05: What's Causing the Crisis in Maine's Public Defense System w/Justin Andrus

Meet Justin Andrus: Executive Director of the Maine Commission on Indigent Legal Services.

In this week’s episode, I speak with Justin about how he is massively improving the indigent defense system in the state of Maine. 

Maine is unique because 100% of their public defenders are contract attorneys, but Justin makes it work.

You’ll learn the ins and outs of public defense in Maine. By knowing the true realities of the system, you’ll walk away feeling motivated to create change.  

Key Topics and Takeaways:

• Problems in the Maine indigent system [6:00]
• Why Maine still has all contract attorneys [10:05]
• How The Great Resignation has affected Maine public defense [14:10]
• Why $80 per hour is still underpaying public defenders [16:05]
• The Lawyer of the Day system and why it doesn’t always work as intended [19:51] 
• Partial indigence [35:05]
• What self-represented people should know [43:43]
• The problems with fines and fees [50:57]

Guests: 

Justin Andrus, Executive Director of the Maine Commission on Indigent Legal Services

Resources:

Maine Commission on Indigent Legal Services https://www.maine.gov/mcils/home 

Sixth Amendment Center Report on Indigent Defense in Maine

Maine Monitor/ProPublica Report on the MCILS issues in the past 

OPEGA Report on Finance Oversight Issues in MCILS

Reports mentioned at 7:42

Memorable Quotes:

“I do think that it is possible to have the structure that provides the necessary oversight and training and quality assurance for contracted attorneys.” (11:18, Justin)

“We need higher wages. Communicating how important it is and for people to understand how important it is that it’s the defendant who is harmed by this.” (19:26, Hunter)

“So the concept of partially indigent is maybe a misnomer. I agree. It doesn’t make a lot of sense on its face as a set of words.” (35:16. Justin)

“It isn’t this mortal combat between good and evil, as many people want it to be. It is individuals trying to do the best for the defendant, for the community, all of these things working in mind.” (38:15, Hunter)

“We are not a bunch of shady people helping evil doers be free to do more evil. And in fact, the vast majority of people accused of crimes are not evildoers at all.” (40:39, Justin)

“Society is safest when the most number of people are having their needs met.” (14:29, Justin)

“The first thing a self-represented defendant should know is don’t be self-represented if you could possibly avoid it.” (44:03, Justin)