In the Belly of the Whale

Jonas Atlas

Conversations at the intersection of religion, mysticism, and politics. | In this fast-paced world, we all need some time for thorough contemplation about the essentials. It simply doesn’t matter how fast we’re going if we’re going in the wrong direction. So, every now and then Jonas Atlas asks an expert in the field of religious studies, theology or political sciences to join him in the belly of the whale for an in-depth dialogue.

  1. Sep 14

    Mind, Life and Language: A Philosophical Deconstruction of AI

    I invited author and theologian David Bentley Hart into the belly of the whale for a dialogue about language as a fundamental dimension of existence and as something that constitutes our very being. It’s a theme that he elaborately discussed more in his book All things are full of Gods: the mysteries of life and mind, and one of his most intriguing philosophical and theological arguments concerning. In fact, his considerations about language seem to become more relevant by the day as the hype around LLMs and generative AI increases. So, we took ample time to flesh it all out. We discussed the structure of language; why it cannot be mechanistically explained; how it relates to mind and life; why “emergentism” is a philosophical fallacy; why LLMs, despite their name, are not language at all; how the current cloud capitalism exposes the spiritual pathologies of our day and age; and why generative AI will never produce consciousness. Timestamps 00:00 - Intro 02:20 - A summary of David Bentley Hart in 500 words 08:13 - Part 1: Language 49:08 - Part 2: Generative AI 57:14 - A little excursion on cloud capitalism (and whether or not it's a new form of gnosticism) 01:07:24 - Part 2 continued *** David Bentley Hart can be followed on Substack: https://davidbentleyhart.substack.com/ For those who want to read one of David's books which were mentioned: - All Things Are Full of Gods: https://link.amazon/B0fwYRMaj - The Experience of God: https://link.amazon/B09JawT1K *** In The Belly of The Whale is hosted by Jonas Atlas. - Website: ⁠https://jonasatlas.net - Substack: https://jonasatlas.substack.com/ - YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@jonas-atlas

    Mind, Life and Language: A Philosophical Deconstruction of AI
  2. Sep 7

    A quick announcement

    A quick announcement for the loyal listeners of the show: I’m changing the name of the podcast. Sometime next week, Re-visioning Religion will become In the Belly of The Whale — or maybe it already has, if this announcement reaches you later. So why the change? When I started the show, I expected it to be mostly academic conversations about the place of religion in society and the many misunderstandings surrounding that topic. I had in mind to present historical and sociological analyses at the intersection of religion, spirituality, and politics, drawing on current research from religious studies and theology. In a sense, I pictured the podcast as a companion to my book Religion: Reality Behind the Myths. But as it turned out, my dialogues ended up focusing much more on metaphysics and philosophy. That certainly wasn’t by design — it just happened, as my own interests shifted and I found myself preoccupied with different questions. So, I think it’s time to acknowledge where the podcast has naturally been heading, and I’ll do so by changing its name. Honestly, not much else is changing. I’ll still be putting out conversations about religion, mysticism, and politics Metaphysical questions will still be tied to contemporary social and ethical issues. The only difference is that now I’m doing it In the Belly of the Whale. That is to say: it’s no longer intended as a podcast about religion, but rather as a podcast that theologically, philosophically and spiritually reflects on the world we’re living in. Hence the title. In this fast-paced world, we all need some time in the belly of the whale. As Mahatma Gandhi put it: “It doesn’t matter how fast we’re going if we’re going in the wrong direction.” So, there’s a dire need to return to the essentials. The whole of society should take a step back and make space for some thorough contemplation about the manner in which we can properly connect the ontological with the practical and the metaphysical with the ethical. Or – to put it in more religious terms – the heavenly with the earthly. Now, if you’ve been with me for a while, you know I don’t put out episodes very often. That’s probably not changing anytime soon — between my job, my personal contemplative life, and other projects (including podcasts and vlogs in Dutch), there just isn’t a lot of extra room. Still, I hope to see you from time to time in the belly of the whale. In fact, I’ve got a new episode coming up soon, and I couldn’t think of anyone better to mark the occasion than the great theologian and author David Bentley Hart. We first discussed his philosophy of mind, life, and language, and then explored how his insights might help us deconstruct the hype around generative AI and the problematic views of consciousness that are spreading as a result. So stay tuned, and subscribed on whatever podcast app you use — or on YouTube. My dialogue with David will be worth your time, if I do say so myself.

    A quick announcement
  3. 09/02/2025

    Navigating Truth Between Woo-woo and Scientism

    A few weeks ago, I paid a visit to the renowned biologist Rupert Sheldrake. He’s been on my show before, but those conversations were all recorded online. So when I found myself in London for a couple of days this summer, I dropped by his place for a cup of tea. Finally meeting in person, we started off just catching up—talking about our lives and some shared interests. After a while the conversation also turned to some of the bigger challenges we face today in humanity’s collective search for truth on the intersection of spirituality and science. That seemed like a topic that might be of interest for a wider public, so I decided to record that part of our conversation. And I’m glad I did. Considering Rupert’s personal history, few people seem more suited to discuss some of the issues that the so called ‘post truth era’ confronts us with. On one hand, he’s spent decades pushing the boundaries of biology, life, and consciousness, despite fierce opposition from hardline skeptics who dismiss anything that challenges the orthodoxy of mechanistic materialism. On the other hand, he’s always remained a scientist at heart. Even as his work gained traction in spiritual circles, he did not start catering to a more woo-woo spirituality that bases itself merely on intuition or personal experience. Even when exploring topics like telepathy or other paranormal phenomena, his approach always remained grounded in research. So, I was wondering: what can we learn from Rupert’s lifelong journey? How did he manage to stay balanced in his pursuit of truth? How might his approach help us navigate these confusing times, in which we are constantly bombarded with competing ideas, theories, and truth claims? It’s not always easy to separate the solid and the genuinely interesting from the flimsy and the nonsensical—but maybe some of Rupert’s strategies can inspire us to do just that. --- For Rupert's website: https://www.sheldrake.org/ For his substack page: https://rupertsheldrake.substack.com/ And for his podcast: https://www.sheldrake.org/audios/navigating-consciousness-podcast

    Navigating Truth Between Woo-woo and Scientism
  4. 05/27/2025

    Storytelling, myth and the contemporary revival of idealism

    Kevin P. Keating is a teacher of English literature at several colleges and universities. He's also a prize-winning fiction author. Jonas invited him for a conversation after reading his latest book Bridge of Dreams. Kevin's book brings together three interrelated short stories of magical realism. He places his characters in seemingly mundane settings and gradually lets them experience a journey through wonder and mystery. Themes like religion, reincarnation, psychedelics, spiritual transformation are constantly present in the background. As such, Jonas saw an opportunity to discuss religion and contemporary spirituality from the perspective of storytelling. Are humans inherently 'story creating creatures', and can religions be seen as the inevitable result of the story telling impulse? Is the supposedly 'secular' world not just yet another form of storytelling and, in that sense, as religious? How do we assess the work op Joseph Campbell in all of this? Has a truncated and commercialized version of his monomyth of the hero become the dominant religious story? How can we breach the dominance of that particular way of telling stories in a culture that has become so accustomed to them? How can we come up with new types of stories that allow more room for the contemporary revival of idealism? What would 'idealist myths' look like? And what about the use of psychedelics in trying to find new stories? Might they be pivotal in creating new stories or do they blind us to unconscious stories we haven't sufficiently faced? --- For more on Kevin's book Bridge of Dreams: https://www.collectiveinkbooks.com/iff-books/our-books/bridge-dreams-novel And for his website: https://kevinpkeating.blogspot.com/

    Storytelling, myth and the contemporary revival of idealism
  5. 01/09/2024

    The nature of the cosmic mind

    Both Rupert Sheldrake and Bernardo Kastrup are outspoken critics of mechanical materialism. In previous episodes, I already had a conversation with Bernardo Kastrup about his philosophical idealism and how that might influence our view of religion. With Rupert I had an in-depth dialogue about the seven secular myths about religion. However, I was surprised to find out that there were no recordings of the two of them discussing one of their core interests together: consciousness and its relation to the formation of reality. So, I reached out to them and proposed to moderate a talk about the overlaps and divergences in their views. In a sense, this led to a logical follow-up to our previous conversations, since we moved our focus from ‘religion’ to ‘God.’ That is to say, we engagaged in a discussion on the divine essence of existence. Casting a new light on age-old philosophical debates, the conversation explored the inherent consciousness underlying all reality in its deepest depths and highest heights. Rupert and Bernardo reinforced as well as nuanced each other’s perspectives, with a thought-provoking dialogue about the nature of the cosmic mind as a result. For a video version of this conversation: https://youtu.be/Wi1U7Cw4XV0?si=fyXxoTP0mDult2Bt For the previous episode with Bernardo Kastrup: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/re-visioning-religion/episodes/An-idealist-perspective-on-God-and-religion-e1k4cs9/a-a84m765 And for Jonas' earlier conversation with Rupert: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/re-visioning-religion/episodes/Bonus-the-seven-secular-myths-about-religion-e28i54o -----   For more on Bernardo and his work: https://www.bernardokastrup.com/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeDZCa3VrRQvzBlVR-oVVmA https://www.essentiafoundation.org/ https://www.youtube.com/@essentiafoundation ---   For more on Rupert and his work: https://www.sheldrake.org/ https://www.youtube.com/@RupertSheldrakePhD https://www.facebook.com/RupertSheldrake

    The nature of the cosmic mind

About

Conversations at the intersection of religion, mysticism, and politics. | In this fast-paced world, we all need some time for thorough contemplation about the essentials. It simply doesn’t matter how fast we’re going if we’re going in the wrong direction. So, every now and then Jonas Atlas asks an expert in the field of religious studies, theology or political sciences to join him in the belly of the whale for an in-depth dialogue.

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