ISF Podcast Information Security Forum Podcast
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The ISF Podcast brings you cutting-edge conversation, tailored to CISOs, CTOs, CROs, and other global security pros. In every episode of the ISF Podcast, Chief Executive, Steve Durbin speaks with rule-breakers, collaborators, culture builders, and business creatives who manage their enterprise with vision, transparency, authenticity, and integrity. From the Information Security Forum, the leading authority on cyber, information security, and risk management.
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Tali Sharot - Changing Behaviours: Why facts alone don't work
Today’s episode was recorded at ISF’s 2023 Congress in Rotterdam. Steve sat down with Tali Sharot, professor of neuroscience at University College London, to talk about her fascinating research on optimism bias. Tali offers fresh, evidence-based ideas on effective communication for security leaders seeking to present their message to their board and raise cyber awareness within the organisation.
Key Takeaways:
1. Innately, the brain is an optimist.
2. Implications for the business community.
3. Present bias means that people care more about now than the future.
4. Data is key, and pairing anecdotes with data can be more effective.
Tune in to hear more about:
1. Sharot’s research about how emotion affects memory (0:28)
2. Optimism bias has implications for the way we evaluate risk (4:25)
3. Sharot considers present bias and how it shows up in organisations (9:39)
4. Why storytelling is so effective when paired with data (15:30)
Standout Quotes:
1. “It turns out that in behavioral economics, there was quite a lot of research about this thing called the optimism bias, which is our tendency to imagine the future as better than the past, than the present. And that's exactly what I was seeing in this experiment. And that was really the first experiment that I did looking at what goes on inside the brain that causes us to have these kind of rose-colored glasses on when we think about the future.” -Tali Sharot
2. “What we find again and again is that people underestimate the risk. And that's, of course, a problem. And it's not just underestimating risk. People also underestimate how long projects will take to complete, how much it would cost, underestimating budgets. All these are related to this phenomena of the optimism bias. And so it's really difficult to try to convince people that their estimate is incorrect. Because what we found is that if you give people information to try to correct their estimate, and you tell them actually, it's much worse than what you thought, your risk is much higher than what you're thinking, people don't take that information and change their belief to the extent that they should. They do learn a little bit, but not enough … However, if you tell them actually, you don't have as much risk as you think, you're in a great position, then they learn really quickly.” -Tali Sharot
3. “The immediacy is quite important, because we have what's called a present bias. We care more about the now than the future. In general, even if we're not aware of that.” -Tali Sharot
4. “And what stories do, they do a few things. First of all, we're more likely to attend to stories, right to listen, they're more interesting, they're more colorful, they're more detailed, we're more likely to remember them, partially because they usually elicit more emotion than just the data. So it's good to pair the two, to have the anecdote that kind of illustrates the data that you already have in hand.” -Tali Sharot
Mentioned in this episode:
Human-centred Security: Positively influencing security behaviour
ISF Analyst Insight Podcast
books by Tali Sharot
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From the Information Security Forum, the leading authority on cyber, information security, and risk management. -
Nina Schick - The Future of Information Integrity
This week, we’ve got another fascinating conversation recorded at the 2023 ISF Congress in Rotterdam. This time, Steve speaks with generative AI expert Nina Schick. Nina and Steve discuss how AI, along with other technological trends that are evolving at exponential speed, are shaping both geopolitics and individual lives.
Key Takeaways:
1. Generative AI is reshaping the geopolitical landscape.
2. Educating ourselves and others about the implications of quickly evolving tech in global affairs.
3. Industries struggling to regulate exponential technology.
4. There are more questions than answers as we look to the future in tech.
Tune in to hear more about:
1. AI’s geopolitical impacts (3:13)
2. Learning about how tech is impacting global affairs (9:53)
3. Regulation challenges (11:55)
4. Nina Shick’s take on the economics of generative AI (16:27)
Standout Quotes:
1. “As the oil economies of Saudi Arabia and UAE seek to diversify away from oil and energy, one of the things that they're doing is trying to become very high tech economies when artificial intelligence is absolutely leading the way with these strategies. And there's so much money going to be invested in the Gulf in the coming decade when it comes to artificial intelligence. Again, even though these are relatively small countries, they are perhaps going to punch above their weight when it comes to power that is harnessed by artificial intelligence. And that means in a military sense, in an economic sense, and ultimately, you know, a geopolitical sense.” -Nina Schick
2. “I think the harder thing also are the non technical solutions – you know, education, literacy – how do people get upskilled in terms of understanding the new capabilities of artificial intelligence and how they will be deployed in their respective domains? So I think it's not only that there are technical solutions, there are also societal and learning solutions which perhaps we're going to have to get on top of very, very quickly.” -Nina Schick
3. “Regulators have to work with industry. There's no way they can do this themselves. And already in many of the kind of more promising areas with dealing with some of the challenges, such as information integrity, when you come to questions like provenance, you see industry championing the way and supporting regulators.” -Nina Schick
4. “Will there be economic value associated with AI? I think, absolutely. But the question is, how's that going to be distributed? And is it going to be monopolized? So that's going to happen with regards to the tech giants, who I think will become very, very, very powerful. I think this will continue to be a priority of utmost importance to governments. I think this challenge, or this kind of race between China and the US with regards to artificial intelligence will continue to play out. I think the Middle East is going to become a strong contender. And I suspect Europe might fall behind a little bit … And actually, I think that this technology is also going to be in the hands of millions of people.” -Nina Schick
Mentioned in this episode:
Threat Horizon 2024: the Disintegration of Trust
ISF Analyst Insight Podcast
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From the Information Security Forum, the leading authority on cyber, information security, and risk management. -
Peter Hinssen - The Never Normal
This week, we have a rare repeat guest on the podcast. Listeners may remember innovator and thought leader Peter Hinssen from the 2019 ISF Congress in Dublin. We had him back this year at ISF’s 2023 Congress in Rotterdam. He and Steve had a chance to talk about the future of work post-pandemic. Their conversation offers lots of practical tips for leaders working to prevent workforce burnout and how boards can approach adopting new technologies like AI.
Key Takeaways:
1. COVID has made lasting impacts on the future of work.
2. Annual budgets and other commonly used business practices are in the process of evolving into ones that are more malleable and adaptive.
3. Companies will need to reinvent themselves to thrive in the new “never normal.”
4. With the rise of AI and large language models, organisations do have a lot of work ahead.
Tune in to hear more about:
1. COVID’s impact on the future of work (1:40)
2. Sunsetting pre-pandemic business norms while imagining new ones (2:47)
3. Companies in every sector will be reinventing themselves in order to thrive in the new “never normal.” (6:33)
4. As AI and large language models are integrated into global business, what’s next for business leaders? (14:12)
Standout Quotes:
1. “One of the good things I think that we've gotten back from COVID or that we've retained from COVID is that I think the acceleration of the future of work has really happened. I think we're now seeing companies that clearly see that the way we did HR, employment, and work pre pandemic, we can't just hope that that is going to come back. And I think that is a fundamental change that I think was really something that the pandemic helped us with.” -Peter Hinssen
2. “But you know, that stronghold, that idea, that framework of an annual budget that we've held on to for such a long time is very difficult to actually give up. But I think it's exciting, because I think in this never normal, we're going to see new mechanisms and new ideas and new concepts and new governance ideas that are going to come to fruition. But at this moment, we're still very much in that transition.” -Peter Hinssen
3. “I really believe after a decade of unicorn applause, we're now going to have a decade of potential phoenixes out there. And I think a big part as a leader in such a phoenix transformation is to actually give your workforce, your people that sense of we're going to do this together.” -Peter Hinssen
4. “We're going to have to deal with that governance of content, unstructured flows, and that's a whole new kettle of fish that we have to understand. New technologies, new mechanisms, new ways of dealing with that. And I think it's going to open up a huge opportunity in terms of thinking about risk and thinking about security in that context. So I don't think you can ignore this. This is the biggest thing that I have ever seen in 30 years in IT. And if you're not on top of this, you're gonna be behind … And I think honestly, more and more boards are going to need to figure out how to build the skills and the mechanisms and the place to discuss these things that are not just compliance with the tsunami, but also the innovations that you cannot afford to miss. And I think, honestly, that's going to change the dialogue in the board quite a bit.” -Peter Hinssen
Mentioned in this episode:
Remote Working and Cyber Risk
Threat Horizon 2025: Scenarios for an uncertain future - full report (ISFLIve)
ISF Analyst Insight Podcast
The Phoenix and the Unicorn
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From the Information Security Forum, the leading authority on cyber, information security, and risk management. -
Christy Pretzinger - Leadership Empathy and the Cultural Balance Sheet
Today, Steve is in conversation with Christy Pretzinger, founder, president and CEO of WriterGirl. Over the past 20 years, Christy has grown the company from a modest freelance writing business into a healthcare content consultancy. She speaks with Steve about some of the practical tools she has implemented in order to grow the company’s culture, the role of leadership in training and retaining emotionally intelligent employees, and the impact her focus as a leader on the company’s cultural balance sheet has had on their financial balance sheet.
March 8th is International Women’s Day and we want to mark the occasion and make sure you haven’t missed our many valuable episodes with Steve in conversation with women in leadership. So we’ve put together a specially curated playlist featuring the best of women in leadership, and we want to give you special access. All we ask in return is this: just rate and review the ISF podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, send a screenshot of that rating and review to tavia.gilbert@securityforum.org, and I’ll send you back special access to the curated playlist.
Key Takeaways:
Leaders should track their cultural balance sheet just as they watch their financial balance sheet.
A leader who is intentional about culture increases employee retention.
Helping employees grow in emotional intelligence as the company grows can make work more productive and rewarding for everyone, especially clients.
Technology is never the answer to a people problem, and it will never replace human connection.
Tune in to hear more about:
1. Pretzinger’s story of growing her business (1:45)
2. The cultural balance sheet and how leaders can create a corporate culture based on emotional intelligence (2:40)
3. Preventing employee turnover (9:09)
4. Implementing new technological solutions with sensitivity to employee experience and client needs (11:26)
5. The need for human connection in business even was we advance technologically (15:46)
6. Building a team that works from home (16:34)
7. Intentionality when building culture (17:10)
Standout Quotes:
1. “Anyone who looks at a balance sheet knows that employee turnover is a hidden cost. It doesn't show up on a balance sheet. And I can count on one hand the number of people that have left our organization. And in fact, I don't even need the whole hand. And many people who leave continue to work with us on a contracted basis, so there is very, very little turnover. And even our younger employees expressed interest in retiring from this organization, which is really great.” - Christy Pretzinger
2. “We had everybody do a day-long workshop. And it was incredibly revealing. It took a lot of time. And it was very … I guess the things that I look for when we do these things are what Brené talks about is what every human wants is love and belonging. They want love and belonging, and they want to know that they matter.” - Christy Pretzinger
3. “About retention: I think about, obviously, a hidden cost on the balance sheet. But what I think about too, is all of that intellectual property walking out your door. You know, you've got ,we have people who have been here, I think, my longest employee is 13 years, I think. She started right after she got married, and now she has five kids. So I've literally watched her grow up. If she walked out that door, and we were so much smaller, she literally built the sales department and built the CRM tool, and still worked very heavily in contributing to that — if she walked out the door, it would be devastating. But yet, that's not going to show up on a balance sheet. .” - Christy Pretzinger
4. “So I still think that there is a tremendous place for — and not only a place but a need and a yearning for true human connection. And because I own a virtual organization, I know that you can have true human connection virtually, but it does require a camera.” - Christy Pretzing -
Empowering your team: Lessons from a sports coach
Today, Steve is speaking with American football coach Randy Jackson. During his 30-year tenure coaching high school football in Texas, Randy earned a reputation for transforming struggling programs. In 2022, in a move reminiscent of Ted Lasso, he moved to Germany to coach the Potsdam Royals, and with Jackson as the offensive coordinator, the Royals went all the way to the German Bowl. When he’s not coaching football, Randy is a business consultant. Today, he and Steve talk about how he applies his experience as a football coach in the business world. They go beyond sport cliches and dig into some concrete ways leaders can build the culture of their organisation.
Key Takeaways:
1. At its inception, any organisation can benefit from building relationships and establishing a shared vision.
2. Leaders will do well to speak up frequently, reminding teams of shared aims.
3. When something goes wrong (or right!) it can be a good time to reflect, or as Randy puts it, perform an autopsy.
Tune in to hear more about:
1. Establishing a shared vision, charting a collective course. (3:50)
2. Staying vocal as a leader. (6:05)
3. Whether something goes to plan or not, an autopsy of the scenario can be a helpful way forward. (10:06)
Standout Quotes:
1. “So this is an activity I always do, and I did this in Germany, but close your eyes and then turn around three times, and then point True north. Well, I don't know how many people are in the room, but let's say I had 50. You're going to have 50 fingers pointing in all different directions. And so what we're going to do is, people will point in the same direction if you give them something to point at. And what you're in on you're in with.”” -Randy Jackson
2. “And if you'll talk about it, you can achieve it, but you can't talk about it once a week – you must talk about it. So whatever you want, I think every leader should say, here are the three things I want. You got to talk about those three things every day.” -Randy Jackson
3. “And the autopsy is about improvement, right? It's not about finger pointing, it's about trying to figure out how the collective can, if they hit that situation, again in the future, can adapt or behave differently.” -Steve Durbin
Mentioned in this episode:
Building Tomorrow’s Security Workforce
ISF Analyst Insight Podcast
Titles by Randy Jackson
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From the Information Security Forum, the leading authority on cyber, information security, and risk management. -
Mo Gawdat - Rethinking the Paradigm of Artificial and Human Intelligence
Today's installment of the ISF Podcast revisits an earlier episode published February of 2023.
In this episode, ISF CEO Steve Durbin is speaking with author and former Chief Business Officer of Google X Mo Gawdat. Mo and Steve discuss the complicated relationship humans have with technology, particularly AI, and how both individuals and businesses can navigate that wisely.
Mentioned in this episode:
ISF Analyst Insight Podcast
Read the transcript of this episode
Subscribe to the ISF Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts
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From the Information Security Forum, the leading authority on cyber, information security, and risk management