Fried. The Burnout Podcast Cait Donovan

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“Are you an introvert or just into hurt?” asks Jahmaal Marshall, certified counselor and founder of Listen Then Speak LLC and the podcast of the same name. Many of us develop behavior and personae, he explains, around a need to protect ourselves from rejection, and we carry these into our personal and professional adult lives. Growing up with a severely addicted father, Jahmaal became as he calls it, “the classic chameleon,” overachieving in school and later at work, fulfilling everyone’s needs in an effort not to cause problems. Today on FRIED, he and Cait talk about the connection between childhood trauma and burnout, the resentment that can build up in us when we feel like we are giving with no reciprocation and the resentment we can experience from others when we set boundaries for ourselves. 

When we give with the expectation of receiving in return, we may think we’re being generous when actually we are assuming others’ needs, or acting from our own neediness. We can also close ourselves off to the many unexpected ways in which people can show their gratitude. 

Join today’s discussion to find out what happened when Jahmaal drew a line in the sand at work, and the important lesson he learned. 

Quotes
“I just wanted someone to say, ‘You’ve done well.’ Not that my mom didn’t do those things, but it’s something about when a dad speaks into his son’s life and calls the man out of him. I didn’t have that as a little boy. So, I went through most of my professional life basically searching for that.” (5:09 | Jahmaal Marshall)“My excellence, my quote-unquote high performance, was just a trauma response of a fear of rejection. I did not want to be rejected. So, it’s not that I didn’t know how to say no, I refused. Let’s key in on that word: I refused to say no, because I wanted to protect myself.” (8:09 | Jahmaal Marshall) “That expectation we have and that desire to give and receive, we’ve even been taught that—I’m a Christian— we’ve been taught that in faith-based spaces, if you give you’ll receive. That’s not always the case. It actually already puts you in the place of a false motive of life is like a genie in a bottle that I can just rub. And if I rub it like this, something’s going to pop out, and this is going to be my return on the investment I made.” (17:10 | Jahmaal Marshall)“Are you an introvert or are you just into hurt? Do you have hurt and pain that is not processed that is causing you to turtle your way through life to play it safe. There are people who are actually introverts, but you have a lot of people who are extroverts masquerading as an introvert to protect themselves from pain that has not been processed.” (29:02 | Jahmaal Marshall) 
Links
Connect with Jahmaal Marshall:
https://listenthenspeak.com/
https://mindsetmastermethod.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jahmaalmarshall/
https://topmate.io/jahmaal_marshall


Connect with Cait:
Initial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcait
Initial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahv

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

“I don’t want to convince you that whenever we finish working, you should be dancing, pirouetting on clouds in ballet slippers,” host Caitlin Donovan explains on this solo episode of FRIED, where she talks about managing expectations from burnout recovery work, particularly the program FRIED offers lead by her partner Sarah Vosen. In a space that, largely for marketing purposes, will promise that you’ll come out the other side of recovery feeling nothing but joy forever after, Cait offers some refreshing transparency about what she offers, why she specifically only offers short-term help, and the seemingly simple outcomes that will completely change your quality of life. 

Health, peace, productivity, improved communication–these are all huge things made all the more sweet for having recovered from burnout. Yet, recovery doesn’t mean a life free from problems. Cait explains her reasoning behind only offering short-term coaching and why Sarah stopped offering coaching packages. 

There is no one, perfect way to be coached or to find your way out of burnout. The best first step is to get clear about your goals and the results you yourself want to achieve. 

Quotes
“I can’t promise you that we’re going to go from burned out to blissed out. I can’t promise you that you’re going to go from burned out to fired up. I can’t promise you that you’re going to go from burned out to completely joyful and fulfilled. I don’t even think that’s what we’re aiming for.” (2:10 | Caitlin Donovan)“This initial three-month kick is just to get you out of the muck.” (3:58 | Caitlin Donovan)“Getting clarity around those goals and what those results should be for you is more important than my telling you you’re going to have fulfillment and be joyful and have bliss.” (6:47 | Caitlin Donovan)“We’re not painting this magical picture of where you’re going to be. I want to share that with you because I want you to know how we’re thinking about it behind the scenes, how we’re thinking about you behind the scenes, and how we want to show up for you as honestly as we can—I mean, this is pretty honest—in a space that often feels a little disingenuous.” (8:06 | Caitlin Donovan) “Coaching, therapy, healing—it’s not magical. It’s messy. It definitely leads to a better life—there’s no way I would want the life I had back then compared to the life I have now. But am I skating through life without problems? No. Do I never feel resentment? Jesus—hell, no. I’m still human. You’re still going to be human after going through this process.” (8:56 | Caitlin Donovan) 
Links
Connect with Cait:
Initial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcait
Initial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahv

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

“How are we not supposed to burn out? That’s what our culture wants us to do: produce, make and do until we can’t anymore,” says Dr. Erin Hinson who, with Dr. Kristen Donnelly, joins the FRIED podcast to discuss the origins of burnout culture in the United States. Early religious tenets have formed our attitude toward hard work and individualism, those tenets evolved into modern-day capitalism and the resulting false and damaging beliefs remain hard-baked into the American identity. Drawing from their bestselling book “The Culture of Burnout,” they’ll discuss the dangers of equating hard work with morality, basing one’s self worth on what they are able to produce and the myth of the lone conquering hero. 

While no one is immune from this type of social conditioning, female-identified and non-binary people tend to be targeted the most by this propaganda. Dr. Erin discusses caregiver burnout, the gender roles we perpetuate that we aren’t even aware of. Dr. Kristen points out the hypocrisy of American culture demanding we be individualistic while also telling us not to trust ourselves and the emotional bonds that are formed when we ask for help. 

We are not beholden to the stories our culture creates for us. With the tiny changes we make with each new day, we have the chance to write our own.

Quotes
“There are shades of this in other cultures all over the world, we are never going to say that America is the only culture that has burnout ever because that’s a lie that someone would use to sell more books and that’s not who we are. But what we will say is there’s a specific flavor of it here that’s so tied to the wellness industrial complex and the process of making money for other people that we need to call that out.” (10:25 | Dr. Kristen Donnelly) “How are we not supposed to burn out? We are supposed to burn out because that’s what the culture wants us to do. It wants us to produce until we can’t anymore. It wants us to make, it wants us to do, until we can’t anymore.” (12:12 | Dr. Erin Hinson) “America just thinks the myth of the individual hardworking hero is the archetype we should all live up to, and not only is it a lie, but it kills a lot of us every year.” (14:03 | Dr. Kristen Donnelly) “We are all just figuring it out as we go along and we can ask for help. We have to, because none of us know what we’re doing.” (38:04 | Dr. Kristen Donnelly)“I should figure it out, because I can. I should do it by myself because I don’t want to be a bother. That’s my thing. I don’t want to bother anybody. Everybody else is stressed out; everybody else is busy. I don’t want to be stressful, I don’t want to be a bother. I didn’t realize how deeply ingrained that was until we wrote this book.” (44:33 | Dr. Erin Hinson)
Links
Connect with Dr. Kristen Donnelly & Dr. Erin Hinson:
https://www.abbey-research.com
http://www.instagram.com/abbeyresearch
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristendonnellyphd
https://www.linkedin.com/in/erinhinsonphd

Connect with Cait:
Initial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcait
Initial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahv

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

“You’re going to have to surrender and have patience and be ready and willing to be annoyed.” On today’s episode of FRIED, Sarah Vosen and Cait review some of the common reasons why your burnout recovery may not be working, or not working as fast as you’d like. First off—you may be overdoing it, which is the exact kind of perfectionistic approach that burned you out in the first place. You have to be open to doing things differently and going at a slower pace than you may be used to. If you’re expecting to make progress using the usual self-care tricks on Instagram and TikTok, you’re in for disappointment. Instead, Cait and Sarah will share with you what will actually get you back on track to the other side of burnout.

Burnout recovery is a convalescent period. Your environment—physical, home, work, family, and relationships— can make or break your process. Sarah and Cait will explain how to put yourself first, why treating yourself in the smallest ways makes a world of difference, and why you shouldn’t do this alone. Sarah will share the physiological change that she describes as “miraculous” and that sped up her recovery journey overnight, and reveal the emotional state that has recently been determined to be worse for your health than smoking. 

You have to believe there is another, better life waiting for you once you recover from burnout. Join Cait and Sarah as they help you remove the obstacles that may be blocking your path. 

Quotes

“The recovery mode is a healing process. There’s a lot of repair that needs to occur to your body, mind, and spirit in the very beginning. You have to basically convalesce. That’s a tough one to go from running on adrenaline to convalescing. So it’s going to feel like shit, and it’s going to be awkward, and you’re not going to like it and you might not be able to do it at first.” (7:14 | Sarah Vosen and Cait Donovan) “It’s too big of a jump. You go from not having yourself in the equation of your life to trying to be Number 1 in your life? It’s too much change at one time. There’s too much guilt involved in that, there’s too much fear of disappointing all those people you’ve been trying to help for all those years. You’re worried they’re all going to turn on you and so there’s all this negative reinforcement in your mind about giving yourself what you need.” (9:58 | Sarah Vosen)“Small environmental changes, you might not think they matter that much, but they are critical.” (20:56 | Cait Donovan)“We talked about ‘other care.’ Sometimes you have to outsource some of this—and not just coaching and therapy—the physical care of your body has to be outsourced to someone.” (28:31 | Cait Donovan)“Loneliness increases your risk of mortality by 40 percent. I could not believe that statistic when I heard it. Loneliness is now considered more detrimental than smoking.” (31:28 | Sarah Vosen) “Recovery requires taking off the blinders or having someone support you who doesn’t have blinders on who says, ‘Oh, no. There’s a world of possibility for you. Let me offer you an exit pathway from this life with blinders on to one that actually works for you.’” (36:02 | Sarah Vosen) 
Links
Connect with Cait:
Initial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcait
Initial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahv

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

“I’m in recovery from recovery,” explains Colleen Kachmann, Certified Master Life and Recovery Coach who joins the podcast to share her story of dealing with alcohol and burnout, and give new insight into the current understanding of and attitude toward addiction. For years, while playing the role of perfect mother, wife, career woman and volunteer, Colleen was also a self-described heavy day drinker. After joining Alcoholics Anonymous she found herself “indoctrinated” into believing that she was powerless over alcohol. An incident at a family dinner led to the realization that actually, we are all in control of ourselves and our lives. Through self-directed neuroplasticity and nervous system regulation, we can change the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. She has since founded “Recover with Colleen” where she teaches women who are “lost in the weeds” with alcohol to pursue mental health, happiness and a connection with their power and purpose rather than sobriety. 

On today’s episode of FRIED, she’ll describe what she calls “emotional sobriety.” She’ll explain how to develop a growth mindset, break out of victim mentality and learn to stop leading with “I can’t.” She’ll reveal what we’re really afraid of when we start to think of the worst-case scenario in the face of making change and what happens when we deal with “what is” instead of “what if.” 

It’s not about the alcohol, Colleen explains. Join today’s discussion to take the first step toward standing in your power. 

Quotes
“I raised my children, I taught hot yoga, I taught aerobics, I was a health coach, I was all the things—I volunteered, I worked, I was a good ex-wife and a good new wife and all the things to all the people. So, you can see burnout coming there because I was very perfectionistic about my life. And I had this idea that I was getting away with my drinking.” (4:36 | Colleen Kachmann) “I became a perfect sober person. I was still playing the alcohol game. My life revolved around the topic of alcohol, but I had to switch teams. Now I’m team sober.” (7:09 | Colleen Kachmann)“I believe that when we realize that everything we do is actually a choice, now we can choose from a place of power.” (16:57 | Colleen Kachmann) “We don’t have to make our kids [lives] better. I think the truth underneath that story is we’ve lost ourselves in our kids, it’s been easier to just do the things for everybody else because we can hold our breath longer, and, ‘Oh, look, here’s a bottle of wine. So, I’ll just exchange my needs for some drink tickets, and shut the hell up. I can do that, just give me another drink.’” (28:08 | Colleen Kachmann)“We think we’re scared of having to live in an apartment after we get the divorce from the big house, or that we can’t do things. But actually you’re afraid of the story you’re going to tell yourself, that you’re starting over, that you failed, that you just lost your whole life or everything was meaningless behind you and you’ve wasted your time. It’s those stories that we’re afraid of.” (31:08 | Colleen Kachmann) 
Links
Connect with Colleen Kachmann:
https://recoverwithcolleen.com/
https://www.instagram.com/recoverwithcolleen/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleenkachmann/ https://recoverwithcolleen.com/accelerated-recovery-masterclass/6


Connect with Cait:
Initial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcait
Initial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahv

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

“Why is it that two people can be in the same exact environment, at the same job, and one person burns out and another person doesn’t?” And not only does that other person not burn out, they thrive?” Well, as it turns out, just like everyone needs a certain amount of sun protection factor (SPF) to protect them from the harmful effects of the sun, so does everyone have their own BPF—burnout protection factor. On today’s solo episode of FRIED, Cait explains how we can build up our own BPFs within the six burnout factors— Work, Self, Health, Family, Overall Culture and Environment. 

For example, a BPF in the category of work would be feeling like you are well-sourced and well-supported. She’ll share why being in nature, having a regular sleep schedule, and fixing those little things around the house that you put off all do wonders for building up your protection factors. She’ll also explain the importance of sincere communication between family members and why what we think are our protection factors are very often our risk factors. 

By building your protection factor against burnout, you will find you have more to offer the world. By lifting yourself up, you also lift up those around you, and, ultimately, your community. 

Quotes
“Why is it that two people can be in the same exact environment, at the same job, and one person burns out and another person doesn’t? And not only does that other person not burn out, they thrive.” (2:09 | Caitlin Donovan) “For some reason, those of us who need more burnout protection factors, seem to think we don’t need any protection from anything ever at all and we can do everything ourselves and if we’re just perfect then we’ll be fine. We think that perfectionism and people-pleasing are our burnout protection factors, but in fact, they are burnout risk factors. They create more vulnerability for us.” (6:02 | Caitlin Donovan) “There is zero judgment involved in this. It’s the same as SPF: some people need 4, some people need 50. It’s just your build. It’s fine.” (7:49 | Caitlin Donovan)“During those times when you are sacrificing for something or putting up with something that you are not willing to change, you need to up your BPFs to balance it out.” (17:55 | Caitlin Donovan)
Links
https://www.friedtheburnoutpodcast.com/post/julie-menanno-secure-love-attachment-needs-burnout-and-your-relationships-with-everything

https://www.friedtheburnoutpodcast.com/post/straightfromcait-burnout-risk-factors-a-holistic-view

https://www.friedtheburnoutpodcast.com/post/straightfromcait-start-your-burnout-recovery-by-taking-the-good-plate

Connect with Cait:
Initial Call with Cait: bit.ly/callcait
Initial Call with Sarah: bit.ly/callsarahv

Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm