The Nextlander Podcast

The Nextlander Podcast
The Nextlander Podcast

Longtime friends and games media colleagues Vinny Caravella, Brad Shoemaker, and Alex Navarro share their combined decades of knowledge, expertise, and passion for games with weekly discussions about what they're playing, what's happening in the industry, and whatever else they're up to.

  1. Three Games Makes a Launch Lineup

    6 DAYS AGO

    Three Games Makes a Launch Lineup

    Between the Switch 2's arrival, hours of Summer Game Fest streams, and Brad's return from checking out many games (and one above-it-all cat) in Los Angeles, a single podcast episode can barely contain all this discussion, but we do our best to cram in chat about Mario Kart World, Resident Evil: Requiem, Lumines Arise, an impromptu ranking of Nintendo console launches, and a bunch of other stuff. CHAPTERS (00:00:00) NOTE: Some timecodes may be inaccurate for versions other than the ad-free Patreon version due to dynamic ad insertions. Please use caution if skipping around to avoid spoilers. Thanks for listening. (00:00:10) Intro (00:01:07) Our post Switch 2 Launch world! (00:03:55) Something beautiful actually happened in LA! (00:07:22) Let's just into the Switch 2 and all its glory (00:27:55) Mario Kart World  |  [Nintendo Switch 2]  |  Jun 05, 2025 (00:40:34) Ranking of Nintendo Launches (00:55:36) First Break (00:57:39) Brad's hands-on Summer Game Fest games! (00:58:34) Lumines: Arise  |  [PlayStation 5, PlayStation VR2, PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  Q4 2025 (01:09:50) Pragmata  |  [PlayStation 5, PC (Microsoft Windows), Xbox Series X|S]  |  2026 (01:17:00) Onimusha: Way of the Sword  |  [PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S, PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  2026 (01:23:05) Resident Evil: Requiem  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  Feb 27, 2026 (01:31:59) Shinobi: Art of Vengeance  |  [Nintendo Switch, PlayStation 4, PlayStation 5, PC (Microsoft Windows), Xbox One, Xbox Series X|S]  |  Aug 29, 2025 (01:41:14) Second Break (01:41:19) The Various Not-E3 Streams (01:41:52) Sony State of Play (01:42:59) Romeo is a Dead Man  |  [PlayStation 5, PC (Microsoft Windows), Xbox Series X|S]  |  2026 (01:44:00) Bloodstained: The Scarlet Engagement  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  2026 (01:45:11) Final Fantasy Tactics: The Ivalice Chronicles  |  [Xbox Series X|S, Nintendo Switch, PC (Microsoft Windows), Nintendo Switch 2, PlayStation 4, PlayStation 5]  |  Sep 30, 2025 (01:46:52) Mortal Kombat: Legacy Kollection  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 4, PlayStation 5, Nintendo Switch, Nintendo Switch 2, Xbox Series X|S]  |  2025 (01:58:14) Marvel Tokon: Fighting Souls  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5]  |  2026 (02:02:40) 007: First Light  |  [Nintendo Switch 2, PC (Microsoft Windows), Xbox Series X|S, PlayStation 5]  |  2026 (02:05:09) Thief VR: Legacy of Shadow  |  [SteamVR, PlayStation VR2, Meta Quest 2, Meta Quest 3]  |  2025 (02:06:12) Summer Game Fest Showcase (02:06:31) Felt That: Boxing  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  TBD (02:09:32) ARC Raiders  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  Oct 30, 2025 (02:10:45) LEGO Voyagers  |  [PlayStation 5, PlayStation 4, Xbox Series X|S, PC (Microsoft Windows), Nintendo Switch]  |  TBD (02:11:27) Ill  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), Xbox Series X|S, PlayStation 5]  |  TBD (02:12:02) Wu-Tang: Rise of the Deceiver  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  TBD (02:14:34) End of Abyss  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), Xbox Series X|S, PlayStation 5]  |  2026 (02:15:38) Stranger Than Heaven (02:18:34) Infinitesimals  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  2026 (02:19:16) Wildgate  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  Jul 24, 2025 (02:20:25) Xbox Games Showcase (02:20:46) Keeper  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), Xbox Series X|S]  |  Oct 17, 2025 (02:22:33) The Outer Worlds 2  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  Oct 29, 2025 (02:23:01) Resonance: A Plague Tale Legacy  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  2026 (02:23:41) Super Meat Boy 3D  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  Q1 2026 (02:25:42) Clockwork Revolution  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), Xbox Series X|S]  |  TBD (02:27:13) Grounded 2 (Early Access) |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), Xbox Series X|S]  |  Jul 29, 2025 (02:27:33) There Are No Ghosts at the Grand  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), Xbox Series X|S]  |  2026 (02:28:59) Persona 4 Revival  |  [PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S, PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  TBD (02:29:37) At Fate's End  |  [Xbox Series X|S, PlayStation 5, PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  2026 (02:29:53) High on Life 2  |  [Xbox Series X|S, PlayStation 5, PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  Q1 2026 (02:31:35) Invincible Vs.  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), Xbox Series X|S, PlayStation 5]  |  2026 (02:32:25) Call of Duty: Black Ops 7  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 4, PlayStation 5, Xbox One, Xbox Series X|S]  |  TBD (02:37:52) Day of the Devs (02:37:59) Big Walk  |  [Mac, PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  2026 (02:39:13) Please, Watch the Artwork  |  [Linux, Nintendo Switch, Android, Mac, iOS, PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  TBD (02:40:27) Almost a drama-free experience on the stages... almost (02:41:14) Snap & Grab  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), Xbox Series X|S, PlayStation 5]  |  2026 (02:43:22) Ratatan  |  [Nintendo Switch, Xbox Series X|S, PlayStation 5, PlayStation 4]  |  2025 (02:45:41) Ball x Pit  |  [Nintendo Switch, PC (Microsoft Windows), Xbox Series X|S]  |  2025 (02:46:47) Even more showcases are popping up! (02:49:32) Very brief updates on games we continue to play (02:50:14) Wrapping up and thanks (02:52:22) Mysterious Benefactor Shoutouts (02:54:06) NXL is made possible from supporters like you! (02:55:29) See ya!

    2h 56m
  2. How Tight Is Your Frunk?

    5 JUN

    How Tight Is Your Frunk?

    Based on feedback from last week this might just be a car podcast now, but we also discuss the Switch 2 launch news that's starting to trickle out, Brad's deep dive into Elden Ring Nightreign, details on EA's cancelled Black Panther game, new footage from The Witcher 4, some questionably timed State of Play predictions, and more. CHAPTERS (00:00:00) NOTE: Some timecodes may be inaccurate for versions other than the ad-free Patreon version due to dynamic ad insertions. Please use caution if skipping around to avoid spoilers. Thanks for listening. (00:00:10) Intro (00:01:16) The Switch 2 is out in the wild and on the internet (00:06:01) Yes, for the Wii Wii (00:07:03) If you hear something, say something (00:08:18) Dogs are gonna chase squirrels if you let them! (00:10:45) Elden Ring: Nightreign  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), Xbox One, PlayStation 4, PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  May 30, 2025 (00:40:57) First Break (00:43:42) Date Everything!  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), Nintendo Switch, PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  Jun 17, 2025 (00:51:44) Clair Obscur: Expedition 33  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  Apr 24, 2025 (00:59:22) Hollow Knight  |  [Linux, PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  Feb 24, 2017 (01:02:52) Second Break (01:02:57) News (01:03:37) The Switch 2 is here (01:09:01) Summer Game Fest and Not-E3 happenings (01:12:29) IO's new James Bond game has a title (01:18:03) The Witcher 4 and Unreal Engine 5 (01:26:53) More reporting on EA canceling its Black Panther game (01:33:34) Emails OR more a summary of the car emails we have received (01:51:52) Nextlander content updates (01:54:37) Wrapping up and thanks (01:58:56) Mysterious Benefactor Shoutouts (02:02:02) Our Switch 2 and Summer Game Fest plans (02:04:33) See ya!

    2h 5m
  3. Mark Ruffalo as the Dung Eater

    29 MAY

    Mark Ruffalo as the Dung Eater

    It's time to talk into microphones about video games (and other things) once again, with chat this week about To a T, TMNT Tactical Takedown, Siegecaster, the big Fortnite buy, the cancellation of Battle Aces and EA's Black Panther, USB mouse support on the Switch 2, Alex Garland's Elden Ring, the most Peter Molyneux quote ever, Vinny's car hunt, and more. CHAPTERS (00:00:00) NOTE: Some timecodes may be inaccurate for versions other than the ad-free Patreon version due to dynamic ad insertions. Please use caution if skipping around to avoid spoilers. Thanks for listening. (00:00:10) Intro (00:00:59) Probably gonna need a new car in the near-ish future (00:17:33) Is Alex also ready for a car refresh? (00:25:31) The video games! (00:25:35) To a T  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  May 28, 2025 (00:39:08) Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Tactical Takedown  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  May 22, 2025 (00:47:49) First Break (00:49:19) Siegecaster  |  [Mac, PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  May 06, 2025 (00:58:16) Warhammer 40,000: Boltgun – Words of Vengeance  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  May 22, 2025 (01:01:19) Sunderfolk  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S, Nintendo Switch]  |  Apr 23, 2025 (01:05:05) Fortnite: Chapter 6 - Mini Season 1: Galactic Battle  |  [iOS, Nintendo Switch, PlayStation 4, PlayStation 5, Xbox One, Xbox Series X|S, PC (Microsoft Windows), Android]  |  May 02, 2025 (01:11:38) Helldivers 2: Heart of Democracy  |  [PlayStation 5, PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  May 20, 2025 (01:16:44) Second Break (01:16:48) Maybe Persona 4 is getting a remake? Maybe? (01:17:47) EA cancels Black Panther and closes studio (01:31:15) Battle Aces devs announce it is done (01:36:22) Randy Pitchford and the price of video games (01:47:07) Mario Kart World could have been a Switch 1 game (01:51:31) The Switch 2 will support a USB mouse (01:55:00) How about an Elden Ring movie? (01:59:59) Peter Molyneux speaks about Milo (02:08:18) Emails (02:17:00) Wrapping up and thanks (02:20:23) Mysterious Benefactor Shoutouts (02:21:51) Nextlander content updates (02:25:14) See ya!

    2h 25m
  4. The Return of Edge Casey

    22 MAY

    The Return of Edge Casey

    TWO HUNDRED EPISODES? We don't believe it either, but believe this: We cover everything from Sunderfolk to Deliver at All Costs, Fortnite's AI Darth Vader mess, plagiarism in Marathon, Switch 2 launch coverage, the Summer Game Fest vibe, and plenty more on this week's show. CHAPTERS (00:00:00) NOTE: Some timecodes may be inaccurate for versions other than the ad-free Patreon version due to dynamic ad insertions. Please use caution if skipping around to avoid spoilers. Thanks for listening. (00:00:10) Intro (00:02:02) How do we make jury duty easier and better? (00:07:25) Clair Obscur: Expedition 33  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  Apr 24, 2025 (00:21:31) Hollow Knight  |  [Linux, PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  Feb 24, 2017 (00:24:05) Sunderfolk  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S, Nintendo Switch]  |  Apr 23, 2025 (00:31:47) First Break (00:31:51) Deliver At All Costs  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  May 22, 2025 (00:41:53) Mars Attracts (Early Access) |  [PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  2025 (00:43:47) Assassin's Creed Shadows  |  [Mac, PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  Mar 20, 2025 (00:46:08) Revenge of the Savage Planet  |  [Xbox Series X|S, PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5]  |  May 08, 2025 (00:47:55) Fortnite: Chapter 6 - Mini Season 1: Galactic Battle  |  [iOS, Nintendo Switch, PlayStation 4, PlayStation 5, Xbox One, Xbox Series X|S, PC (Microsoft Windows), Android]  |  May 02, 2025 (00:50:52) Darth Vader wants to talk to you about your Fortnite performance (01:15:22) Doom: The Dark Ages  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  May 15, 2025 (01:16:51) Second Break (01:16:56) Unlicensed artwork found in Marathon (01:27:53) Switch 2 availability updates and more (01:41:15) Jade Raymond has left PlayStation's Haven Studios (01:46:34) SNK CEO steps down (01:51:15) Microsoft issues a statement regarding its contracts with Israel (01:54:51) Brian Eno also issues a statement (01:59:39) What's the 'vibe' going into Summer Game Fest? (02:04:05) Emails (02:14:25) Nextlander Content Updates (02:16:18) Go check out The Watchcast (02:17:42) Wrapping up and thanks (02:19:12) Mysterious Benefactor Shoutouts (02:22:16) See ya!

    2h 23m
  5. Need for Affleck

    15 MAY

    Need for Affleck

    This week: There's a new Doom game out and court has adjourned long enough for Brad to deliver a verdict on it, Vinny clicks around in Loco Motive, we debate the coming of the FRPG era, the Switch 2 is getting some Very Important Features, Walton Goggins has a business he'd like you to know about, and a bunch more. CHAPTERS (00:00:00) NOTE: Some timecodes may be inaccurate for versions other than the ad-free Patreon version due to dynamic ad insertions. Please use caution if skipping around to avoid spoilers. Thanks for listening. (00:00:10) Intro (00:03:40) Nothing stops the Giant Bomb? (00:20:24) Doom: The Dark Ages  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  May 15, 2025 (00:44:05) First Break (00:44:09) This here pile of games, it is large (00:44:47) Clair Obscur: Expedition 33  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  Apr 24, 2025 (00:49:16) Hollow Knight  |  [Linux, PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  Feb 24, 2017 (00:50:47) Revenge of the Savage Planet  |  [Xbox Series X|S, PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5]  |  May 08, 2025 (00:54:28) Loco Motive  |  [Nintendo Switch, PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  Nov 21, 2024 (00:57:35) What is a JRPG? What is Anime? What is anything, really? (01:03:42) Order of operations for completing games (01:04:19) Alex's remaining stack of games (01:04:30) Assassin's Creed Shadows  |  [Mac, PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  Mar 20, 2025 (01:15:27) Some future games on the horizon (01:18:32) Second Break (01:18:37) News (01:19:22) The Switch 2 is still coming and there are updates! (01:33:01) The Top Games on the PS5 (01:38:55) Netflix removing Bandersnatch (01:45:41) Emails (02:09:01) Wrapping up and thanks (02:11:40) Mysterious Benefactor Shoutouts (02:13:18) What's up with Walton Goggins? (02:17:04) Nextlander content updates (02:17:44) See ya!This week: There's a new Doom game out and court has adjourned long enough for Brad to deliver a verdict on it, Vinny clicks around in Loco Motive, we debate the coming of the FRPG era, the Switch 2 is getting some Very Important Features, Walton Goggins has a business he'd like you to know about, and a bunch more.

    2h 18m
  6. I'm Worth It!

    8 MAY

    I'm Worth It!

    We attempt to grapple with the job losses at Polygon and Giant Bomb (and dig into some of our own time at GB) this week, before diving into the ARC Raiders tech test, the end of Lost Records, Vinny's deepening love of Hollow Knight, the increasing absurdity of Skin Deep, the GTA 6 delay and new trailer, increasing Xbox prices, Gears on PlayStation, and some housekeeping notes for the next few weeks of Nextlander (yes, Brad's going pro in Fortnite). Advertise on The Nextlander Podcast at Audioboom, or support us on Patreon! CHAPTERS (00:00:00) NOTE: Some timecodes may be inaccurate for versions other than the ad-free Patreon version due to dynamic ad insertions. Please use caution if skipping around to avoid spoilers. Thanks for listening. (00:00:10) Intro (00:02:07) Well, Brad got picked for jury duty. Officially! (00:07:15) The Giant Bomb and Polygon news (00:07:57) Polygon being sold and the massive staff cuts. (00:14:36) What is and was Giant Bomb and its survival over the years. (01:22:26) First Break (01:25:02) The video games (01:25:57) ARC Raiders  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  2025 (01:46:45) Revenge of the Savage Planet  |  [Xbox Series X|S, PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5]  |  May 08, 2025 (01:55:05) Skin Deep  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  Apr 30, 2025 (01:59:15) Clair Obscur: Expedition 33  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  Apr 24, 2025 (02:00:05) Hollow Knight  |  [Linux, PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  Feb 24, 2017 (02:05:50) Lost Records: Bloom & Rage  |  [Xbox Series X|S, PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5]  |  Feb 18, 2025 (02:11:30) Fortnite: Chapter 6 - Season 3: Galactic Battle  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  May 02, 2025 (02:25:05) Second Break (02:25:09) Grand Theft Auto VI has been delayed (02:36:13) The Xbox is about to get way more expensive (02:47:16) Gears of War: Reloaded is coming and to a PS5 at that! (02:51:11) Remember that Apple and Epic lawsuit? (02:56:45) Nextlander content updates (03:00:00) Wrapping up and thanks (03:00:20) Mysterious Benefactor Shoutouts (03:02:17) Speeding along justice for the podcast?! Never. (03:03:24) See ya!

    3h 4m
  7. Mind Your Ps and Es

    1 MAY

    Mind Your Ps and Es

    We're awash in games this week with Skin Deep, Clair Obscur, the Marathon alpha, and a bunch of other stuff we're continuing to play. In the news, the cancelled Titanfall extraction shooter and more hardware makers like 8BitDo suspending shipments into the United States. Then an emails section flush with the straight scoop on subjects like being a Green Bay Packers shareholder, doing publicity for Banksy, the fate of the Antarctic N64, and more. That's a lot of podcast! Advertise on The Nextlander Podcast at Audioboom, or support us on Patreon! CHAPTERS (00:00:00) NOTE: Some timecodes may be inaccurate for versions other than the ad-free Patreon version due to dynamic ad insertions. Please use caution if skipping around to avoid spoilers. Thanks for listening. (00:00:10) Intro (00:01:03) There are a lot of video games out there... (00:03:35) Skin Deep  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  Apr 30, 2025 (00:24:48) First Break (00:24:52) Marathon  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  Sep 23, 2025 (00:37:25) Clair Obscur: Expedition 33  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  Apr 24, 2025 (00:47:43) The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion Remastered  |  [PlayStation 5, PC (Microsoft Windows), Xbox Series X|S]  |  Apr 22, 2025 (01:03:04) Hollow Knight  |  [Linux, PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  Feb 24, 2017 (01:08:59) Bionic Bay  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5]  |  Apr 17, 2025 (01:09:14) Blue Prince  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  Apr 10, 2025 (01:14:24) Creepy Redneck Dinosaur Mansion 3  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  Apr 22, 2025\ (01:16:41) Second Break (01:17:45) The Switch 2 came and went, but when will it come again? (01:29:13) Companies begin messaging consumers around U.S. tariffs (01:45:26) EA makes big job cuts and cancels games (02:01:11) Emails (02:19:23) Nextlander content updates (02:21:31) Mysterious Benefactor Shoutouts (02:23:22) Thanks and wrapping up (02:26:20) Quick Schedule Change! (02:27:23) See ya!

    2h 28m
  8. He's Got Gambling Hair

    24 APR

    He's Got Gambling Hair

    We played a slew of games this week like Tempest Rising, Creepy Redneck Dinosaur Mansion 3, Bionic Bay, and more Blue Prince and Battle Aces, plus: the Switch 2 preorder plan of attack, Ghost of Yotei gets a date, Michael Bay's OutRun is going to be the biggest movie of the world, the high-risk world of NFL draft betting, and more. Advertise on The Nextlander Podcast at Audioboom, or support us on Patreon! CHAPTERS (00:00:00) NOTE: Some timecodes may be inaccurate for versions other than the ad-free Patreon version due to dynamic ad insertions. Please use caution if skipping around to avoid spoilers. Thanks for listening. (00:00:10) Intro (00:01:08) Is there a Draft in here?! (00:06:40) Let me tell you... about my dirt clumps (00:08:05) Is that thing Turbocharged? Only on the floor model. (00:10:18) Are there any NOT billionaire owners for sports teams? (00:14:15) Blue Prince  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5, Xbox Series X|S]  |  Apr 10, 2025 (00:23:06) [SPOILERS] Let's REALLY talk about Blue Prince! (00:52:11) First Break (00:52:16) Tempest Rising  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  Apr 17, 2025 (01:01:42) Battle Aces  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  TBD (01:12:40) Bionic Bay  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows), PlayStation 5]  |  Apr 17, 2025 (01:17:34) Creepy Redneck Dinosaur Mansion 3  |  [PC (Microsoft Windows)]  |  Apr 22, 2025 (01:29:24) Second Break (01:29:28) Switch 2 Preorders are happening or happened? (01:44:57) Ghost of Yotei gets a release date! (01:52:47) Devolver Digital shares its future strategy (02:01:49) Japan wants to archive its gaming history (02:06:27) Out Run is getting a movie? (02:13:56) There are a lot of video game movies in some state or another... (02:23:38) Wrapping up and thanks (02:26:46) Mysterious Benefactor Shoutouts (02:29:37) See ya!

    2h 30m

About

Longtime friends and games media colleagues Vinny Caravella, Brad Shoemaker, and Alex Navarro share their combined decades of knowledge, expertise, and passion for games with weekly discussions about what they're playing, what's happening in the industry, and whatever else they're up to.

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