Dr. Anthony Lilles - Discerning Hearts Catholic Podcasts Dr. Anthony Lilles with Kris McGregor

Extraordinary Mystical Phenomenon – The Life of St. Teresa of Avila – Beginning to Pray with Dr. Anthony Lilles

Dr. Anthony Lilles and Kris McGregor discuss locutions and the experiences of St. Teresa of Avila. They explain that locutions, or extraordinary mystical phenomena, are more common than people realize but are unnecessary for salvation. Dr. Lilles points out that these experiences don’t necessarily reflect a person’s spiritual maturity and can be both helpful and potentially misleading. He provides examples of individuals who misinterpreted their experiences and warns against seeking such phenomena for the sake of bypassing the obedience of faith. They go into different types of locutions, emphasizing the importance of discernment and testing these experiences.

Highlighting the transformative power of genuine locutions, which bring clarity, freedom, and strength, helps us live a more aligned life with God’s will.



For more episodes in this series: The Life of St. Teresa of Avila; with Dr. Anthony Lilles

For an audio version of the book:  “The Life of St. Teresa of Jesus” by St. Teresa of Avila

For other audio recordings of various spiritual classics, you can visit the Discerning Hearts Spiritual Classics page.





Discerning Hearts reflection questions for this episode:



* Understanding Locutions: How would you explain the concept of locutions and their significance in Catholic spirituality?

* Discernment and Spiritual Maturity: What insights does Dr. Anthony Lilles offer regarding the relationship between locutions and spiritual maturity? How does this challenge common misconceptions?

* Distinguishing Genuine Experiences: Based on the discussion, how can one discern between authentic locutions and misleading experiences? What criteria or signs did the speakers mention?

* Responsiveness to Divine Guidance: Reflect on the importance of being receptive to divine guidance in one’s spiritual journey. How can individuals cultivate openness to hearing God’s voice?

* Role of Spiritual Direction: How does this episode highlight the significance of spiritual direction in navigating mystical experiences? What role does accountability and guidance play in discernment?

* Integration with Scripture: Discuss the relationship between locutions and scriptural grounding. How can individuals align their experiences with biblical principles and teachings?

* Personal Reflections on Prayer: Consider your own prayer life. Have you ever experienced moments of perceived divine inspiration? How do these experiences shape your faith and actions?





An excerpt from Chapter 25, discussed in this episode:

“It will be as well, I think, to explain these locutions of God, and to describe what the soul feels when it receives them, in order that you, my father, may understand the matter; for ever since that time of which I am speaking, when our Lord granted me that grace, it has been an ordinary occurrence until now, as will appear by what I have yet to say.

The words are very distinctly formed; but by the bodily ear they are not heard. They are, however, much more clearly understood than they would be if they were heard by the ear. It is impossible not to understand them,

The Nature of Spiritual Direction – The Life of St. Teresa of Avila – Beginning to Pray with Dr. Anthony Lilles

Dr. Anthony Lilles and Kris McGregor delve into the topic of spiritual direction, using insights from the experiences of St. Teresa of Avila. The significance of spiritual guidance and the challenges that can arise when seeking direction for one’s spiritual life, the importance of deep listening and discernment in spiritual direction, all highlighting the need for directors to recognize the work of the Holy Spirit in individuals’ lives.

Through the example of St. Teresa of Avila, they illustrate how effective spiritual direction can lead to greater spiritual freedom and growth, and provide practical advice for those seeking spiritual guidance.





For more episodes in this series: The Life of St. Teresa of Avila; with Dr. Anthony Lilles

For an audio version of the book  “The Life of St. Teresa of Jesus” by St. Teresa of Avila

For other audio recordings of various spiritual classics, you can visit the Discerning Hearts Spiritual Classics page.



Discerning Hearts reflection questions for this episode:



* Understanding Spiritual Direction: How does this episode deepen your understanding of the role of spiritual direction in the Catholic faith?

* Importance of Deep Listening: Reflect on the significance of deep listening in the context of spiritual direction. How can deep listening enhance the effectiveness of spiritual guidance?

* Recognizing the Work of the Holy Spirit: Discuss the importance of recognizing the work of the Holy Spirit in individuals’ lives during spiritual direction. How can spiritual directors cultivate the ability to discern the movements of the Holy Spirit?

* Learning from Saint Teresa of Avila: What insights can we glean from the experiences of Saint Teresa of Avila regarding spiritual direction? How does her journey exemplify the principles discussed in the podcast?

* Seeking Spiritual Guidance: Reflect on the practical advice provided in the episode for those seeking spiritual guidance. How can individuals discern the right spiritual director or resources for their spiritual journey?

* Fostering Spiritual Freedom and Growth: Explore how effective spiritual direction can lead to greater spiritual freedom and growth. How does this align with your own experiences or aspirations in your spiritual life?

* Utilizing Online Resources: Consider the role of online resources like Discerning Hearts in providing spiritual guidance. How can these resources complement traditional forms of spiritual direction in today’s digital age?

* Application in Personal Spiritual Life: Reflect on how the insights shared in the podcast can be applied to your own spiritual life. What steps can you take to deepen your spiritual journey and seek guidance in your relationship with God?





An excerpt from Chapter 23, discussed in this episode:

“But if I was a little distracted, I began to be afraid, and to imagine that perhaps it was Satan that suspended my understanding, making me think it to be good, in order to withdraw me from mental prayer, hinder my meditation on the Passion, and debar me the use of my understanding: this seemed to me,

Episode 20 – “Heaven in Faith”  Day 10 Prayer 2  – “A praise of glory is a soul that lives in God”

Dr. Anthony Lilles and Kris McGregor explore St. Elizabeth of the Trinity’s concept of becoming a “praise of glory” for the Holy Trinity; surrendering completely to God’s will, allowing the Holy Spirit to transform one’s soul into a reflection of God’s love and glory. This transformation involves living in pure love, silence, and faith, gazing upon God and allowing Him to radiate through oneself.

True prayer is not about achieving mental states or experiences but about surrendering to Christ and allowing His life to animate one’s own; asking for intercession to deepen one’s prayer life and encounter with God and cultivating a deep, intimate relationship with Christ, allowing Him to lead one to the depths of prayer and spiritual growth.





From “Heaven in Faith: Day 10 Prayer 2”:

“We have been predestined by the decree of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we may be the praise of His glory.”

It is St. Paul who tells us this, St. Paul who was instructed by God Himself. How do we realize this great dream of the Heart of our God, this immutable will for our souls? In a word, how do we correspond to our vocation and become perfect Praises of Glory of the Most Holy Trinity?

“In Heaven” each soul is a praise of glory of the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, for each soul is established in pure love and “lives no longer its own life, but the life of God.” Then it knows Him, St. Paul says, as it is known by Him. In other words “its intellect is the intellect of God, its will the will of God, its love the very love of God. In reality it is the Spirit of love and of strength who transforms the soul, for to Him it has been given to supply what is lacking to the soul,” as St. Paul says again. “He works in it this glorious transformation.” St. John of the Cross affirms that “the soul surrendered to love, through the strength of the Holy Spirit, is not far from being raised to the degree of which we have just spoken,”180 even here below! This is what I call a perfect praise of glory!

A praise of glory is a soul that lives in God, that loves Him with a pure and disinterested love, without seeking itself in the sweetness of this love; that loves Him beyond all His gifts and even though it would not have received anything from Him, it desires the good of the Object thus loved. Now how do we effectively desire and will good to God if not in accomplishing His will since this will orders everything for His greater glory? Thus the soul must surrender itself to this will completely, passionately, so as to will nothing else but what God wills.

A praise of glory is a soul of silence that remains like a lyre under the mysterious touch of the Holy Spirit so that He may draw from it divine harmonies; it knows that suffering is a string that produces still more beautiful sounds; so it loves to see this string on its instrument that it may more delightfully move the Heart of its God.

A praise of glory is a soul that gazes on God in faith and simplicity; it is a reflector of all that He is; it is like a bottomless abyss into which He can flow and expand; it is also like a crystal through which He can radiate and contemplate all His perfections and His own splendor. A soul which thus permits the divine Being to satisfy in itself His need to communicate “all that He is and all that He has,” is in reality the praise of glory of all His gifts.

Finally, a praise of glory is one who is always giving thanks. Each of her acts, her movements, her thoughts, her aspirations, at the same time that they are rooting her more deeply in love, are like an echo of the eternal Sanctus.

In the Heaven of glory the blessed have no rest “day or night, saying: Holy, holy,

Episode 19 – “Heaven in Faith”  Day 10 Prayer 1  – “If you knew the gift of God”

Dr. Anthony Lilles and Kris McGregor reflect on the teachings of Elizabeth, emphasizing the importance of not returning to “life as normal” after the retreat but instead allowing it to initiate a new beginning marked by a deeper connection with God by using the example of Mary, highlighting her profound surrender to God’s will and her unwavering trust, even in the face of uncertainty and challenges.

Through St. Elizabeth’s writings, Dr. Lilles explores the idea that true devotion to Christ is not an escape from responsibilities or difficulties but rather an empowerment to face them with grace and love. Mary’s life becomes a model for interior souls who seek to nurture the presence of God within them and radiate His love outwardly, even in the midst of daily tasks and challenges.

With the necessity of humility and trust in the spiritual journey, contrasting it with the tendency to manipulate spirituality for personal gain or control. As well as the importance of embracing God’s presence fully, allowing it to transform one’s life and perspective, leading to a deeper understanding of God’s love and a willingness to surrender completely to His will; embracing a contemplative way of life, rooted in prayer and trust in God, which leads to a profound transformation of the self and enables one to become a beacon of God’s love and compassion for others.



From “Heaven in Faith: Day 10 Prayer 1”:

“Si scires donum Dei. . . .” “If you knew the gift of God,” Christ said one evening to the Samaritan woman. But what is this gift of God if not Himself? And, the beloved disciple tells us: “He came to His own and His own did not accept Him.” St. John the Baptist could still say to many souls these words of reproach: “There is one in the midst of you, ‘in you,’ whom you do not know.”

“If you knew the gift of God. . . .” There is one who knew this gift of God, one who did not lose one particle of it, one who was so pure, so luminous that she seemed to be the Light itself: “Speculum justitiae.” One whose life was so simple, so lost in God that there is hardly anything we can say about it.

“Virgo fidelis”: that is, Faithful Virgin, “who kept all these things in her heart.” She remained so little, so recollected in God’s presence, in the seclusion of the temple, that she drew down upon herself the delight of the Holy Trinity: “Because He has looked upon the lowliness of His servant, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed!” The Father bending down to this beautiful creature, who was so unaware of her own beauty, willed that she be the Mother in time of Him whose Father He is in eternity. Then the Spirit of love who presides over all of God’s works came upon her; the Virgin said her fiat: “Behold the servant of the Lord, be it done to me according to Your word,” and the greatest of mysteries was accomplished. By the descent of the Word in her, Mary became forever God’s prey.

It seems to me that the attitude of the Virgin during the months that elapsed between the Annunciation and the Nativity is the model for interior souls, those whom God has chosen to live within, in the depths of the bottomless abyss. In what peace, in what recollection Mary lent herself to everything she did! How even the most trivial things were divinized by her! For through it all the Virgin remained the adorer of the gift of God! This did not prevent her from spending herself outwardly when it was a matter of charity; the Gospel tells us that Mary went in haste to the mountains of Judea to visit her cousin Elizabeth. Never did the ineffable vision that she contemplated within herself in any way diminish her outward charity. For, a pious author says, if contemplation “continues towards praise and towards the eternity of its Lord,

Episode 18 – “Heaven in Faith”  Day 9 Prayer 2  – “God who is rich in mercy, impelled by His exceeding love, even when we were dead because of our sins, has brought us back to life in Christ Jesus”

Dr. Anthony Lilles and Kris McGregor discussing the significance of sin and divine mercy in the context of prayer, based on the teachings of St. Elizabeth of the Trinity of the transformative power of confession, where sins are entrusted to God and forgiven through Christ’s sacrifice. Reminding us of the importance of humility, true conversion, and reliance on God alone; as well as the connection between suffering and humility in the spiritual life and suffering can deepen one’s reliance on God and lead to a restoration of blessings in a more profound way.



From “Heaven in Faith: Day 9 Prayer 2”:

“God who is rich in mercy, impelled by His exceeding love, even when we were dead because of our sins, has brought us back to life in Christ Jesus. . . .” “Because all have sinned and have need of the glory of God, they are justified freely by His grace, through the redemption which is in Christ, whom God has set forth as a propitiation for sins, showing both that He is just and that He makes just him who has faith in Him” (St. Paul).

“Sin is such a terrifying evil that in order to seek any good whatsoever, or to avoid any evil whatsoever, no sin should be committed.” “Now we have committed very many.” How can we keep from “fainting in adoration when we plunge into the abyss of mercy and the eyes of our soul are fixed upon this fact: God has taken away our sins.” He said so Himself: “I will blot out all their iniquities and I will no longer remember their sins.”

“The Lord, in His mercy, willed to turn our sins against themselves to our advantage; He found a way to make them useful for us, to convert them in our hands into a means of salvation. But do not let this diminish in any way our horror of sinning, nor our sorrow for having sinned. But our sins” “have become a source of humility for us.”

When the soul “considers deep within itself, its eyes burning with love, the immensity of God, His fidelity, the proofs of His love, His favors which can add nothing to His happiness; then, looking at itself it sees its crimes against this immense Lord, it turns to its own center with such self-contempt that it does not know how it can endure its horror.” “The best thing for it to do is to complain to God, its Friend, of the strength of its self-love which betrays it by not letting it place itself as low as it would wish. It resigns itself to the will of God, and in self-abnegation, finds true, invincible, and perfect peace, which nothing can disturb. For it has plunged into such a deep abyss that no one will seek it there.”

“If anyone should affirm to me that to find the bottom of the abyss is to be immersed in humility, I would not contradict him. However, it seems to me that to be plunged into humility is to be plunged into God, for God is the bottom of the abyss. That is why humility, like charity, is always capable of increasing.” “Since a humble heart is the vessel needed, the vessel capable of containing the grace God wants to pour into it,” let us be “humble.” “The humble can never rank God high enough nor themselves low enough. But here is the wonder: their weakness turns into wisdom, and the imperfection of their acts, always insufficient in their eyes, will be the greatest delight of their life. Whoever possesses humility has no need of many words to be instructed; God tells him more things than he can learn; such was the case with the Lord’s disciples.”

Elizabeth of the Trinity. The Complete Works of Elizabeth of the Trinity, vol. 1 (featuring a General Introduction and Major Spiritual Writings) (Elizabeth of the Trinity Complete Work) (pp. 162-163). ICS Publications. Kindle Edition.

Stages of Spiritual Growth – The Life of St. Teresa of Avila – Beginning to Pray with Dr. Anthony Lilles

Dr. Anthony Lilles and Kris McGregor explore St. Teresa of Ávila’s stages of prayer, from active meditation to mystical contemplation. Using metaphors of drawing water from a well and receiving a spark of fire from God, Dr. Lilles illustrates the journey from effortful prayer to receptive transformation, spiritual maturity, and union with God; hinting at discussions on mystical phenomena in Teresa’s life and her unwavering commitment to love and mission in the Church.





For more episodes in this series: The Life of St. Teresa of Avila; with Dr. Anthony Lilles

For an audio version of the book  “The Life of St. Teresa of Jesus” by St. Teresa of Avila

For other audio recordings of various spiritual classics, you can visit the Discerning Hearts Spiritual Classics page.



Discerning Hearts reflection questions for this episode:



* Understanding St. Teresa’s Stages of Prayer: How do St. Teresa of Ávila’s stages of prayer, from active meditation to mystical contemplation, resonate with your own spiritual journey?

* Metaphors of Water and Fire: Reflect on the metaphors of drawing water from a well and receiving a spark of fire from God. How do these images deepen your understanding of prayer as both effortful and receptive?

* Recollection and Spiritual Maturity: Consider the concept of recollection and its significance in deepening one’s prayer life. How can cultivating recollection lead to spiritual maturity and a closer union with God?

* Embracing Spiritual Dryness: St. Teresa speaks of embracing times of spiritual dryness and trusting in God’s timing. How do you navigate periods of spiritual aridity in your own life, and how does St. Teresa’s wisdom inform your approach?

* Love and Mission in the Church: Reflect on St. Teresa’s unwavering commitment to love and mission within the Church, even amidst profound experiences of prayer. How can her example inspire you to integrate contemplation with active service and mission?





An excerpt from Chapter 11, discussed in this episode:

“Of those who are beginners in prayer, we may say, that they are those who draw the water up out of the well—a process which, as I have said, is very laborious; for they must be wearied in keeping the senses recollected, and this is a great labour, because the senses have been hitherto accustomed to distractions. It is necessary for beginners to accustom themselves to disregard what they hear or see, and to put it away from them during the time of prayer; they must be alone, and in retirement think over their past life. Though all must do this many times, beginners as well as those more advanced; all, however, must not do so equally, as I shall show hereafter. Beginners at first suffer much, because they are not convinced that they are penitent for their sins; and yet they are, because they are so sincerely resolved on serving God. They must strive to meditate on the life of Christ, and the understanding is wearied thereby. Thus far we can advance of ourselves—that is, by the grace of God—for without that, as every one knows, we never can have one good thought.