Natural Reward Podcast

Owen Gilbert

The Natural Reward podcast will focus on questions of innovation, progress and advancement in the evolution of life. We will discuss the evolution of scientific theories, how to think critically about science, and questions of progress and advancement in technology and human culture. The Natural Reward podcast will cover the philosophy and history of science, evolutionary theory, and economic theory. Music by Christian Bjoerklund.

  1. Jun 28

    Why Myth-Busting Beats Shared Fictions

    Episode Overview In this "deep dive" episode, the hosts take a sledgehammer to the comforting narratives of popular science. Drawing on the work of evolutionary biologist Dr. Owen Gilbert, the conversation explores the profound difference between falling for a "seductive fiction" and engaging in "rigorous, brutal myth-busting". The episode challenges the bedrock of traditional Neo-Darwinism and examines how human success is actually driven by the destruction of dogma rather than collective imagination. Time Stamps 00:11 – Introduction: Does human success come from believing "shared fictions" or from ruthless myth-busting? 02:21 – Critiquing Sapiens: Why human progress actually requires the violent destruction of cherished myths rather than collective imagination. 07:09 – "Normal Science": Thomas Kuhn’s concept of how scientists often stop questioning the big picture to focus on tiny, intricate puzzles. 09:31 – The "Last Scientist": An academic archetype that prioritizes grant funding and job security over bold, risky discoveries. 11:40 – The Social Media Experiment: A real-world test showing how mainstream evolutionists reacted with dogma toward new ideas. 13:51 – The "Pothole Illusion": Dismantling teleology—the error of assuming a trait's current purpose is the cause of its existence. 20:47 – Darwin’s Contradiction: The two conflicting messages in the Origin of Species regarding blind tinkering versus absolute progress. 27:37 – Natural Selection as "The Inventor": How a blind, short-sighted process operates under conditions of resource limitation. 30:01 – Natural Reward as "The Entrepreneur": A new force that scales innovations when untapped resource zones become available. 43:48 – From Scarcity to Abundance: Shifting the psychological baseline from a Malthusian "shrinking pie" to a future of infinite innovative potential Key Highlights & Themes The Harari Critique: The hosts dissect Yuval Noah Harari’s Sapiens, which argues that human dominance stems from "shared fictions" (money, corporations, etc.). Gilbert argues Harari misses the mark: true progress comes from violently tearing down myths, such as realizing the Earth is not the center of the universe or that diseases are caused by microbes. The "Last Scientist" and Academic Dogma: Borrowing from Nietzsche and Popper, the episode describes the "Last Scientist"—an academic archetype who avoids risks to protect funding and tenure. These figures use peer review as a gatekeeping mechanism to silence alternative paradigms, treating science like a priesthood. The Teleological Trap: Many modern biologists fall into the "pothole illusion" of teleology—assuming a trait exists because of its final purpose. Using the example of Michael Levin’s slime mold experiment, Gilbert dismantles the idea that evolution has "foresight," explaining such behaviors through blind, local genetic mechanisms like kin recognition. The Neo-Darwinian "Double Bind": Darwin’s Origin of Species contained two conflicting messages: that evolution is a blind, local process (comparative progress) and that it inevitably leads to superior forms (absolute progress). Modern biology remains "schizophrenic" because it refuses to resolve this contradiction to avoid giving ground to creationists. Natural Selection vs. Natural Reward: Gilbert introduces a two-force framework for macroevolution: Natural Selection (The Inventor): A blind tinkerer operating under resource limitation and Malthusian struggle. Natural Reward (The Entrepreneur): A force operating under resource abundance that scales innovations into new ecological "markets". Real-World Case Studies Lenski’s E. coli Experiment: How 30,000 generations of "blind tinkering" led to a rare lineage "inventing" the ability to eat citrate, which was then "rewarded" with explosive population growth. Dinosaurs vs. Mammals: Mammals spent millions of years "tinkering in the shadows" with warm blood and large brains while dinosaurs held the incumbent advantage. The asteroid strike cleared the board, allowing mammals to be "naturally rewarded" by expanding into empty niches. The Apple Analogy: Steve Wozniak (Natural Selection) is the blind inventor in the garage; Steve Jobs (Natural Reward) is the entrepreneur who scales the invention to a mass market. The Shift in Perspective Scarcity vs. Abundance: Traditional Neo-Darwinism conditions us to see the world through a lens of Malthusian scarcity, leading to zero-sum thinking. The Innovation Engine: Gilbert’s theory suggests that the universe is not a closed, starving system, but a vast expanse of untapped resource abundance (like solar and fusion energy) waiting for the next great invention. Closing Thought: Are you going to spend your life fighting over the crumbs of a limited pie, or are you going to bust the myth and invent the tool that unlocks the void?

  2. Jun 25

    The Blind Entrepreneur: How Natural Reward Scales Life’s Greatest Inventions

    Summary In this episode, we dive into a radical new evolutionary framework proposed by Owen M. Gilbert in his paper, "Natural Reward Drives the Advancement of Life." We explore why the traditional "scarcity mindset" of Darwinian evolution—the idea that nature is a zero-sum battlefield—fails to explain the massive, global expansion of life. By introducing the concept of Natural Reward, we shift the perspective from a "struggle for existence" to a "struggle for supremacy," where the winners aren't just those who survive, but those who successfully scale into new, untapped biological markets. Key Takeaways The Energy Paradox: The sun bombards Earth with staggering power (3.7 x 10²⁶ watts), yet all life combined captures only 0.14% of available surface energy. Life is not drowning in scarcity; it is swimming in an infinite ocean of untapped free energy. The Darwinian Double Bind: Darwin’s "wedge analogy" suggests the world is a full board where a new species can only enter by pushing another out (comparative progress). However, this cannot logically explain absolute progress—the journey from single cells to the massive global biomass of rainforests and whales. The "Blind Inventor" vs. the "Blind Entrepreneur": Natural Selection (The Inventor): Acts like a tinkerer in a garage, solving local, immediate problems without foresight. Natural Reward (The Entrepreneur): Scales those local inventions into global monopolies when they accidentally stumble into an empty market. Measuring Success by "Market Cap": In biology, a metric of absolute progress is biomass. While viruses are numerous, their "market cap" (biomass) is equal to earthworms, whereas terrestrial plants are the ultimate monopolistic winners, capturing 450 gigatons of carbon. The Death of Teleology: Complex traits—like E. coli evolving the capacity to metabolize citrate—evolve through random, blind steps that have no future goal in mind. The "big reward" only happens at the end when a trait accidentally fits a global need. Deep Dive Segments 1. The Citrate Vault: Proof of the Blind Inventor We look at Richard Lenski’s 44,000-generation E. coli experiment. After decades, only one population out of twelve evolved the ability to eat citrate. Most of the six selective steps were more about metabolizing acetate rather than citrate. Even after weak citrate metabolism was gained, a few more optimizing steps were necessary until the population "discovered" the true extent of the untapped resource zone. The big reward came only at the end.  2. Biological Antitrust: The Asteroid and the Dinosaurs For 140 million years, mammals were "blind inventors" stuck in the dark underbrush, unable to scale because dinosaurs held an entrenched monopoly. The Chicxulub asteroid was the ultimate "biological antitrust action," shattering the dinosaur monopoly and allowing mammalian inventions (like placentas and warm blood) to finally scale and conquer the globe. 3. Human Economics as a Managed Ecosystem Humanity has codified Natural Reward into law. Patents protect the local novelty of the "blind inventor," while contracts ensure the "entrepreneur" can scale that product. We even use antitrust laws to simulate artificial mass extinctions, breaking up corporate "dinosaurs" to let new innovations reach the sunlight. Conclusion: The Paradox of Innovation True advancement rarely comes from rigid, goal-oriented optimization. If you aim strictly for a distant target, you filter out the strange, "useless" stepping stones required to get there. Whether in nature or a career, the lesson is clear: keep tinkering in the garage, but also be prepared to recognize an untapped opportunity.  You may not be able to predict when a localized novelty will stumble into a massive, unmet need, which itself could be new. Resources Mentioned Natural Reward Drives the Advancement of Life by Owen M. Gilbert (2020), published in Rethinking Ecology. The Lenski Long-Term Evolutionary Experiment (LTEE). The "Picbreeder" experiment (genetic art).

  3. Jun 1

    Natural Reward’s Struggle to Exist: How a New Theory First Entered the Scientific World

    I. What does it take for a new scientific theory to come into existence? Before a theory can spread, it must first emerge. It must be invented, named, clarified, defended, revised, and forced into a form that can survive public scrutiny. Only later comes dissemination: the broader process of spreading the theory, persuading an audience, applying it to new problems, and building a scientific movement around it. II. The hostile world: why natural reward had trouble being born. Evolutionary biology was already organized around natural selection, local adaptation, and suspicion toward claims of progress. Natural reward therefore faced resistance on several fronts: Conceptual hostility A theory of “advancement” sounded dangerously close to goal-directed evolution.Linguistic hostility Terms such as “reward,” “entrepreneurship,” “monopoly profit,” and “struggle for supremacy” sounded foreign to standard biology.Empirical hostility Reviewers demanded biological evidence rather than analogies from economics, business, or philosophy.Professional hostility Experts could interpret the project not as a new theoretical synthesis, but as overreach, crackpottery, or a challenge to disciplinary authority.This makes the “hostile scientific world” more than interpersonal conflict. It is the resistance a new conceptual organism faces when it enters an established intellectual ecosystem. III. The first form of the theory: powerful but not yet biologically armored The early 2019 preprint is the theory in its first exposed form. It contains the main intuition: natural selection explains the origin of useful inventions, while natural reward explains their broader success, spread, and macroevolutionary consequences. But the theory was still vulnerable. Its analogies were vivid but risky: Apple, Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, McDonald’s, Ray Kroc. They clarified the distinction between invention and dissemination, but also invited reviewers to see the theory as economics projected onto nature. Natural reward had been conceived, but it had not yet evolved the traits needed to survive peer review. IV. Peer review as selection pressure Reviewers imposed demands that reshaped the theory’s phenotype: remove loose economic analogies;provide biological mechanisms;define progress;clarify the difference between natural selection and natural reward;avoid language suggesting conscious foresight;show that the theory applies across real biological systems.The paper itself underwent a kind of intellectual selection. Weak or vulnerable formulations were stripped away. Stronger formulations survived. V. The conceptual birth: natural selection as blind inventor, natural reward as blind entrepreneur The mature theory emerges when the contrast becomes precise: Natural selection is the blind inventor. It produces traits through local, immediate, incremental advantages.Natural reward is the blind entrepreneur. It explains the broader success of those traits when they unlock new resources, ecological opportunities, or zones of expansion.The key word is blind. The theory rejects teleology. Natural reward does not guide organisms toward future goals. It rewards inventions when circumstances make them spread. VI. Replacing business analogies with biological case studies. This was the main transformation of the manuscript: the theory acquired biological armor. A. Sea squirt histocompatibility Sea squirts show how a trait can originate as a local solution to conflict and later enable long-term resilience. The recognition system does not evolve because somatic parasites already provide the main selective pressure. Rather, fusion creates the conditions for discriminatory conflict among cell lineages, and that conflict selects for histocompatibility. Once the system exists, it incidentally protects against the spread of obligate parasites. This illustrates how biologists had often confused an incidental effect with the adaptive cause. B. C4 photosynthesis. C4 photosynthesis shows that the cause of origin and the cause of later success can differ. Intermediate steps may have evolved as local fixes for photorespiration, not as adaptations for domination in low-CO₂ environments. Later, when atmospheric conditions changed, the completed system was rewarded with ecological expansion. This is one of the clearest cases in which an invention can lie dormant for millions of years before finally spreading. C. Mammalian radiation after the dinosaurs. Mammals evolved traits such as endothermy, lactation, placenta, neurological capacity, and nocturnal adaptations under the shadow of dinosaurs. Those traits did not originate because mammals foresaw a post-asteroid world. But when the dinosaurs disappeared, those accumulated capacities were rewarded by a vast vacant ecological field. This example gives natural reward its macroevolutionary drama. VII. The linguistic battle: why “struggle for supremacy” matters. This is not a minor wording dispute. It is a battle over whether the theory is allowed to name its own phenomenon. “Struggle for existence” belongs to Darwin’s world of local survival under resource limitation. “Struggle for supremacy” names a different scale: the macroevolutionary race to dominate resource zones, achieve incumbent advantage, and monopolize ecological opportunity. The phrase sounds aggressive and politically charged. But softer alternatives like “creative expansion” fail to capture the ruthless, exclusionary side of macroevolutionary success. If natural reward loses its language, it risks being absorbed back into ordinary selectionist vocabulary. VIII. Nietzsche, teleology, and scientific credibility. The early version leaned on Nietzsche and the idea of life as expansion or power. The published version removes Nietzsche. This shows strategic discipline. The theory does not abandon its boldness, but it sheds unnecessary philosophical vulnerability. It keeps the biological claim while dropping material that would make reviewers think the argument rests on metaphysics. Natural reward survived by learning what not to carry into the scientific world. It kept “struggle for supremacy.”It kept “blind entrepreneur.”It kept “monopoly profit.”But it dropped the philosopher who made the theory easier to dismiss. IX. The Blount confrontation: when data interpretation becomes conflict. Zack Blount provided crucial insight into the multistep selective process leading to E. coli citrate metabolism. At first, the exchange was scientific and technical. Blount helped refine the citrate figure, correcting details about acetate, glucose metabolism, specific mutations, and aerobic citrate transport. But the deeper conflict was not about molecular facts. It was about what those facts mean. Gilbert sees: incremental enabling steps favored by selection;the passing of a key threshold favored by selection;the massive population expansion and subsequent domination of the flask by citrate metabolizers as natural reward;this distinction being important in a broader macroevolutionary context.Blount sees: incremental enabling steps favored by selection;the passing of a key threshold favored by selection;the massive population expansion as a reward that came only at the end;the reward is selection.In Gilbert's view, natural selection is about competitive displacement under checks to increase. Even occasional expansions can have huge impacts on macroevolutionary patterns. Moreover, they can also result in a different type of competition in which the first lineages to exploit untapped resource zones expand, diversify, and gain an incumbent advantage. Blount views all non-random differential reproductive success as due to selection, which is the standard Neo-Darwinian view.  Gilbert explicitly contests this view by distinguishing the units of reproduction from the units upon which different forces act. The intensity of the exchange — accusations of crackpottery, comparison to creationist tactics, concern over public communication, and Blount’s request to be unnamed in the acknowledgments — shows that the theory’s emergence was not merely technical. It had a human element. X. The Darwinian double bind: why the theory had to be invented. Evolutionary biology says natural selection has no goal and produces only local adaptation. Yet the history of life appears to show large-scale directional patterns: increasing ecological reach, increasing innovative capacity, and major transitions from simple to more complex forms of organization. This is the Darwinian double bind: theory denies absolute progress;history appears to display it.Natural reward is presented as the attempted solution. It preserves blind causation while explaining why life can nevertheless advance over deep time. XI. Closing frame: emergence before dissemination The podcast ends by asking how we can distinguish a genuine scientific advancement at the moment it first appears. If natural reward is correct, then it may be impossible to foretell which apparently minor invention will one day inherit the earth. In that sense, the episode treats natural reward itself as an invention whose future reward cannot yet be known.

  4. Feb 24

    Hamilton’s Rule and Inclusive Fitness, Part I: What Did Hamilton (1964) Actually Define?

    Keywords Inclusive fitness, Hamilton’s rule, kin selection, altruism, social evolution, population genetics, gene substitution, Fisher’s average effect, relatedness, evolution of cooperation, greenbeard effect, dominance, allele frequency change, mathematical modeling, empirical research Summary In this episode of the Natural Reward podcast, brothers Owen and Jon Gilbert revisit Hamilton’s original papers on inclusive fitness and the evolution of altruism. They discuss how Hamilton’s rule (rb – c > 0) emerged as a condition for the spread of social alleles, and how Hamilton’s original formulation of inclusive fitness involved subtracting the “dilution effect” of uncorrelated interactions from total fitness. The conversation explores longstanding ambiguities in the 1963–64 papers, including whether inclusive fitness applies to alleles, genotypes, or individuals, and how assumptions such as haploidy or additive gene action affect the interpretation of Hamilton’s rule. Owen outlines how the quantity rb – c corresponds to Fisher’s average effect of a gene substitution under certain conditions, while becoming frequency dependent under dominance or decoupled from relatedness in greenbeard scenarios. These distinctions have important implications for empirical work: subsequent theoretical generalizations often redefine r, b, and c so that rb – c tracks allele-frequency change, making it difficult to determine when Hamilton’s original rule has actually been tested. The episode concludes by emphasizing the need for clearer theoretical guidance in designing experiments capable of rigorously evaluating Hamilton’s rule in natural populations. Takeaways Hamilton (1964) defined inclusive fitness by subtracting the dilution effect from total fitness.It is not always clear in Hamilton’s early papers whether inclusive fitness applies to alleles, genotypes, or individuals.Under haploidy or additive gene action, rb – c corresponds to Fisher’s average effect of a gene substitution.With dominance, the average effect becomes frequency dependent.In greenbeard scenarios, altruistic alleles can be favored even when rb – c 0.Later theoretical work often defines r, b, and c so that rb – c is proportional to allele-frequency change.Empirical researchers typically measure genealogical relatedness and phenotypic costs and benefits.Applying Hamilton’s rule outside of strictly altruistic contexts can make b and c difficult to interpret.A central challenge is determining how to test Hamilton’s rule in real populations with measurable parameters.Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Inclusive Fitness and Hamilton's Rule 01:16 Exploring Hamilton's Original Work 03:27 Clarifying Inclusive Fitness Definitions 05:08 Mathematical Clarity in Inclusive Fitness 07:18 The Concept of Exclusive Fitness 10:39 Dominance and Its Implications 12:55 Average Effect of Gene Substitution 15:35 Challenges in Empirical Applications of Hamilton's Rule

  5. 03/01/2024

    Composite-trait evolution in pitcher plants: Ulrike Bauer

    Ulrike Bauer discusses the evolution and diversity of pitcher plants, focusing on the spring trapping mechanism found in some species. Pitcher plants are carnivorous plants that capture insects in a fluid-filled cavity. They have evolved independently multiple times and are found all over the world. The spring trapping mechanism is a composite trait that involves multiple adaptations, including a horizontal lid, a spring-like structure, and a slippery surface. The study of this mechanism involved fieldwork, experiments, and collaboration between researchers with expertise in ecology, biomechanics, and evolutionary biology. In this part of the conversation, Ulrike discusses the evolution of a composite trait and the opportunity to study how such a trait can evolve independently in different species. She explains how she came up with hypotheses and tested them to understand the evolution of the spring trapping plant. The conversation also explores the absence of transitional stages in the fossil record and the role of randomness in the emergence of complex traits. Ulrike's research challenges the traditional narrative of goal-directed evolution and highlights the importance of considering alternative mechanisms. The conversation explores the evolution of complex traits and the emergence of their functions. It discusses the stepwise process of trait evolution, such as self-incompatibility in plants and the evolution of pitcher plants. The incidental effects of complex traits on extinction rates and the maintenance of sexual reproduction are also examined. The concept of innovation in evolutionary biology is explored, highlighting the importance of variation and the role of selection in generating novelty. The challenges of studying complex trait evolution and the need for more empirical studies are discussed. Takeaways Pitcher plants are carnivorous plants that have evolved independently multiple times and are found all over the world.The spring trapping mechanism in pitcher plants is a composite trait that involves multiple adaptations.The spring trapping mechanism is an example of a moving trap that employs movement to capture prey.The study of the evolution of pitcher plants involved fieldwork, experiments, and collaboration between researchers with different areas of expertise. Composite traits can evolve independently in different species, providing an opportunity to study the evolution of complex traits.Hypotheses can be formulated and tested to understand the mechanisms behind the evolution of composite traits.The absence of transitional stages in the fossil record challenges the traditional narrative of goal-directed evolution.Randomness and variability play a significant role in the emergence of complex traits. Complex traits often evolve through a stepwise process, gradually building upon existing traits to create new functions.Incidental effects of complex traits can have significant ecological and evolutionary consequences, such as influencing extinction rates.The distinction between invention and innovation is important in understanding the origin and spread of complex traits.Variation is a key factor in generating novelty and driving the evolution of complex traits.Studying the origin of complex traits can provide valuable insights into the mechanisms of evolution.

  6. 05/11/2023

    Using Drones and AI to Find Illegal Dumping Sites: Interview with Brian Johnson

    Illegal dumping is a widespread problem in cities throughout the world and differentially affects disadvantaged neighborhoods.  Brian Johnson is a software engineer who moved to San Francisco nearly a decade ago. At the time, Brian could afford a house only in the least-expensive neighborhood, Bayview. Despite hopes for improvement, over time Bayview declined because of an illegal dumping problem.  To protect his children, Brian started brainstorming ways to solve this problem. The problem is difficult because dumping laws are difficult to enforce and people can easily get away with the crime.  Brian's solution was to automate drones to fly in grid-like patterns, take photos of a neighborhood, instantly recognize trash heaps using artificial intelligence (AI), and automatically report the locations of the trash piles to 311.  Brian tested many different types of AI and programmed the drones to automatically report trash heaps. This resulted in major improvements in his neighborhood, recognized by neighbors and by Brian's own tests. However, Brian is still seeking to scale up his project to help other neighborhoods and cities and seeks funding for the project.  Brian, who has a law degree and specialized in intellectual property, also wrote a patent for his system, not to prevent other people from doing this, but to prevent other people from preventing him from doing it.  Brian's solution leads to more unbiased was of reporting trash piles that can yield more equitable outcomes. Otherwise, city trash collectors may be called to affluent neighborhoods more often. Brian shows a number of photos taken by his drone in the video and explains how he trains the artificial intelligence to recognize trash heaps.  Brian has applied for an NSF grant and to join Y Combinator.

  7. 02/15/2023

    Updating the Software of Social Evolution to Patch the Kin-Recognition Bug

    In this episode, my brother Jon and I discuss my work on the evolution of kin recognition. Jon is a software engineer and likes to put my arguments in terms of debugging software. For many years, the mere finding of kin recognition in nature was taken as prima facie evidence of W. D. Hamilton's theory of "inclusive fitness." A large paradigm was built on the teleological assumption that kin recognition is evidence of the final cause of "inclusive fitness maximization."  A major anomaly to this paradigm called "Crozier's paradox," analogous to a software bug, suggested that kin recognition could not evolve for directing altruism to kin.  When I finally resolved Crozier's paradox almost 30 years after it first appeared, the implications were extremely disruptive. As Jon would put it, much of the "software" of social evolution came to depend on the assumptions that led to Crozier's paradox. By questioning these assumptions, my theory implied that social evolutionists had misunderstood the adaptive basis of kin recognition, incorrectly tested Hamilton's rule, and misinterpreted Darwinism. Particularly, social evolutionists had misinterpreted Darwin's theory as teleological and tried to justify this teleology with generalized mathematical equations, like inclusive fitness or generalized versions of Hamilton's rule. Jon and I discuss how that theorists rejected my work because it did not conform to their prior expectations about what "general theory" is supposed to be, even though it yielded novel predictions for the genetics and evolution of kin recognition that were upheld by 50 years of evidence. We end this podcast with a brief discussion of the differences between scientific peer review and open software forums that allows "bugs" to persist in science. This episode is essential listening for anyone who wants to know what is wrong with science today. References and notes for this episode can be found at the natural reward blog.

About

The Natural Reward podcast will focus on questions of innovation, progress and advancement in the evolution of life. We will discuss the evolution of scientific theories, how to think critically about science, and questions of progress and advancement in technology and human culture. The Natural Reward podcast will cover the philosophy and history of science, evolutionary theory, and economic theory. Music by Christian Bjoerklund.