Ep.2 We’re Wired for Story with Alexander Beiner
In this episode, Katie Churchman with Alexander Beiner about the power of storytelling. Across the conversation, they discuss how to use storytelling to make sense of complicated concepts and ideas, using storytelling to weave together seemingly unrelated disciplines, story as a bridge between different systems, the darker side of storytelling, and much more. Alexander Beiner is a writer, podcaster, and facilitator with a love for making sense of culture, hosting transformative experiences, and exploring how we can evolve and thrive in the chaotic times we live in. He is one of the founders of Rebel Wisdom, a popular alternative media platform that ran from 2017-2022 and explored cutting-edge systems change and cultural sensemaking. As well as publishing regular essays and articles on his Substack, The Bigger Picture, he is also an executive director of Breaking Convention, Europe's longest-running conference on psychedelic medicine and culture, and also co-created and co-facilitated a legal psilocybin retreat called Regenerative Stewardship. He is the author of 'The Bigger Picture: How psychedelics can help us make sense of the world,' which was released this month and is available on Audible, Amazon, and more. I would highly recommend picking up a copy- everything Ali writes is hugely thought-provoking and has me questioning my worldview. This was a fascinating deep dive into storytelling and how it helps us make sense of the world. Enjoy! Episode 2: We’re Wired for Story with Alexander Beiner Key KC- Katie Churchman AB- Alexander Beiner KC: Ali. Welcome to the Balcony View Podcast. Delighted to have you on the show. AB: Delighted to be here. Thanks for having me. KC: I'm very excited about this discussion today, and I want to start by talking about the fact that you use a range of different mediums and platforms. So you write, you podcast, you create videos, and across all of these, I've noticed a theme around storytelling. And so, I want to start by asking you why storytelling is so integral to your work and what you do. AB: Yeah, well, I mean, the first thing to say is that I love it, and I think many of us love a story. I have really vivid memories of sitting in school at the age of like six or seven for story time. A teacher will read, or my mum and dad actually used to read to me as well. And there's just something magical about it, I think. But aside from that quality of it, there are a few reasons I think storytelling is so important. One of them is that if we want to communicate ideas to each other, we generally do it through stories. And there’s actually a lot of neuroscience to back this up, that we learn much more through stories rather than just facts. KC: Right. AB: Which is, of course, why the news isn't just, this happened, this happened, this happened, this happened. And here are the statistics. We, of course, tell stories around stuff. In fact, we're just kind of completely immersed and wrapped up in stories everywhere. Our own stories, the people we're connected to, the stories we tell about our culture. So, the world is, in some way, the social sphere is made of stories. And so, if we want to communicate or make sense of it or hopefully change aspects of it, we have to do that. Not exclusively, but definitely a huge part of it is through storytelling. There's another aspect of stories which is that they are one of the most inclusive ways to communicate because it's cross-cultural; every culture has stories. It's part of how we're wired; we’re kind of like storytelling animals, in a way. And also, the stories that we tell have something more going on in them than just entertainment or even lessons. A Jungian view on storytelling would say that really what's happening in stories is that it's an external communication of a deep internal world that we all share and a kind of collective unconscious that we share as well. So people might be familiar with Joseph Campbell, who was a famous mythologist. He wrote a book called The Hero With a Thousand Faces, amongst others, and his argument was that there's a monomyth and really every story is, even though it looks like it's got different characters and different settings, it's really a way of exploring and explaining the process. We go on as human beings to grow and mature and go from a limited state of awareness and ability to a more expanded state of awareness and maturity. And Campbell’s view of it was actually fairly masculine. It was very much outward-facing adventuring. And it's criticised for that as well, I think, partly rightly because it is somewhat limited. And I did a piece during the pandemic, it was around myth and the importance of understanding, looking at the pandemic through a mythic lens. And one of the people I interviewed for it was a writer called Charlotte Du Cann. And she pointed out that there's a female initiation myth as well, which is just as prevalent all around the world. But it's almost inverted where often a character might start as a princess and then go through a process where she has to come down to the earth and a kind of connection with the ground of reality. And she said, in nature, you can be beautiful, but you can't be a princess. It's something about coming into the natural humility of being a human being and being interconnected with things, and from there, learning. And I think both men and women go through the different aspects of these types of stories that we're living in our own lives. Sometimes we are on a quest to achieve something, and our culture really values that. For example, starting a business or do this or do that. But sometimes, we have to come deep into ourselves and make a connection with the people around us, and that's our transformation. So, I think that it's really on both sides, and it's really not one or the other. That's one of the reasons I think storytelling is so important because some variation of those myths is across culture. And it's almost like as soon as you start to try and tell a story… the idea- if you buy into the monomyth- is that you are inevitably going to repeat this pattern, this deeply encoded pattern of the way we understand ourselves in the world. And so that's really beautiful because there are very few things that are that universal as a way of making sense of our lives. And so that's one of the most important aspects of storytelling. KC: That's fascinating. And then I wonder, there are certain subjects that feel quite starved of storytelling, and so what does that do in terms of how we make sense of complicated concepts and ideas? AB: Yeah, that's a really good point. Well, I think what you just said is part of the reason why some people have made a really great career out of writing, like popular science books or books about history. (History is a bit easier because history is kind of a story. Right, ‘story’ is in the word.) But I think what it does is it sort of alienates if we can't tell it in the form of a story. Like, I just read a book about quantum gravity, which is really out there, quantum physics, and is really confusing. But it was interesting because a big chunk of the book was… it's by Carl Rovelli… I think that’s his name. KC: Oh, yes, I love his work. AB: He's great. And so a big chunk of the book was really, I mean…it was a very good book. I'd say the first 80% of it was the history of physics up until where we are now. And it was like a story, and it was fascinating, and it was easy to follow and understand what had been going on and why certain theories built on other theories and what was missing and what gaps are being filled. And it also has all these characters like Einstein, these kinds of brilliant people who are different personalities. And then when he got onto the quantum gravity bit, I was also driving, so I was listening to it on Audible, but I got really lost, and I was like, “Oh God, now I'm confused”. And he does say, “You're going to get confused now because we don't really understand this either.” But it was a really striking example of what you're talking about, where he couldn't really story tell around it. He's great at using metaphors, and he’s a really great communicator of science, but really getting into the weeds of it, if you're not an expert in that area, you're inevitably going to struggle with it. And that's true of anything. And that's true of a lot of the worlds I'm in like the systems change world and the psychedelic world, there are particular aspects of those that are very nitty-gritty. KC: Right. AB: And it's very difficult to get people interested in that if you're not willing to set aside the nitty gritty and tell a story that's authentic and true but sacrifices some of the details because those details are just going to get people confused. And then, if they are interested, then it's like an invitation that they could go and really delve in and do their own research, et cetera. KC: It's almost like how language can isolate and alienate. If we don't connect a story, we don't seem to connect to those wider systems. It sort of stays within that network. I have quite a lot of engineering clients, and they'll say, “Yeah, but you just won't understand this.” And I think, but what about the clients that you're working with? How do you want them to understand this? And maybe story is that bridge for us that helps us to create connections with those other systems outside of our expertise. AB: Yeah, that's really nice. I like that idea a lot, that there's a kind of it's like translation between different systems, which is really essential because everything should or can inform everything else. And I think that really drives innovation. If the engineering world can speak to the abstract art world in a particular way where they can understand each other, then it can really improve both worlds. KC: I love that you brought in Carlo Rovelli. I was so struck by his work bec