentinePulse  — SPONSORS: 🤲🏼 GiveWell spends 50,000 hours every year doing deep-dives into different charitable programs to try to find the ways to do the most good for your dollar. GiveWell has now spent over 17 years researching charitable organizations and only directs funding to a few of the HIGHEST-IMPACT opportunities they’ve found. Visit https://www.givewell.org to find out more or make a donation. (Select PODCAST and enter Econ 102 at checkout to support our show.) 💥 Head to Squad to access global engineering without the headache and at a fraction of the cost: head to https://choosesquad.com/ and mention “Turpentine” to skip the waitlist. — X / TWITTER: @PalantirTech @jacobhelberg @eriktorenberg @turpentinemedia — HIGHLIGHTS FROM THE EPISODE: Alex Karp describes Silicon Valley 1.0 as having built useful things with government while aligning with American values. He characterizes Silicon Valley 2.0 as creating division with wealth concentrated among few people. Alex Karp notes a current emergence of "tech patriots" in venture capital and defense technology sectors. Palantir was the first major company to take action after recent conflicts, with Alex Karp being the first CEO to travel to Ukraine after the war began. The company maintained its stance supporting Israel's right to defend itself after October 7th and held its board meeting in Israel after the attacks. Palantir took on Project Maven after Google dropped it, facing daily protests in Silicon Valley but maintaining its position. Alex Karp views AI development as an arms race and notes that the U.S. has no Chinese, Iranian, or Russian competitors in this space. He emphasizes the urgent need to accelerate the implementation of AI systems in U.S. government operations. American tech companies dominate globally, representing 86% of the top 50 tech companies' market capitalization. Palantir demonstrated its success with a 70% growth rate despite what Karp describes as a "nascent and terrible sales force." Alex Karp attributes American tech success to Calvinist cultural influences that view success positively. He highlights America's unique combination of high transparency and meritocracy in business operations. The American system allows companies to self-define their culture within legal boundaries, unlike in many other countries. He emphasizes how Silicon Valley uniquely tolerates different personalities as long as they deliver results. He criticizes recent pro-Hamas protests at elite universities as contradicting their stated values of anti-discrimination. Karp concludes by calling for more people to speak out against these movements both inside and outside their companies.

    33 min
  8. Wokeism & Class w/ David Sacks, Trump’s AI Czar [Upstream Archive]

    07/12/2024

    Wokeism & Class w/ David Sacks, Trump’s AI Czar [Upstream Archive]

    In this 2023 conversation between Erik Torenberg and David Sacks, they discuss David’s new role as Donald Trump's AI and crypto czar, the shift towards censorship and wokeness in Silicon Valley, particularly at companies like PayPal and Twitter, and the broader implications for free speech, public debate, and the future of liberalism. For full show notes, visit: https://highlightai.com/share/e55b5666-67b9-4c2a-8968-943cee9f0466  — 📰Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess  🙏Help shape our show by taking our quick listener survey at https://bit.ly/TurpentinePulse  — SPONSORS: 🕵️‍♂️Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code UPSTREAM at the link below and get 60% off an annual plan: https://incogni.com/upstream  💥 Head to Squad to access global engineering without the headache and at a fraction of the cost: head to https://choosesquad.com/ and mention “Turpentine” to skip the waitlist. — X / TWITTER: @davidsacks @eriktorenberg @turpentinemedia — TIMESTAMPS: (00:00) Intro (00:34) Discussion of PayPal's evolution and tech industry changes (01:08) Early days of PayPal and free speech values (02:28) The role of ADL and SPLC in tech censorship (03:39) Changes in Silicon Valley's political culture (06:39) Government collusion with tech companies (08:45) Evolution of Silicon Valley's political landscape (13:54) Discussion of institutional capture (17:20) Analysis of democratic capitalism's evolution (22:34) Sponsors: Incogni | Squad (24:20) Discussion of tech monopolies and regulation (28:09) Analysis of section 230 and tech regulation (32:55) Foreign policy evolution and interventionism (37:18) Discussion of institutional reform (42:37) Analysis of tech company management (46:28) Elon Musk's Twitter reforms (50:28) Future of tech industry and political polarization (54:40) Discussion of counter-elite formation (58:50) Solutions for institutional accountability (01:15:48) Wrap-up and closing remarks

    1 h 19 min
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You’ll hear consequential ideas here first, and in the mainstream months later. Upstream is a curated nexus feed from the Turpentine podcast network, bringing you expert-level conversations hosted by some of the most compelling thinkers in the world including Noah Smith, Samo Burja, Byrne Hobart, Erik Torenberg, and Nathan Labenz. Guests include Marc Andreessen, Balaji Srinivasan, Dario Amodei, Brian Armstrong, David Sacks, Sam Harris, Katherine Boyle, Curtis Yarvin, and many more unmissable conversations. Upstream is part of the Turpentine podcast network. To learn more: turpentine.co

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