Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career Lenny Rachitsky

Tanguy Crusson is the product lead for Jira Product Discovery at Atlassian. In his more than 10 years at the company, he has been instrumental in taking several new products from zero to one, including HipChat, Statuspage, and Jira Product Discovery. In this episode, we dive deep into the struggles of innovating and building new products inside a large company. Tanguy shares candid stories about what worked, what didn’t, and his many hard-won lessons learned about how to successfully build 0 to 1. We cover:
• Why large companies with so many advantages still fail at creating new products
• Lessons learned from building HipChat
• How to avoid common pitfalls like competitive myopia and premature scaling
• Lessons learned from the acquisition and integration of Statuspage
• Insights from the success of Jira Product Discovery
• Tactics for protecting your “ugly babies”
• The power of “lighthouse users”
• The importance of having a “why now”
• Much more
—
Brought to you by:
• Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security
• WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs
• Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace
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Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-0-to-1-inside-atlassian-tanguy-crusson
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Where to find Tanguy Crusson:
• X: https://x.com/tanguycrusson
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tanguy-crusson-99832a
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Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
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In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Tanguy’s background
(02:30) Tanguy’s journey at Atlassian
(07:03) The challenges of innovating in large companies
(10:42) Atlassian's high bar for excellence 
(12:58) The HipChat story: successes, failures, and lessons learned
(20:47) Lessons learned from building HipChat
(33:49) Statuspage: a journey of perseverance
(39:48) Acquisition challenges and lessons
(47:22) Strategic decisions: build, buy, or partner?
(48:17) Learning to articulate "why now"
(54:08) A quick summary of lessons in this episode
(55:40) The success and pain of launching Jira Product Discovery 
(58:10) Incubating new products: the Point A program
(01:00:13) Failure is the most likely outcome
(01:04:15) Atlassian's four-phase approach to launching new products
(01:09:20) Breaking rules without breaking trust
(01:16:16) Early success and team autonomy
(01:17:22) Innovating without disrupting existing customers
(01:23:17) The Lighthouse Users program
(01:30:00) Protecting and nurturing new ideas
(01:36:14) Balancing innovation with personal well-being
(01:38:17) A reminder to look after yourself
(01:42:06) Lightning round
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Referenced:
• Atlassian: https://www.atlassian.com/
• HipChat: https://community.atlassian.com/t5/Hipchat/ct-p/hipchat
• Stride: https://community.atlassian.com/t5/Stride/ct-p/stride
• Statuspage: https://www.atlassian.com/software/statuspage
• Opsgenie: https://www.atlassian.com/software/opsgenie
• Jira Product Discovery: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira/product-discovery
• HipChat billboard: https://x.com/HubSpot/status/654696998126272512
• Announcing our new partnership with Slack: https://www.atlassian.com/blog/announcements/new-atlassian-slack-partnership
• Slack shows it’s worried about Microsoft Teams with a full-page newspaper ad: https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/2/13497766/slack-microsoft-teams-new-york-times-ad
• What Is ‘Dogfooding’?: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/14/business/dogfooding.html
• Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira
• Confluence: https://www.atlassian.com/software/confluence
• PagerDuty: https://www.pagerduty.com/
• New Relic: https://newrelic.com/
• BigPanda: https://www.bigpanda.io/
• Transparent Uptime: http://www.transparentuptime.com/
• Vision, conviction, and hype: How to build 0 to 1 inside a company | Mihika Kapoor (Produ

Jeffrey Pfeffer teaches the single most popular (and somewhat controversial) class at Stanford’s Graduate School of Business: The Paths to Power. He’s also the author of 16 books, including 7 Rules of Power: Surprising—But True—Advice on How to Get Things Done and Advance Your Career. He has taught at Harvard, the London Business School, and IESE and has written for publications like Fortune and the Washington Post. Recognized by the Academy of Management and listed in the Thinkers50 Hall of Fame, Jeffrey also serves on several corporate and nonprofit boards, bringing his expertise to global audiences through seminars and executive education. In our conversation, we discuss:
• Jeffrey’s seven rules of power
• How individuals can acquire and use power in business
• Networking, and how to do it effectively
• How to build a non-cringe personal brand
• How to increase your influence to amplify your impact
• Examples and stories of people building power
• Tradeoffs and challenges that come with power
—
Brought to you by:
• Uizard—AI-powered prototyping for visionary product leaders
• Webflow—The web experience platform
• Heap—Cross-platform product analytics that converts, engages, and retains customers
—
Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-paths-to-power-jeffrey-pfeffer
—
Where to find Jeffrey Pfeffer:
• X: https://x.com/JeffreyPfeffer
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffrey-pfeffer-57a01b6/
• Website: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/
• Podcast: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/pfeffer-on-power/
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Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
—
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Jeffrey’s background 
(02:54) Understanding discomfort with power
(04:56) Power skills for underrepresented groups
(07:51) The popularity and challenges of Jeffrey’s class at Stanford
(12:21) The seven rules of power
(13:03) Success stories from his course
(15:43) Building a personal brand
(21:11) Getting out of your own way
(26:04) Breaking the rules to gain power
(30:34) Networking relentlessly
(40:10) Why Jeffrey says to “pursue weak ties”
(42:00) Using your power to build more power
(44:34) The importance of appearance and body language
(47:15) Mastering the art of presentation
(55:12) Examples of homework assignments that Jeffrey gives students
(59:11) People will forget how you acquired power
(01:03:58) More good people need to have power
(01:10:49) The price of power and autonomy
(01:17:13) A homework assignment for you
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Referenced:
• Gerald Ferris on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gerald-r-ferris-5816b1b5/
• Political Skill at Work: https://tarjomefa.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/4173-engilish.pdf
• Laura Esserman, MD: https://cancer.ucsf.edu/people/esserman.laura
• Taylor Swift’s website: https://www.taylorswift.com/
• Matthew 7: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207&version=NIV
• Mother Teresa quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/2887-if-you-judge-people-you-have-no-time-to-love
• Paths to Power course description: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Pfeffer-OB377-Course-Outline-2018.pdf
• 7 Rules of Power: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/books/7-rules-of-power/
• The Knowing-Doing Gap: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/books/the-knowing-doing-gap/
• Derek Kan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/derekkan/
• Mitt Romney on X: https://x.com/mittromney
• Elaine Chao’s website: https://www.elainechao.com/
• Tony Hsieh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Hsieh
• Zappos: https://www.zappos.com/
• How I Did It: Zappos’s CEO on Going to Extremes for Customers: https://hbr.org/2010/07/how-i-did-it-zapposs-ceo-on-going-to-extremes-for-customers
• McKinsey & Company: https://www.mckinsey.com/
• Bain & Company: https://www.bain.com/
• BCG: https://www.bcg.com/
• Keith

Uri Levine is the co-founder of Waze, the world’s largest community-based traffic and navigation app, acquired by Google for over $1 billion. He’s also founded nine other companies, been on the board of 20 companies, and advised more than 50 companies. He’s most recently the author of Fall in Love with the Problem, Not the Solution: A Handbook for Entrepreneurs, hailed by Steve Wozniak as the “Bible for entrepreneurs.” Uri is dedicated to creating impactful startups that solve real-world problems and has seen everything from failure to moderate success to big success. In our conversation, we dig into:
• Why falling in love with the problem is key to startup success
• The phases of the startup journey and how to navigate them
• Why firing is more important than hiring
• How Waze iterated to achieve product-market fit
• Tactics for telling a compelling story when fundraising
• Much more
—
Brought to you by:
• Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security
• Mercury—The powerful and intuitive way for ambitious companies to bank
• LinkedIn Ads—Reach professionals and drive results for your business
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Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-from-uri-levine
—
Where to find Uri Levine:
• X: https://twitter.com/urilevine1
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/uri-levine
• Website: https://urilevine.com/
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Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
—
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Uri’s background
(02:50) Falling in love with the problem
(09:03) Signs this is a big enough problem
(10:54) The importance of passion
(12:06) A pivot example
(14:01) Where to find startup ideas
(21:57) Finding product-market fit at Waze
(29:45) The different phases of a startup journey
(36:47) What investors don’t want to hear
(39:53) Fundraising tips
(48:02) How to make your presentations stronger
(50:32) A wild fundraising story
(53:46) Firing and hiring
(59:50) The 30-day test
(01:04:12) Understanding users
(01:12:10) Talking to the right users
(01:15:36) Lightning round
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Referenced:
• Fall in Love with the Problem, Not the Solution: A Handbook for Entrepreneurs: https://www.amazon.com/Fall-Love-Problem-Solution-Entrepreneurs/dp/1637741987
• Waze: https://www.waze.com/
• Ben Horowitz on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/behorowitz/
• Ben Horowitz quote: https://quotefancy.com/quote/1635284/Ben-Horowitz-As-a-startup-CEO-I-slept-like-a-baby-I-woke-up-every-2-hours-and-cried
• Michael Jordan quote: https://www.forbes.com/quotes/11194/#:~:text=I've%20lost%20almost%20300,that%20is%20why%20I%20succeed.
• Steph Curry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Curry
• How Airbnb Used Word of Mouth to Change the Travel Industry Forever: https://truested.com/story/airbnb
• Space Mountain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Mountain_(Disneyland)
• How Netflix builds a culture of excellence | Elizabeth Stone (CTO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-netflix-builds-a-culture-of-excellence
• Steve Wozniak on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/wozniaksteve/
• Uri’s post about the conference in Guatemala with Steve Wozniak: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/uri-levine_jewishnewyear-speakers-book-activity-6980089544079486976-0ADa/
• Leonardo da Vinci quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9010638-simplicity-is-the-ultimate-sophistication-when-once-you-have-tasted
• Geoffrey Moore on finding your beachhead, crossing the chasm, and dominating a market: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/geoffrey-moore-on-finding-your-beachhead
• Nana Korobi Ya Oki: https://ikigaitribe.com/vlog/nana-korobi-ya-oki/
• That Will Never Work: The Birth of Netflix and the Amazing Life of an Idea: https://www.amazon.com/That-Will-Never-Work-Netflix/dp/0316530204
• Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones: https://www.a

Cameron Adams is the co-founder and chief product officer of Canva. Canva is one of the world’s most valuable private software companies, used by 95% of Fortune 500 companies. Since its launch in 2013, Canva has grown to over 150 million monthly users in more than 190 countries, generating $2.3 billion in annual revenue. Prior to Canva, Cameron ran a design consultancy, worked at Google on Google Wave, and founded the email startup Fluent. He is also an author of five web design books and a regular speaker at global conferences. In our conversation, we discuss:
• Why they spent a year building their minimum viable product (MVP) before launch
• Why Canva has no managers, and their unique approach to coaching and performance reviews
• Why they encourage employees to “give away their Legos”
• Insights into Canva’s SEO growth strategy
• Their three-pillar framework for integrating AI into their product
• Stories from the early days
—
Brought to you by:
• WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs
• Attio—The powerful, flexible CRM for fast-growing startups
• Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security.
—
Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-canva-with-cameron-adams
—
Where to find Cameron Adams:
• X: https://twitter.com/themaninblue
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/themaninblue
• Website: https://themaninblue.com/
—
Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
—
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Cameron’s background
(02:00) Reflecting on the success of Canva
(04:50) Reflecting on hard times
(10:01) Canva’s product-obsessed culture
(12:02) Why they prioritize internal promotions and hires
(13:56) What makes Canva unique
(16:31) The concept of giving away your Legos
(21:44) Why Canva has no managers
(24:29) Product management at Canva
(27:56) Reflections on working with a married couple
(30:37) Why they spent a year building their MVP before launch
(33:49) Advice for building an MVP
(41:23) Canva’s onboarding transformation
(44:25) Canva’s SEO strategy
(50:37) The success of Canva’s freemium strategy
(54:24) Integrating AI into Canva’s product
(01:01:50) Where to find Cameron
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Referenced:
• Canva: https://www.canva.com/
• Melanie Perkins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanieperkins
• Cliff Obrecht on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cliff-obrecht-79ba9920
• Jennie Rogerson, Head of People, LinkedIn post about “season opener” events: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/jennierogerson_season-opener-is-one-of-my-favourite-events-activity-7006815614556135424-73bD/
• Game of Thrones on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/game-of-thrones
• Woodstock: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodstock
• ‘Give Away Your Legos’ and Other Commandments for Scaling Startups: https://review.firstround.com/give-away-your-legos-and-other-commandments-for-scaling-startups/
• Minimum viable product (MVP): https://www.productboard.com/glossary/minimum-viable-product-mvp
• Canva’s SEO Strategy Is Elite: https://thegrowthplaybook.substack.com/p/canvas-seo-strategy-is-elite
• The SEO Strategy That Led Canva to a $40 Billion Valuation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INyGKt6LAqM
• Andrianes Pinantoan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrianes/
• Canva Create: https://www.canva.com/canva-create/
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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
—
Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.


Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Matt Dixon is one of the world’s foremost experts in sales and the author of The Challenger Sale, which sold over a million copies worldwide and was a #1 Amazon and Wall Street Journal bestseller. His most recent book, The JOLT Effect, focuses on overcoming customer indecision—one of the biggest challenges to closing deals. Outside of writing, Matt co-founded DCM Insights, a boutique consultancy helping organizations understand customer behavior, and is a frequent contributor to the Harvard Business Review, with more than 20 print and online articles to his credit. In our conversation, we discuss:
• Why 40% to 60% of qualified sales opportunities are lost due to customer indecision
• Why dialing up FOMO doesn’t work, and what to do instead
• The “pings and echoes” technique to catch issues early
• The JOLT method for overcoming indecision
• Key lessons from The Challenger Sale
• Practical examples of how to apply these principles to close more deals
—
Brought to you by:
• Enterpret—Transform customer feedback into product growth
• Webflow—The web experience platform
• Heap—Cross-platform product analytics that converts, engages, and retains customers
—
Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/close-more-deals-matt-dixon
—
Where to find Matt Dixon:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewxdixon
• Website: https://www.jolteffect.com/
—
Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
—
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Matt’s background
(01:57) The research behind Matt’s books
(06:08) Insights from The JOLT Effect
(10:15) FOMO vs. FOMU
(18:18) An example of selling software
(26:04) The JOLT method Step 1: Judge their level of indecision
(29:41) The “pings and echoes” technique
(34:49) Step 2: Offer a recommendation
(38:36) Step 3: Limit the exploration
(41:43) Step 4: Take risk off the table
(45:58) When to hit the pause button with a customer
(47:27) Insights from The Challenger Sale
(49:07) An example of a challenger sale
(55:23) Where to find Matt
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Referenced:
• A step-by-step guide to crafting a sales pitch that wins | April Dunford (author of Obviously Awesome and Sales Pitch): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-step-by-step-guide-to-crafting
• The Challenger Sale: Taking Control of the Customer Conversation: https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Sale-Control-Customer-Conversation/dp/0670922854
• The JOLT Effect: How High Performers Overcome Customer Indecision: https://www.amazon.com/JOLT-Effect-Performers-Overcome-Indecision/dp/0593538102
• Gartner acquires CEB: https://www.gartner.com/en/about/acquisitions/history/ceb-acquisition
• Tiger King on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81115994
• Why sourdough went viral: https://www.economist.com/1843/2020/08/04/why-sourdough-went-viral
• Neil Rackham: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Rackham
• Status quo bias in decision-making: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_quo_bias
• Omission bias: https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/omission-bias
• Gartner Magic Quadrant & Critical Capabilities: https://www.gartner.com/en/research/magic-quadrant
• Dunning-Kruger effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
• Stop Losing Sales to Customer Indecision: https://hbr.org/2022/06/stop-losing-sales-to-customer-indecision
• Dentsply Sirona: https://www.dentsplysirona.com/
• “We happy?” Briefcase scene from Tarantino’s Pulp Fiction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGchDuOpbhE
• Nupro Freedom Cordless Prophy System: https://www.dentsplysirona.com/en-us/discover/discover-by-category/preventive/hygiene-handpieces.html
—
Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
—
Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.


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Bangaly Kaba was an early growth PM at Facebook, head of growth at Instagram, and VP of Product at Instacart and is currently Director of Product at YouTube overseeing a global team working on creator monetization. Bangaly has also been a growth advisor to dozens of companies, including Twitter, on the board of multiple companies, and is an active angel investor. In our conversation, we discuss:
• A simple framework for choosing where to work and what to work on
• The importance of “understand work”
• The “adjacent users” theory and how it can help you drive growth
• Advice for coaching product managers
• Invaluable lessons from his time at Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube
• Much more
—
Brought to you by:
• Uizard—AI-powered prototyping for visionary product leaders
• Mercury—The powerful and intuitive way for ambitious companies to bank
• Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security.
—
Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/frameworks-for-growing-your-career-bangaly-kaba
—
Where to find Bangaly Kaba:
• X: https://twitter.com/iambangaly
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/iambangaly/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iambangaly/
—
Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
—
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Bangaly’s background
(06:31) Choosing where to work and what to work on
(08:39) The impact factor
(10:53) Evaluating the environment
(15:53) The manager component
(18:27) The skills part of the equation
(23:49) Advice on finding a mentor
(25:42) The power of “understand work”
(31:17) Operationalizing understand work
(37:55) Balancing understand work
(41:25) Managing complex change
(45:26) Effective management of product managers
(51:35) The role of product managers as coaches and team leaders
(54:52) Driving growth through flywheels and value proposition
(01:03:14) Understanding adjacent users
(01:08:41) The role of partnerships and SEO in Instagram’s early growth
(01:16:08) The secret behind Instagram’s growth
(01:25:37) Lessons from Facebook
(01:29:15) Failure corner
(01:31:58) Lightning round
—
Referenced:
• Impact = Environment x Skills: How to Make Career Decisions: https://www.reforge.com/blog/how-to-make-career-decisions
• Thinking beyond frameworks | Casey Winters (Pinterest, Eventbrite, Airbnb, Tinder, Canva, Reddit, Grubhub): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/thinking-beyond-frameworks-casey
• Casey Winters’s blog: https://caseyaccidental.com/
• Ben Thompson’s newsletter: https://stratechery.com/about/
• Elena Verna on how B2B growth is changing, product-led growth, product-led sales, why you should go freemium not trial, what features to make free, and much more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/elena-verna-on-why-every-company
• George Lee on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/geolee/
• Bangaly Kaba: The Path to 1 Billion: Lessons Learned from Growing Instagram—CXL LIVE 2018: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9ZHlb6kj_E
• What Is ‘Dogfooding’?: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/14/business/dogfooding.html
• Bloom’s taxonomy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom%27s_taxonomy
• Kevin Systrom on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinsystrom/
• Mike Krieger on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikekrieger/
• LeBron James: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LeBron_James
• Kobe Bryant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobe_Bryant
•  Mike Krzyzewski: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Krzyzewski
• John Calipari: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calipari
• Stripe: https://stripe.com/
• Chief: https://chief.com/
• Jobs to be done framework: https://jobs-to-be-done.com/jobs-to-be-done-a-framework-for-customer-needs-c883cbf61c90
• The Adjacent User: https://brianbalfour.com/quick-takes/the-adjacent-user
• How the biggest consumer apps got t