120: In conversation with Sabiana Anandaraj: Lessons for a successful second innings

Show notes:

We all need our cheerleaders, the people, who stand by us through thick and thin, who inspire and bring us joy.  The friends who are like family or better. I am lucky to have a few friends like that. One amongst them is @SabianaAnandaraj, whom I have known since my first job in PR over 30 years ago when I was a young mom to two toddlers in Mumbai, and she was the young, independent, go getter who introduced me to the workings of the agency and our mutual clients. We worked together for a short while before life got in the way and we drifted apart - she moved jobs, got married, had kids and I moved to the UK.

It was serendipity that we bumped into each other in early 2007 in Mumbai. The circumstances were wildly different her father was in very ill in hospital and mine was in and out of hospital (the same hospital) as he battled a rare form of Parkinson’s. Sadly, both our fathers passed away in 2007 much before their time. And @SabianaAnandaraj facilitated my unexpected move back to India for a stint to look after my mother. This move would have been impossible without @SabianaAnandaraj offering me a role in the agency she worked for at that time. And the ‘rest as they say is history.’ Today, we have a deeply, fulfilling friendship and our lives are deeply enmeshed (along with the rest of the gang) enmeshed together (in the best possible way).

Getting her on the podcast has been on the cards for a while, to share her amazing work trajectory and her foray into entrepreneurship. But, also to spotlight the reality, that women in their 50s are not done as yet, they don’t suddenly lose their ambition. The dominant narrative is about them being overlooked and written off but some of us are pushing back against the lazy ageist trope. Sabiana and I are both in our mid-50s (soon to be late), have no plans to retire and firmly believe the next decade may be our best as yet Also, I don’t think we are the kind of people who will take kindly to being overlooked! In this free flowing conversation we spoke about our mothers, being old, work, women in leadership, ageism, freedom in the 50s, entrepreneurship, learnings, cheerleaders, staying motivated and much more…..

We still need to talk about female friendships, menopause, empty nest, ambition, aspiration, work-life, second innings, third innings, fulfilment, and definitions of success…… 

Meanwhile, head to the podcast to hear more……

Episode transcript

Sudha: Hi Sabiana. I'm so, so happy to have you as a guest on the Elephant in the Room podcast. We've been discussing this for the longest time, and finally, it has happened. It's good to see you here.

Sabiana: Thanks so much, Sudha. It has been a pleasure. I was really excited when you asked me to be a guest on your podcast. We know each other for decades, have had, n number of informal conversations. I think this is one of our first formal conversations on a platform like this. So, I'm really looking forward to it.

Sudha: Let's get started with the questions. I always ask all my guests. And even though I know you so well, and we've known each other for decades, please introduce yourself for our listeners and tell us a bit about yourself.

Sabiana: In the grand scheme of things, I am the third musketeer in the family lineup.

All the way from Bombay, I am today a 57 year old grown up. My one and only, what do I say? partner in crime is Trivikram. I've spawned two mini me's through him. One is Aria, who's my son, and Kaira, who's my daughter. My entrepreneurial journey started in the year 2020, I must say where I started my rollercoaster journey which I tell you that twist and turns could probably be something that you could compare with a Indian, Bollywood, blockbuster. But after two years now, finally I've settled down and I'm really enjoying the entrepreneurial journey.

Sudha: So, you're enjoying the ride, so to speak.

Sabiana: Yes, that's right.

Sudha: We've discussed this informally a lot of times, and we speak about it. You know, when our parents were in their 40s and 50s, we thought they were really old, but like you just admitted on the podcast that you're 57, and I'm 57, I don't feel very old. Do you feel old?

Sabiana: I don't actually you know, but we must understand that the times are very different Sudha. They came from a time where there was so many limitations, right? I mean, look at the job scene then, look at the job scene now, look at the exposure we have as compared to the exposure they had.

They always looked for government jobs where there was work life balance. Here we are looking at, you know, raring to go even at 57. So, I think it is the times that really defined how you felt. Given the day and age that we are in today. I don't think we feel old because there is so much opportunity that I don't feel I've come to the end of that opportunity, which probably they would have, you know, at 58, they are retired, they worked at government organizations, lived in joint families. I think in their heads, life, had to come to a grinding halt from a professional point at 58.

At 57, I mean, you know, two years ago I just started, being an entrepreneur, a new twist in my career. So, no, I don't feel old at all to answer your question.

Sudha: Yeah, I mean, my mum was 42 when I had my oldest daughter, that is Asmita. And of course, my children show no signs of getting married or settling. And as you said, times are different. And the weight that they felt, I think it was those times where they got married early, had children early, did everything sort of at an accelerated pace and then waited. And I think even the lifespan used to be smaller. We now live longer and healthier than I think they did.

Coming to something that I believe is very true. Do you think people view women differently after a certain age? Personally, , of course, and professionally.

Sabiana: Sudha, I've had different experiences. I think generally speaking, yes, they do. Again, it depends on the times that we are talking about. Professionals our age at that time would be looked at very differently, treated very differently, perceived very differently, judged very differently. Over the years, I think that gap has been bridged to a large extent only for the reason that women have started playing different roles.

In the past, women were playing more housewives and not really sitting in boardrooms. Today you see women are in boardrooms as well. They've broken all glass ceilings. So they are viewed differently, but that gap has been bridged over time. There's nothing that a man can do that a woman can't do.

And I think over time, they've realised that we play a role at home. We look after their parents, our parents, our children, the home, and a successful career as well. So I look at it really differently because my experience has been very, very different. I've worked for organisations, Sudha, where the senior leadership team were all men and I probably was the only woman. But nobody really made me feel that I was the only woman. They gave me equal rights to speak up and so on and so forth.

But I think generally speaking, it has been a struggle. When I speak to the other womenfolk, it has been a struggle for them to get their foot in the door, for them to really get things moving because men, I can't generalise, but there are men who are also very insecure about a woman taking over their seat, which they probably had for years, right? So then all those nuances one does have to face being a woman, but I think slowly things are changing.

Sudha: Yeah. So this is the impact in the workplace. And I think this conversation that we are having, some of it is we are reviewing the journey that we have come on and that journey has not always been privileged, right? We've all struggled through different sorts of, what do you say, exclusions to come where we are today, and we are in a position of privilege.

And I see from the kind of person that you are, Sabiana, I think a lot of women lack that confidence and that clarity and the courage to be able to work to their potential. And I think you have been singularly very focused on that part and you've been, no, I wouldn't say nobody is blessed with that courage, I think you've given yourself that courage, right?

And you've spoken about the impact in the workplace. Are there any specific incidences, you don't have to name your employers, but are there some specific incidences that you can of think of where clearly, you know, the current people in power do not want you to step up or take your rightful position? Have you experienced that?

Sabiana: Yeah. Because the organisations that I've worked with in the past were more male, less female. So I feel it was more male, but it's not that you don't find it with women as well. But coming to your question about whether I felt like that, yes. Particularly in one organisation, which was a very male-dominated industry.

I came in, in a leadership role and, like I normally approach my career or my new job, I tend to understand the organisation, understand the colleagues that I need to work with. I need to get a buy-in, very important for me to get a buy-in from the people I work with, junior, senior, whoever.

So, when I was approaching them one-on-one because it was a male industry in particular—it was the telecom industry, probably you'll guess the organisation—they looked at me with zillions of question marks, so what are you going to come and do? What are you going to really tell us? But shift t