TrustTalk - It's all about Trust Severin de Wit

Our guest today is Fabian Zuleeg, CEO of the Brussels-based think tank European Policy Center (EPC). He discusses EPC’s role in advising decision-makers and influencing policy engaging in events, publications, and networking, with trust being crucial in its operations, including the trust of decision-makers, personal trust, and trust in confidentiality and ethics.


Zuleeg reflects on the EU’s creation to foster trust among member states through cooperation, laws, institutions, and economic interdependence. However, he notes that recent challenges have decreased trust due to increased diversity and complex crises. He introduces the concept of “cognitive dissonance”, where unrealistic views lead to ineffective actions, and discusses "permapolycrisis," referring to ongoing overlapping crises. He argues that crises can foster trust if faced collectively, as seen during COVID-19 and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, though unity is harder in international relations with the US or China.


Zuleeg criticizes the "collective progress illusion," where Europe’s actions are insufficient to meet major challenges. He calls for honesty about the difficult, costly nature of overcoming these challenges, using climate action as an example, and emphasizes strategic planning and involving citizens in long-term solutions. Addressing far-right and populist movements, Zuleeg describes these "anti-parties" as opposing policies without offering solutions. He stresses that democratic leaders must prove democracy can handle complex problems by being honest, admitting mistakes, and emphasizing collective action.


Zuleeg touches upon the role of think tanks like EPC in an environment where facts matter less. He emphasizes producing and explaining facts, adapting to the competitive information marketplace, and engaging in accessible debates. He notes the challenge of ensuring proposed solutions are practical and effective. On EU expansion, he argues that trust is impacted by the. Promises to new members must be credible, but reforms are necessary to ensure the EU functions effectively. He highlights the Western Balkans’ prolonged accession process as a trust issue. Finally, Zuleeg discusses EPC’s future challenges, including adapting to policy developments, crises, and new technologies. Attracting high-level analysts and dealing with technological changes, such as artificial intelligence, are key.

In episode 94 we explore the unique dynamics of family businesses with Jim Davis, a professor at the Huntsman School of Business at Utah State University. Jim explains the critical roles of trust and legacy in family enterprises and the differences between stewardship and agency theory. Stewardship theory suggests that leaders can be trusted to act in the best interests of the organization and its employees, while agency theory posits that leaders are self-interested and need to be controlled.


Jim discusses how these theories uniquely apply to family businesses, highlighting the challenges and opportunities in balancing tradition with the need for innovation and sustainability. He addresses the paradox of legacy; while it provides continuity and a strong cultural foundation, it can also become a source of strategic inertia, limiting entrepreneurial behavior. Jim emphasizes the importance of co-creating legacy, where each generation decides which values and traditions to retain and which to adapt. He also touches on the concept of social emotional wealth (SEW), which leads family businesses to prioritize family benefits over purely financial returns.


The interview explores the psychological traits of good stewards, including needs for personal growth, achievement, affiliation, and self-actualization. Jim explains that businesses can cultivate stewardship by sharing responsibility and opportunities for growth rather than imposing control. He highlights the evolving landscape of business, where sustainability and multiple performance measures among stakeholders are becoming increasingly important. He calls for more research into the dynamics of trust, especially how to restore it once broken, and the distinction between low trust and distrust.

In this episode, Steve van Riel, Senior Strategy Director and EMEA Head of Trust Development at Edelman UK, discusses his journey from UK politics to consumer trust research. Reflecting on the 2015 UK general election, Steve explains how trust influenced the outcomes. Labour wasn't trusted to manage finances effectively, while the Conservatives weren't trusted to do so compassionately, leading to an inconclusive result. This experience highlighted the importance of trust in high-stakes elections.


Steve's academic research, influenced by Daniel Kahneman's "Thinking Fast and Slow," examines how System One (fast, intuitive thinking) and System Two (slow, deliberate thinking) processes affect trust decisions. He applies this framework to consumer trust, explaining that low-stakes decisions often rely on fast thinking, where simple rules of thumb and heuristics guide choices. In contrast, high-stakes decisions require slow, deliberate thinking, where individuals weigh the evidence and consider potential risks more carefully.


He explains the concept of trust games, which provide a more nuanced, risk-based measure of consumer trust compared to traditional surveys. These games, involving real money, offer insights into consumer behavior towards brands, demonstrating how people use different cognitive processes when trust is at stake. For example, participants might make quick, intuitive decisions in familiar, low-risk scenarios, while they engage in more deliberate, thoughtful decision-making in high-stakes situations.


Steve also discusses the practical implications for businesses. For quick, intuitive decisions, companies can leverage simplicity and familiarity to build trust, using elements like simple logos, straightforward messaging, and user-friendly websites. For more deliberate decisions, businesses need to provide detailed, reassuring information and emphasize their reliability and regulatory compliance. He explains that in high-stakes scenarios, consumers are more likely to trust companies that demonstrate transparency and accountability.


He addresses the challenge boards face in turning abstract trust concerns into actionable strategies. He advocates for a unified framework across all business units to ensure trust is an integral part of business strategy and evaluation. He shares examples of successful implementations, such as Tesco's approach to pricing and McDonald's efforts to rebuild trust over decades.


Steve concludes by highlighting the ongoing challenge of maintaining precision and discipline in trust research. He stresses the need for practical applications of academic insights to solve real-world problems, using the example of how Boeing could apply trust research to rebuild its reputation after a series of accidents.

In this episode, our guest, Joe Hamm, a trust scholar from the School of Criminal Justice at Michigan State University, explores various themes centered around the concept of trust, particularly in the realms of criminal justice, policing, and environmental health.


Joe discusses how trust plays a crucial role in the interaction between the public and law enforcement. He differentiates trust from legitimacy, explaining that while legitimacy concerns the acceptance of authority and its inherent power, trust focuses more on managing the vulnerability associated with this power. Hamm emphasizes that trust in police is significantly influenced by the public’s perception of potential internal harms (e.g., misuse of authority or excessive force) rather than just the external harms (like crime) that police are expected to protect against. His studies highlight variations in how different racial and ethnic groups perceive these harms and trust law enforcement.


Joe also talks about trust in the context of environmental contamination, specifically referring to a case involving Dow Chemical in Michigan. He illustrates how high levels of trust in Dow Chemical led the local community to underestimate the risks of dioxin contamination in nearby waters, which, in turn, affected their engagement in protective behaviors like avoiding consumption of contaminated fish. This part of the discussion underscores the complex impact trust can have on public health behaviors and risk assessment.


Joe advocates for bridging the gap between academic research on trust and its practical applications. He suggests that media platforms like podcasts can facilitate better communication between researchers and practitioners, potentially leading to more effective trust-building strategies in various sectors.

Our guests today are Peter Wakkie and Tjeerd Wassenaar, talking about trust, crisis management, and corporate governance, leveraging their extensive experience in legal and corporate roles. They emphasize the critical importance of maintaining trust, highlighted through an example of an M&A transaction impacted by the COVID-19 pandemic, demonstrating how unexpected events can complicate negotiations and the importance of adaptability and integrity in such situations.


They show the importance of proactive risk management, advocating for a strategy that involves staying ahead of potential threats to protect the company's reputation and maintain trust. They discuss the necessity of a "trust but verify" approach and highlight the value of clear, enforceable rules over ambiguous principles to ensure consistent corporate behavior, reflecting on how these practices integrate into a company's DNA.


Peter shares his cautious stance on using communication experts during crises, stressing the conflict between the need for transparency and the potential legal repercussions, advocating for a balanced approach to crisis communication.


A significant focus is given to the practical application of the Three Lines of Defense model in risk management, emphasizing the need for active involvement and regular checks across company units to prevent crises effectively.


The podcast wraps up with reflections on the evolving business climate in the Netherlands, particularly discussing the challenges posed by the disconnect between business expectations and governmental actions. They explore how different corporate governance approaches, like the stakeholder model prevalent in Europe, impact business operations and decision-making, particularly in contrast to the shareholder-focused models in the UK and the US.

In this episode, we're joined by Carine de Meyere, the dynamic founder and president of Women of the World. Carine shares her vision behind her mission: to unite and empower one million women and girls by 2030. Set against the goals of the United Nations Sustainable Development, she details her path of ambition, recognition, and the pivotal role trust plays in building meaningful connections and collaborations. Carine takes an in-depth look at how women navigate and overcome obstacles in male-dominated fields, highlighting the crucial roles of mentorship, leadership, and trust, offering her insights on the need for women in leadership, the connection between trust and empowerment, and the effects of cultural differences on trust. We discuss topics such as the importance of women's leadership for global peace and decision-making, the pressing need for systemic change, and the empowerment of women in politics and other areas. The conversation with Carine de Meyere provides a motivational call to action to foster a more just, trusting, and equal world. Get ready to be inspired, challenged, and encouraged to join the movement towards achieving gender equality and strengthening sisterhood worldwide.