This Isn’t Working

Tanya de Grunwald
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This Isn’t Working

The podcast for employers and employees who think it’s time to talk about the failings of workplace culture - and how we can do better. Host: Tanya de Grunwald - Journalist, HR commentator, founder of the Good + Fair Employers Club and careers blog Graduate Fog, and listed as one of HR Magazine’s ’Most Influential Thinkers’

  1. FEB 5

    Is HR allergic to criticism? And what isn't working in the Civil Service? (Ft. Pamela Dow)

    What happens when you ask whether Human Resources has lost the plot in places – including around DEI? Pamela Dow – Chief Operating Officer at think tank Civic Future – found out the hard way, as author of that New Statesman article on HR, and chair of that government report on DEI. In this episode, Pamela explains why she’s more convinced than ever that ‘something is definitely going on’ with HR – and why that motivates her to keep asking important questions, especially when they are taboo. We discuss: * WHY DID THE HR INDUSTRY FIND HER CRITIQUE SO… TRIGGERING? Does she stand by the New Statesman article? Does she regret not speaking to CIPD (Chartered Institute of Personnel Development) CEO Peter Cheese before she submitted it? And is she ‘right-wing’? * WHO IS DRAWN TO A CAREER IN HR? Does the industry represent itself appropriately to new talent – or are we setting unhelpful expectations which cause trouble in the future?  * WHAT IS THE CIPD ACTUALLY DOING? A blend of trade union, membership association and lobby group is ‘a difficult balance to tread,’ Pamela says. Is the CIPD’s identity crisis partly to blame for the confusion and ‘mission creep’ which HR’s critics now say it suffers from? In the second half this episode, we turn to ‘what isn’t working’ in the Civil Service, asking: * IS THERE A PIPELINE PROBLEM? Who is attracted to a career in the Civil Service – and have mistakes been made with employer branding? For example, should recruitment teams have pushed back on ‘whizzy Soho marketing agencies’ who prioritised promoting the Civil Service Fast Stream as a chance to change the world – rather than becoming dutiful public servant to the government of the day? * WHY ARE CIVIL SERVANTS BEHAVING LIKE ACTIVISTS – WHEN THEY’RE MEANT TO BE INDEPENDENT? Why has DEI become so big in the Civil Service? Was Baroness Claire Fox right to express alarm at the ‘group think’ she’s witnessed around race and gender identity in her recent speech in the House of Lords? And does the Civil Service have a particular problem with staff who express gender critical views? * WHY ARE CIVIL SERVANTS SUCH BRAZEN JOB-HOPPERS? Pamela explains the incentives that drive people to move from department to department – and we discuss the dangers of being deficient in deep expertise, but pretending you know it all... * IS THE CIVIL SERVICE TOO COSY WITH THE CIPD? Is as much as £10m of taxpayers’ money funding CIPD credentials for HR professionals working in the Civil Service? Is this ethical, if the main benefit is to the individual, and the CIPD appears to enjoy a monopoly in providing this service? Enjoy the episode! Watch on YouTube https://bit.ly/4aL6Diy #hr #dei #humanresources #woke

    1h 2m

  2. JAN 28

    DEI in distress! Will the industry survive Trump's attack?

    We knew Donald Trump hated ‘DEI nonsense’ – but did we expect him to torch it on Day 1 of his new term in the White House? And what does this mean for those of us working in or around this troubled industry? In this episode, Tanya and (sensible!) DEI (or 'EDI' in the UK) consultant Heeral Gudka (founder of Convergent) discuss the immediate impact of a momentous week for DEI – and what the US ‘vibe shift’ might mean for the UK long-term. Included in their analysis: * DOES THIS PROVE THAT DEI WAS POLITICAL, ALL ALONG? It’s not normal for a whole industry to be so vulnerable to the arrival of a new US President. If Trump torching DEI suggests this work had become too aligned with the Democrats in the US, what are the lessons for DEI in the UK?  * WHO IS THE MOST DISTRESSED? Tanya voices particular concern for DEI advocates who identify as trans or non-binary. Always a vulnerable group, they have built their career around creating norms that help them to feel accepted on their own terms. Now the new administration – and American voters – seem to have rejected the concept of gender identity (prioritising biological sex instead), how will they cope with this new reality? Will they continue to urge employers to campaign for the world they want – or concede that it is not appropriate for most to do this? * IS IT TOO LATE TO SAVE DEI? Tanya and Heeral’s LinkedIn feeds show numerous shocked DEI professionals who seem not to have been paying attention. Meanwhile, others are calmly proposing a more moderate, conciliatory, evidence-driven approach, to course-correct and save DEI. Does this suggest they knew all along that they had over-reached? Are they only pitching a reset now the tide has turned?  * WHAT ARE UK HR DIRECTORS SAYING? We hear from two – with slightly different takes about the significance of what’s happening Stateside, and how (and when) it’s likely to impact UK employers – both in the private and public sector… * DOES DATA AND DISCUSSION OFFER A PATH BACK TO COMMON SENSE? One HR director says it’s time to accept Alex Edmans' evidence that we were duped by the ‘McKinsey Myth’ (that demographic diversity leads to improved financial performance – when it doesn’t) and look again at how recruit and retain the best people, and maximise productivity. They say HR professionals would be smart to jump at Simon Fanshawe's advice to encourage disagreement, and Tanya’s invitation to crack open long-overdue discussions about where we’ve lost our way, and how to navigate our return to a more sensible approach... * ARE HR AND DEI PEOPLE SHARING THEIR OWN VIEWS TOO FREELY ON SOCIAL MEDIA? Do they realise they are creating risk for their employer (or clients) by showing they have clear political biases? Heeral – who specialises in resolving workplace conflicts around belief discrimination – warns that expressing strong opinions can backfire if grievance investigations turn sour, as social media posts can be used to show the investigator was not impartial. In particular, Heeral predicts a rise in conflicts around gender critical beliefs – as too many HR teams still fail to understand the significance of Maya Forstater's landmark case in 2023, which showed that such views are legally protected in the UK... Enjoy the episode! Watch on YouTube https://bit.ly/3WDfHjU

    55 min

  3. 12/17/2024

    Ep. 13 Is HR under attack - and is the CIPD having an identity crisis?

    Ho ho ho – it’s time for a festive ding-dong! As HR teams were heading towards a well-earned Christmas break, two stinging critiques of our industry landed in the press, accusing us of being a drag on the UK economy, and – frankly – getting on everyone’s nerves.  The CIPD released a statement that drew mixed responses, including suggestions the industry body has itself lost its way,  and is over-charging members, while failing to deliver what they really need. If you missed the articles by Pamela Dow in the New Statesman and Iain Martin in the Times, you need to catch up. Also check out the response from CIPD CEO Peter Cheese – and the comments below it. In a word: Oof. This story looks set to run well into 2025, and This Isnt Working will keep reporting as it develops. In the meantime, we wanted to mark what’s just happened – which looks like a watershed moment for the UK’s HR industry.  Plus, we have an exclusive update from Pamela, who tells us that she’s pleased to have sparked a healthy debate – and looks looks forward to appearing on the podcast herself in the New Year! In this conversation with Levi Pay, director at higher education training and consultancy agency Plinth House, Tanya de Grunwald asks: • WHAT QUESTIONS DID THE TWO ARTICLES POSE FOR THE UK’S HR INDUSTRY? What were Pamela and Iain’s aims? Were they politically motivated – and was this a co-ordinated attack? • IS ANY OF THE CRITICISM FAIR? For example, have too many HR teams become muddled about whether their priority is their organisation, or their employees? Does a disproportionate focus on wellbeing and performative inclusion activities suggest confusion about HR’s core purpose, and a need for a reset? • HOW DID THE CIPD RESPOND TO THE ARTICLES? Peter Cheese’s long statement was noticeably light on content. Was it even worth making – and what does it say about whether his organisation understands the nature and seriousness of the challenges ahead? • IS THE CIPD FACING AN IDENTITY CRISIS? We highlight some comments posted below Peter’s statement – and some of the most popular are pretty brutal. Is it news to the CIPD that members are grumbling about value for money? How likely is it that we’ll see a change of direction from here? • IS A SCHISM EMERGING BETWEEN HR PROFESSIONALS? While some want to engage with criticism and reflect on improvements and efficiency, others seem keen to dismiss critiques as bad faith or politically motivated, and want to push on as planned. Does this split spell trouble ahead for the UK’s HR industry, in 2025?   Enjoy the episode!    Pamela Dow's piece in the New Statestman https://bit.ly/3BD2G2p Iain Martin's piece in The Times https://bit.ly/49Hszea CIPD / Peter Cheese statement on LinkedIn https://bit.ly/49Iixcx

    49 min

  4. 11/20/2024

    Ep. 12. Are we all racist - or is DEI weird about ethnicity?

    On both sides of the Atlantic, we’ve faced a reckoning on race in the last five years. But have employers’ efforts to address racial discrimination and reduce tensions made things better or worse?  ‘Am I racist?’ – the new film by the American provocateur Matt Walsh – asks whether we have over-corrected, to the point where too many employers now centre race in a way that can feel divisive, crass, offensive and, frankly, a bit strange. Is it time to talk about whether our approach is working – or whether we’ve over-egged it? And, if pretending we are ‘colourblind’ feels odd too, what is the solution? In the second half of this conversation with the writer and commentator James Esses, we discuss race and more, including: - Does some DEI training have a quasi-religious vibe? Are all attendees really welcome to ask questions, or are these sessions only a ‘safe space’ for those with the ‘right’ views? - Just because a DEI tweak is lawful, does that mean it’s ethical? For example, can longer application windows for hard-to-reach groups be justified, when others get less time? Is James right to ask ‘Where do we draw the line?’ - Were employers wrong to trust that the @CIPD’s trans inclusion guide was legally sound? Was it right to suggest that employers should provide two security badges and email addresses for staff who identify as gender fluid, and time off for trans women to attend hair removal appointments – or is it fair for HR professionals to ask whether such requests are reasonable?  - Does wellbeing belong under DEI – and it is fair for employers to expect staff to look after each other’s mental health at work? - Is it hypocritical for Conservative politicians to claim to be ‘anti-DEI’ when David Cameron’s 2005 ‘A-list’ boosted their party’s own demographic diversity – an achievement they seem to be proud of? Enjoy the episode! #DEI #EDI #podcast #business #hr  Watch/listen on YouTube, Spotify or Apple Podcastshttps://linktr.ee/thisisntworking Find James on X @JamesEsses https://x.com/JamesEssesRead James's investigations on Matt Goodwin's Substack https://www.mattgoodwin.org/s/james-esses

    54 min

  5. 11/13/2024

    Ep. 11 Sure your staff like DEI? A truth bomb for employers

    What is fuelling the backlash against DEI – and are some of your staff secretly loving it? Have employers overestimated their staff’s enthusiasm for their efforts to ‘level the playing field’ and be ‘inclusive’ of groups perceived to be ‘marginalised’? This is the first half of a two-part conversation with the writer and commentator James Esses. Best known for his investigations into where good intentions have led to bad practice around diversity, equity and inclusion - particularly around trans inclusion - James makes no secret of the fact that he is not a fan of DEI. So why invite him on a podcast primarily aimed at HR professionals?  Clearly, James doesn’t get a say in shaping employers' policy or strategy – and he doesn’t have deep knowledge of HR. But he provides valuable insight into the minds of the growing number of people who are – let’s say – DEI-sceptics.  Not only are James' views represented among your clients and customers, they will also be increasingly common among your staff (though it’s unlikely that they are telling you that to your face, for various reasons!) Also, James raises some thought-provoking questions about the possible unintended consequences of some DEI work, challenging practitioners to ask whether we're sure we are still on the right track, or whether it’s time to reconsider some of what we are doing. This conversation covers: - What sort of employer practices and policies are people complaining about, to James?  - Would ‘scrapping DEI’ lead to meritocracy - or a severely restricted talent pipeline, sluggish progression and poor retention among certain groups?  - What are the risks to an organisation when poor quality DEI training and policies damage relationships with employees and customers - or when it bleeds into the products or services the organisation produces? (James cites examples at John Lewis, the BBC, the Financial Times and the NHS) - Have staff networks become too powerful – or are there issues at leadership level too? - Does a lack of visible, demographic diversity always indicate a problem that needs fixing? Or should we accept that some groups will always be under-represented in some organisations and industries? - In its current form, is DEI actually delivering diversity or inclusion for organisations? Where is the diversity of opinions? Who is being included – and who is being excluded?  - Why are DEI sceptics like James so allergic to the concept of equity? What are the pitfalls when identifying and addressing advantage and disadvantage? (Thanks to James for talking about his own school years here) - What message does it send to job applicants, when they learn they're in a group thought to need extra support? Is there a danger of fear-mongering and reinforcing a victim culture, by incentivising people to view themselves as disadvantaged and/or at increased risk of discrimination?  - Do employers deserve any sympathy for having been misled about the strength of the business case for demographic diversity? (We discuss the flawed McKinsey reports, and the failure of academic journals to set employers straight) - Is it time for employers to look again at how to broaden their talent pipelines, and retain and progress diverse staff, in ways that feel more positive and avoid categorising people into ‘buckets’? Would a focus on social mobility (rather than demographic diversity) and resilience training (for staff at all levels) be a better way ahead? Enjoy the episode! Watch/listen on YouTube, Spotify or Apple Podcastshttps://linktr.ee/thisisntworking Find James on X @JamesEsses https://x.com/JamesEssesRead James's investigations on Matt Goodwin's Substack https://www.mattgoodwin.org/s/james-esses

    55 min

  6. 10/24/2024

    Ep. 10. Is DEI built on dodgy data?

    Is diversity, equity and inclusion really good for business – or did we conflate it with being ‘the right thing to do’? Has the HR industry been gaslit by fancy consultancies and self-proclaimed experts selling us DEI-related products and services with big claims, but small measurable outcomes? And why are so many DEI professionals allergic to questions about evidence? In this interview with Alex Edmans, Professor of Finance at London Business School, and author of May contain lies: how stories statistics and studies exploit our biases – and what we can do about it, we discuss: - Why is this such a taboo topic – and what happened when Alex first started challenging the orthodoxy that demographic DEI (specifically, race and sex) leads to better business outcomes? - When did a supposedly causal link between DEI and business performance become accepted wisdom – and why was it such an easy ‘sell’ to HR professionals and senior executives?  - What are the flaws in the data and the conclusions we see being drawn from it? Which reports should we believe – and which should we bin? - Why is confirmation bias so powerful when we see data we like – and why are we so weird when we see data we don’t like? - Did McKinsey deliberately mislead HR professionals, to sell their own, expensive business solutions? What lessons should we take from this, about the difference between reports which are really just marketing materials, versus more robust academic studies?  - How can HR professionals feel more confident when scrutinising data, and reduce the likelihood of straying from sound evidence?  - If the link between demographic diversity and business performance is weak (at most), what sort of diversity is good for business?  Enjoy the episode! _ _ _ _ _ _  Alex's website and book: MayContainLies.com  Alex's academic paper: (Diversity) Equity and Inclusion - Edmans, Flammer and Glossner, 2024  Alex on the McKinsey reports

    58 min

  7. 10/08/2024

    Ep. 9. What are employers getting wrong about 'LGBT'?

    Employers - we need to talk about pronouns. And ‘LGBT’. And Pride. And Stonewall. And staff networks. And diversity training that only gives one side of a complex and nuanced story. Oh, and drag queens… This is an interview with Kate Barker, CEO of the UK charity LGB Alliance. So, what are employers getting wrong about ‘LGBT’? The short answer, according to Kate, is that they are failing to consider the full range of perspectives that exists among this group of employees, and to find ways for everyone to feel comfortable at work. During this conversation, we discuss the following: Have employers been too quick to adopt what they thought was a ‘progressive’ and ‘inclusive’ approach to ‘LGBT,’ not realising they have only been listening to certain voices, and looking at this through a somewhat limited lens?  Have ‘LGBT’ staff networks become too political and powerful – and do they really represent the range of views held by the groups they claim to include?  Why do a lot of gay and lesbian employees find their organisation’s Pride celebrations embarrassing – and is it time to dial down the drag queens? What message are employers sending to their lesbian and gay staff by continuing to work with Stonewall, and hiring external ‘gender diversity’ trainers with dubious credentials and content? What are the risks of following their advice about what ‘LGBT inclusion’ should look like in the workplace? Is it time to replace the acronym ‘LGBT’ with a different term? After all, we ditched ‘BAME’ when we realised it was simplistic, unhelpful and crass… Is enthusiasm for 'pronoun declaration' starting to wane, and should employees feel free to not to participate in the invitation to state their beliefs about gender identity in their workplace?  How can employers move away from ‘no debate’ towards calm, professional conversations about how to manage these complex and sensitive issues in the workplace? And what other solutions can Kate offer to employers who are keen to get this right? Not everyone is ready to talk about this stuff – and a few of Kate’s words may sound jarring to some people’s ears. But can employers afford to keep dithering, when resentment is ‘festering’ (Kate’s word) in workplaces around the UK? Is it time for employers to re-think ‘LGBT’, acknowledge that a range of perspectives exists among this group of workers – and agree that it is not acceptable to silence some voices, while celebrating others? Is there a better way ahead, if we start talking? Watch/listen on YouTube, Spotify or Apple Podcastshttps://linktr.ee/thisisntworking

    53 min

  8. 10/03/2024

    Ep. 8. Fixing the DEI damage: What should employers do now?

    How can employers fix the damage caused by bad DEI? And are DEI professionals part of the solution - or the problem? In the third and final part of our conversation with Neil Morrison, Group HR Director at British water company Severn Trent (which has 10,000 employees), we discuss these questions – and much more: - How did we get to a place where the people in charge of ‘inclusion’ at work are silencing questions and dissent from colleagues who don't share their beliefs or political agenda? - Is it ever okay to police people’s language at work – and how should this be done?  - Were too many Heads of DEI hired for their charisma and big ideas, rather than their good judgement and business experience? Did employers rush to 'look good,' fast – rather than taking time to find someone who could balance the needs of the business with the needs of *all* employees (not just those they happen to agree with)? - Is DEI even a 'real thing' - or is it (in Neil's words) a 'false concept', grouping a constellation of employer practices aimed at improving inclusion? If it's not a real thing, how can DEI advocates defend it? - How can HR professionals with doubts about their organisation’s current DEI strategy, direction and leadership raise concerns in a professional way that minimises blow-back against them personally? - Why isn’t Neil more worried about DEI critics such as Matt Walsh, Piers Morgan and the Free Speech Union, channels like Unherd and SpectatorTV, and podcasters like Andrew Gold and the Triggernometry boys?  - What will it look like when employers start fixing the damage caused by bad DEI – both externally and internally? What will be quietly shelved, what will be salvaged – and what ‘performative’ practices will businesses be happy to bin? - If the UK’s DEI industry is set to shrink dramatically, should DEI professionals (including staffers, external consultants, and poor-quality DEI trainers) start considering their career options? Enjoy the episode... PS. For more from Neil, don't miss Episodes 6 and 7! We discuss how DEI went off the rails, and who is to blame for the DEI lawsuits...   *Watch/listen on YouTube, Spotify or Apple Podcasts*https://linktr.ee/thisisntworking

    52 min
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About

The podcast for employers and employees who think it’s time to talk about the failings of workplace culture - and how we can do better. Host: Tanya de Grunwald - Journalist, HR commentator, founder of the Good + Fair Employers Club and careers blog Graduate Fog, and listed as one of HR Magazine’s ’Most Influential Thinkers’

Information

  • Creator
    Tanya de Grunwald
  • Years Active
    2024 - 2025
  • Episodes
    15
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © Copyright 2024 All rights reserved.
  • Show Website
    This Isn’t Working

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