Say Know Podcast

Matt Ingrouille
Say Know Podcast Podcast

The Say Know Podcast works to bridge the gap between academic research and knowledge earned from the street; in the areas of drugs and addiction. We interview policymakers, researchers and people with lived experience. Our host, Matt Ingrouille, has been a cop for the last 12 years and uses his knowledge and experience to pull interesting, hilarious and often heart wrenching stories from our guests. The Say Know Podcast will give you insight on what is happening on the streets and what we can do as a community to make things better!

Episodes

  1. 08/04/2019

    Episode 20 - Kris Nyrop: LEADing the way

    SHOW NOTES: Kris Nyrop from Seattle, USA is the Director of Harm Reduction Practices and plays a key role in the L.E.A.D project. LEAD is a hugely successful  “Law Enforcement Assisted Diversion” program. LEAD has an innovative approach to Harm Reduction and the results are staggering. They have gathered all community resources and a Case Management Team to provide an alternative to Addiction and its criminal activities. In October of 2011, Seattle launched LEAD as a pilot project and soon neighbourhoods were demanding it to be in their communities as well.This program has had huge success in reducing crime rates, reducing health care costs, and ultimately reducing the number of people actively addicted in the USA. HIGHLIGHTS: Kris explains what LEAD is and its origins. Police were arresting the same people over and over again, many of whom were addicted. Police collaborated with community resources and created a diversion program for the repeat offender. The offender is given a 2nd option instead of jail. They can be diverted to a case management team that will do everything in their power to help the individual head towards a healthier, legal way of life. Kris and Matt talk about the fact that despite everyone collaborating were coming from different backgrounds, they could all agree that the current take on “war on drugs” simply wasn’t working. Kris explains how police could remove the barrier of another charge or arrest by offering the 2nd option of case management. If the 2nd option is requested then a case manager would physically show up to do immediate triage. They find out who the individual is, where they are staying, and what their needs are for future contact. They find out what the immediate need is of the individual, and in further meetings will develop a trusting relationship, which can take months for the deeper issues/needs to surface. Kris emphasizes on how this relationship takes time and involves many small steps. This program is Harm Reduction on a long term basis with barriers such as NOT having to be abstinent from substance abuse removed. After awhile the front line police officers began asking, “DO we need to ARREST people to get them into this program?”  Now police can make a referral to case management, which removes the barriers of repeat arrests. The Police and Case Managers meet twice a month so they can exchange info and review possible future LEAD individuals.     Kris recalls an example of success and how these success stories help continued funding. Approx. 60% of clients who utilized LEAD sought treatment or changed from illegal to legal substances. Kris and Matt briefly discuss costs related to the program and the difficulty in translating US healthcare system and dollars compared to Canadian systems. The average cost of an individual using the LEAD program was approx. $2,700 per year including dental or private treatment costs. They discuss the cost of  repeated 911 emergency calls, ambulance and expensive health costs and how this program alleviates those costs. Kris says that it is much cheaper to use the LEAD alternative than the current criminal justice system. QUOTES: “LEAD people are 58% LESS likely to repeat a criminal offence, (after using our program).” “Even before we had any evaluation results at all, residents in adjoining neighbourhoods went to the Mayor and asked why they didn’t have LEAD in their communities as well.. Neighbours demanded to have it.” “We all came from different backgrounds; the one thing we could agree on was that what we were doing - wasn’t working.” followed by “Then WHY wouldn’t we do something Different?!” “Nothing is off the table when it comes to a personal advocate. We do as much as we possibly can for them.” “56% of them had no ID, a Case Manager can definitely help with that; and having ID, makes a huge difference.” “It takes time. We are working on a long ter

    40 min
  2. 04/03/2019

    Episode 19 - Bruce Alexander

    SHOW NOTES Dr. Bruce Alexander is a highly regarded psychologist and retired professor who has years of knowledge in the area of addiction. He offers ideas of how to solve the  drug crisis that so many are facing today. Dr. Alexander had moved to Vancouver in 1970 and at that time it was in the midst of the Heroin Crisis where he met "real live junkies". He shares his findings with the Rat Park experiments: taking drug addicted rats in solitude, compared to free rats in a thriving rat park. He talks about the invisible isolation people can have and how fear can take away our critical thinking capacity. HIGHLIGHTS Bruce and Matt have a fascinating discussion of the disappearance of the Rat Park Experiments. Drug Addicted Solitary Confined rats vs free Rat Park rats and how that can or can’t relate to people. He shares his knowledge of rat babysitting, and how rats actually build their own culture and social life!  Bruce and Matt discuss the importance of  a persons identity,  even if it's a somewhat proud "junkie".  They talk about youth being raised by peers instead of parents and how that relates in gangs.  Bruce talks about the 1970 disease theory of addiction based on withdrawal symptoms and being an "irresistible drug."  They chat about how Doctors and Police now have the discretion in how to deal with addicted individuals. Police can decide to charge or not and doctors can decide to prescribe or not.  They agree that the narrative is changing, and although there are solutions that may work, people may not be ready to hear those solutions just yet. How terror can cripple critical or wise thinking. QUOTES "Everybody has to be Somebody." "BE A BAD ASS!"  " We are in the midst of a Paradigm Shift." "People who use drugs, to the degree that they hurt themselves, have a Need, and drugs fulfill that need. We’ve got to do something about where that need comes from." " The rat park makes the Isolation visible, but human cages are sometimes Invisible." " Harm Reduction is Vital." " In the 19th Century you could buy opioids in the store, called Mrs.Winslows Soothing Syrup. My prediction is we will go back to that. We can't even talk about it yet, because of the panic. It takes away our critical thinking capacity.” LINKS Bruce Alexander Homepage: (http://www.brucekalexander.com/) Canadian Research Initiative of Substance Misuse (CRISM) Prairies website: (https://crismprairies.ca/) SayKnow.org Facebook page: (https://www.facebook.com/sayknoworg) SayKnow.org Twitter feed: (https://twitter.com/SayKnowOrg) Music provided by Redbull DJ Champ, Charly Hustle: (http://www.charlyhustlemusic.com)

    51 min
  3. 19/02/2019

    Episode 18 - U of S Panel Discussion on Mental Health

    SHOW NOTES: On January 30, 2019, Matt was asked to host a panel discussion at the U of S as part of their Bell Let’s Talk day. The panel was comprised of a wide range of experiences and expertise. Becca Beattie, a community advocate with enough street cred to earn a doctorate in the field of mental health and addictions, shared parts of her life and her current advocacy project of bringing Saskatoon their first safe consumption site. Murray Drew, a professor of Animal and Poultry Science at University of Saskatchewan shared his experience of being an adult with bi-polar and ADHD, highlighting that you can be happy and successful while living with a mental health disorder. Jerin Islam a third year psychology student and member of the Bangledesh Undergrad Student Federation shared her experience as an advocate, trying to reduce the stigma of mental health within the international students communities. Kyle Schwartz is a clinical Social Worker who provided valuable information in suicide prevention and intervention. He has a passion for breaking through the stigma and the role toxic masculinity is playing. Allan Kehler is a motivational speaker with lived experience and a mental health and wellness teacher at the Saskatchewan Indian Institute of Technologies. He shared some tools that he has learned in his travels to help with his own mental health struggles. This panel was the perfect way to celebrate #bellletstalk. We were honoured to be a part of the day and for our first “live podcast” recording, it turned out great! Please SUBSCRIBE and RATE/REVIEW! LINKS: Harm Reduction Now SK Facebook Page: (https://www.facebook.com/groups/372005193547015/) Allan Kehler - Out From the Shadows: (https://www.outfromtheshadows.ca/) Canadian Research Initiative of Substance Misuse (CRISM) Prairies website: (https://crismprairies.ca/) SayKnow.org Facebook page: (https://www.facebook.com/sayknoworg) SayKnow.org Twitter feed: (https://twitter.com/SayKnowOrg) Music provided by Redbull DJ Champ, Charly Hustle: (http://www.charlyhustlemusic.com)

    1h 2m
  4. 15/01/2019

    Episode 16 - The Harm Reduction Renegade, Ann Livingston

    SHOW NOTES: Ann lives in Vancouver, about 2 blocks from Hastings and Main. She is the CoFounder of VANDU a non-profit organization that tackles Harm Reduction. She spent some time in University in her early years and is now also a devoted mother of an adult child living with a disability. She has attended thousands of AA meetings, and has powerful insight and wisdom on so many facets of addiction. HIGHLIGHTS : Ann details Vandu, that has been around of 21 years and how she became involved in the drug war. Almost everyday Vandu hosts Drug User Support Groups. She explains that drug users are the experts of their own lives. Ann explains the theory of punishing or degrading drug users and that it has no benefit.  On the opposite side, the more that drug users see a hope for the future, the more successful they are to stop using substances. She talks about the Western Aboriginal Harm Reduction Group that meets on Fridays at Vandu as well as the Salome and Naomi programs where prescription heroin is provided. She discusses BC Pivot Legal Society and shares how people on Methadone won a class action lawsuit with a $5.5 million settlement. The settlement was for people who had fees for private clinics or funds removed from welfare. Ann and Matt discuss the Vancouver Injection Study done in the United States for 22 yrs. She shares about trying to teach citizenship and observing how users shift their "using obsession" when they have something else to focus on. She identifies 3 areas within Addiction: Income,  Housing, and Social Networking. Vandu has been in the area of social networking. Ann and Matt talk about the Prescription Heroin Program , what works and what doesn't. Ann and Matt talk policing,  warrants, and mental health/ addictions. The lack of release planning and the predictability and of the sad outcome for drug users. Ann identifies areas that would be helpful in Harm Reduction.  She touches on Financial Analysis, Stimulant replacement therapy,  and understanding the commonality of Addiction. QUOTES: " People with no future use drugs recklessly, and that's what's causing the deaths. " " If they don't have somewhere to land,  how can we ever expect someone to stop using drugs?!" "People who score are the hardest working people. " "You can't keep feeding people defeat and expect them to even stay alive. " "The better drug users’ lives become,  and the more they can see a future for themselves,; the more courage they have to stop using." "People thought being punitive towards those who used, would smarten them up, help them bottom out and they'd stop. That theory is exactly wrong." "We have a simple goal, that is, to reduce the death and disease associated with using drugs." LINKS: VANDU Website: (https://www.vandu.org/) The Study to Assess Long-term Opioid Maintenance Effectiveness (SALOME): (http://www.providencehealthcare.org/salome/index.html) North American Opiate Medication Initiative (NAOMI): (http://www.providencehealthcare.org/salome/naomi-study.html) Official Say Know homepage: (http://www.sayknow.org/) Canadian Research Initiative of Substance Misuse (CRISM) Prairies website: (https://crismprairies.ca/) SayKnow.org Facebook page: (https://www.facebook.com/sayknoworgSayKnow.org) Twitter feed: (https://twitter.com/SayKnowOrg) Music provided by Redbull DJ Champ, Charly Hustle: (http://www.charlyhustlemusic.com)

    1h 6m
  5. 02/01/2019

    Episode 15 - Garth Mullins and the -40 model

    SHOW NOTES: Garth Mullins is an activist and freelancer from Vancouver. He was a former injection heroin user. He has seen far too many people lose their lives to overdose, and delivers a clear message about Safe Drug Supply being a much more concrete solution than the current harm reduction practices of safe injection sites. He lived through two drug crisis; one in the 90s when China White Heroin was prevalent; plus the current Opioid crisis that North America is facing today. He is currently preparing to launch “Crack Down”, a podcast that aims to bring science and lived experience together, this coming January. In this episode Garth and Matt navigate some tough topics like Policing, Crackdowns and Decriminalization, Possession Arrests, Harm Reduction Triage, Safe Injection Sites vs the Community, and the brilliant -40° Model. HIGHLIGHTS: Garth discusses the drug crisis in the 90’s when China White Heroin was prevalent in Vancouver and the high rate of HIV. It was difficult to get clean needles back then, where you had to turn in a dirty needle to get a clean one. He talks about the contradictions between crack downs and decriminalization. Garth states that safe injection sites wouldn’t be needed if a safe supply of clean drugs were given out. They brainstorm ideas how to change the stigmas around people struggling with addiction. Garth and Matt discuss implementing decriminalization, police stats and possession arrests. How harm reduction can sometimes create more barriers to break down. They talk about problems and solutions on how to engage with the community in regards to neighbourhood drug houses/use. Garth has a brilliant idea about creating a job opportunity to keep drug houses safe; hiring someone to monitor inside a using house with Naloxone and equipment to ensure safety. QUOTES: “We wouldn’t need a safe injection site if we gave out safe drugs.” “Decriminalization without a safe supply, is not the whole solution.” “Let’s Not arrest drug dealers. Arrests create lots of harm, and I don’t know if they do any good.” “The stigma of a drug user is powerful and the way to deal with that stigma is to convince police to stand down and stop arresting for drug possession. This is how society decides what is stigmatized; by what is legal and what is not.” “If you don’t put drug users in jail, then you’re not gonna have drugs in jail.” “We still have policies made by people who don’t understand.” “The best way to address organized crime; to deal with the Al Capones, was to legalize booze.” “Drug users have been using safe injections sites for a long time; they just haven’t been official.” LINKS: Garth Mullins Twitter: (https://twitter.com/garthmullins) Official Say Know homepage: (http://www.sayknow.org/) Canadian Research Initiative of Substance Misuse (CRISM) Prairies website: (https://crismprairies.ca/) SayKnow.org Facebook page: (https://www.facebook.com/sayknoworgSayKnow.org) Twitter feed: (https://twitter.com/SayKnowOrg) Music provided by Redbull DJ Champ, Charly Hustle: (http://www.charlyhustlemusic.com)

    1h 3m
  6. 05/12/2018

    Episode 13 - AIDS Saskatoon

    SHOW NOTES: Jason Mercredi is the Executive Director for AIDS Saskatoon. He has gained extensive knowledge from the front line and an advocate for Harm Reduction. He urges for a safe injection site in Saskatoon, as well as safe smoking supplies. For over a decade, Saskatchewan has had the highest HIV rates; mainly from intravenous drug use. AIDS Saskatoon is an outreach center with support workers. It provides a safe place for people with HIV or Hepatitis C to receive testing and support in a welcoming environment. AIDS Saskatoon has been operating a needle exchange program for 10 years, with over 100,000 clean needles given out a year. Jason truly values the importance of the relationships with his clients and meeting them where they are at. In this episode Jason and Matt speak at length about AIDS Saskatoon and what attitudes and supports they provide. They cover topics around stigma, prevention, HIV rapid testing, the “Wrap it Up” Indigenous condom initiative, and the cost  effectiveness of Harm Reduction. HIGHLIGHTS: -Jason gives details about the HIV centre in Saskatoon, what they provide and their beliefs, such as the importance of building trusting relationships with the clients. He talks about the importance of not giving up on clients if they act out, as well as the benefits of hiring peers. The centre offers a safe, welcoming place without judgment;  clients can come eat, or have a coffee. They can also get info about using drugs safely and can get testing for HIV or Hep C when the client is ready. -AIDS Saskatoon has 350-400 clients that are HIV+ but also clients that have Hepatitis C. HIV rates are 3 x’s the National average in Saskatchewan. Contrary to popular belief, the gay community is the least of the HIV rate. Highest risk is injection use, next is from Heterosexual sex. -Jason speaks about AIDS Saskatoon working towards deregulation of HIV rapid testing, and how it would eliminate barriers. Similar to a diabetic test, a blood sample would reveal the  results in less than a minute. -Jason discusses National HIV testing day, and partnering with Canadian AIDS society, and success of National testing day. -Jason talks about partnering with Saskatoon Sexual Health, developing ‘’Wrap it Up’’, providing 100,000 condoms in Cree, Dené for the  for the Northern Indigenous population. -Jason says that they want to see safe injections sites in Saskatoon, the benefits of safe consumptions sites and access to safe pipes. -Jason and Matt talk about Harm reduction, what works and what doesn't. Forcing people into treatment may seem like the right choice but it is actually counter productive, and may cause more harm. -Jason and Matt talk about the struggles of explaining to the community that financially investing a small amount into harm reduction can have a huge impact, and overall save more money in the long run. -Jason explains why it's cheaper to give a person a Naloxone kit and how it actually saves countless dollars long term. A Naloxone kit costs $40, which is a fairly small price - compared to thousands of dollars spent on ambulance, hospital and funeral costs. -Saskatchewan became the 2nd province to have Universal HIV and Hepatitis C medication coverage. -Jason and Matt discuss having conversations with people who disagree with harm reduction in a way that doesn’t create more conflict. QUOTES: “We need to save lives, because dead people can’t recover.” “One prevention of HIV saves you over a million dollars a year.” “We need to be able to provide an environment that’s welcoming, that’s relationship based, and where people can use in safe way so that we can engage them in care if they want to be.” “If your goal is to get a behavioral change out of somebody, you’re coming into that relationship with an agenda. That’s not an authentic relationship.” “We’re not gonna quit on them (the clients), just because they

    59 min
  7. 20/11/2018

    Episode 12 - Turning the Titanic: Leslie Mcbain of Moms Stop the Harm

    Leslie MacBain - Turning the Titanic Around SHOW NOTES: On January 4th, 2014 Leslie McBain lost her son, Jordan, to an overdose; a lethal combination of prescription drugs. As a teenager he had done the typical partying but by age 19 he was addicted to alcohol and cocaine. He attended treatment but relapsed shortly after. He managed to curb his addiction but later a doctor prescribed him Oxycontin for a back injury. Sadly, the beginning of the end. When he told his Dr he was addicted and needed help; he was simply cut off his prescription, and left to find it elsewhere. Leslie is a co-founder of Moms Stop the Harm (MSTH) - an organization of moms who have lost their children to the disease of addiction. They have banded together for strength; to advocate for compassionate policy changes in the face of an epidemic that continues to take away lives.They strive to decriminalize the possession of drugs and want the federal government to create a safe, regulated supply of opioids in order to save thousands of preventable deaths. HIGHLIGHTS: The cancelled patent for Oxycontin opened up the black market to replace the drug with knockoffs, and that is why we are seeing all the deaths today. Leslie identifies three major themes within the overdose communities - people were using substances alone, kids only experimenting (not actively addicted) got the poisoned drugs, and that the parents had tried everything they could to save their child. Leslie and Matt talk about the difficulties in journey to recovery such as: trying to find a good treatment facility, finding a good doctor who is educated in the disease of addiction and can prescribe the correct medications. Leslie shares great insight about what is needed to change to help people with addiction. Having detox, support,medically assisted treatment after detox, ongoing counselling and support services. Leslie and Matt talk about the importance of talking with the youth today about drugs - to be real and not give false info or scare tactics. Things like saying “Don’t do this” has the opposite effect. Leslie discusses B.C Centre of Substance Use (BCCSU) Initiative that focus’ on: Family Engagement, Peer Support Groups and a Recovery Pod (led by Marshall Smith). She talks about “The Gone too Soon” and “The Coping Kit” Handbooks available through BCCSU. “Stronger Together” a grant funded initiative for community support meetings in BC Leslie shares advice for parents struggling with a child in Addiction. She explains that amidst tough challenges of behavior, and approach of “tough love” or “rock bottoms” don’t work, in fact it’s counter productive. Leslie describes goals and visions that MSTH is taking on: Grief Support, Sibling Support, and online Private Support groups. They are advocating for the decriminalization of people who possess drugs as well as asking the federal government to create a safe regulated supply of opioids. QUOTES: “If we had a safe, regulated supply of opioids for people who are addicted; then the black market would largely disappear. People wouldn’t be dying like they are now.” “Support groups and sharing stories is one of the most powerful healing tools there is.” “Family is anyone who loves you, cares for you and supports you.” “There is nothing else in the history of this country that has killed so many people - that has not been attended to properly.” “How many people have to die before the government will do the right thing?” “The government isn’t willing to fund proper treatment services.” “Organizations need to come together and it’s like slowly turning the Titanic around. People are dying; falling off the ship all the time.” LINKS: Mom Stop the Harm Website www.momstoptheharm.com Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/MomsStopTheHarm/ British Columbia Centre on Substance Use http://www.bccsu.ca/ “Gone Too Soon” Handbook: http://www.bcc

    55 min
  8. 06/11/2018

    Episode 11 - Darcey Loitz

    SHOW NOTES: Darcey Loitz is passionate about helping other people struggling with addiction and is actively seeking to be a mental health and addictions worker. He shares with us his lived experience and insight on the underlying causes of addiction. He believes that addiction is rooted in childhood trauma and self medication of emotional pain. By the age of 11 he was consuming alcohol and using LSD  by Grade 6. He shares about being sexually abused by a man when he was 15 years old, and found the courage to share this only a year ago. In this episode Darcey discusses a wide variety of topics. He talks of childhood traumas and how he began to self medicate at a very young age. He discusses the significant role of his mother in his life. He speaks of his love for her, despite her suicide attempts, her struggle with alcoholism and an ongoing stressful cancer diagnosis. He talks of loss, fear and isolation, and the importance of reaching out. He discusses how important it was for him being a father and the loss of identity when his kids grew up and moved out. He also talks about his relationships with women, and the subject of rejection and being alone. His addiction slowly spiralled to eventually injecting Crystal Meth. A discovery at work ultimately leads him to getting help for his addiction and Darcey is now clean. HIGHLIGHTS: He grew up moving frequently, both of his parents struggled with alcoholism. He struggled to have stability or have friends because of moving all the time. He felt abandoned by his mom who was not home much when he was a kid. He shares his youngest traumatic memory; having almost died at age 3 due to a bunk bed accident In Grade 5 his mother had attempted suicide by shooting herself in the chest. She survived but it had traumatic lasting effects on him. Darcey began consuming alcohol and LSD at a very young age. Darcey talks about being sexually abused by a man when he was 15. Darcey recalls how important being a Dad was. His kids were his life and how difficult it was when they were all grown and moved out (Empty Nest Syndrome) and loss of identity. The straw that broke the camel's back...When His girlfriend walked out after he had already lost everything, his mom had passed away, his kids were grown and moved out, and then his girlfriend left him, and was he felt utterly alone. He talks about Depression and PTSD. He was suicidal and felt he had nothing left to live for. He knew he needed help but feared that he would lose his job and everything that he had worked all his life for like his house, etc.   Darcey discusses how losing his keys at work, essentially ended up saving his life and he was able to get the help he needed. How supportive his workplace was in helping him with attending treatment at the Northern Addictions Centre in Alberta. QUOTES: " We feel so alone in our addiction, even though we’re not; we feel alone in a room full of people..it's a strange feeling.” “I wanna take the things that helped me and pass that on to others, and let them know that they’re not alone.” “I felt like I had nothing to live for.” “He gave me my first shot,  and then I understood how people become addicted to Meth. I never felt anything like that in my life.” “You lose yourself - You don’t see the wake of destruction with that drug.” “Nobody at work knew that I was an intravenous user.” “I spent $80,000 in one year on Meth.” “I was trying to kill myself and just wanted to have fun doing it.” “He looked at who I Could be; instead of what I was doing.” “We are people first; and addicts second.” LINKS: The Mask You Live In - Documentary Official Say Know homepage - http://www.sayknow.org/Canadian Research Initiative of Substance Misuse (CRISM) Prairies website - https://crismprairies.ca/SayKnow.org Facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/sayknoworgSayKnow.org Twitter feed - https://twitter.com/SayKnowOrgMusic

    1h 27m

About

The Say Know Podcast works to bridge the gap between academic research and knowledge earned from the street; in the areas of drugs and addiction. We interview policymakers, researchers and people with lived experience. Our host, Matt Ingrouille, has been a cop for the last 12 years and uses his knowledge and experience to pull interesting, hilarious and often heart wrenching stories from our guests. The Say Know Podcast will give you insight on what is happening on the streets and what we can do as a community to make things better!

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